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Panasonic S5 User Experience


herein2020
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9 hours ago, TheBoogieKnight said:

I'm honestly not sure you'll find the great AF you're looking for with Fuji.

I am a Fuji refugee and have form...

I have been shooting Fuji for stills since the original X100 came out and video for the last 3 years.

With the XT3 especially, my workhorse of 2019 and what there was of 2020, with the Fringer adapter and Sigma 18-35mm f1.8, it barely skipped a beat.

Yes, it lost focus a few times, but actually those times were very well rare and there was not a single instance of anything critical.

And since then, the Fringer Pro II came out and has had a firmware upgrade and of course the XT3 has been upgraded with firmware to XT4 spec very recently.

I would be very confident in it. Probably it’s not quite Sony or Canon good, but not far off.

But I don’t wish to go in that direction and may have come up with a solution...

Originally, I was investing in the L Mount system for a number of reasons that had enough advantages over Fuji to warrant the change.

I was going to use the units in a hybrid manner.

Then hands on experience made me revert back to dedicated video units and dedicated stills units.

I’m ping ponging back to hybrid today!

2 reasons...

Reason 1: It seems that native glass is the best way to go for the best AF. Fair enough and it also seems that the zooms are better than the primes. 
Reason 2: The IBIS is better than I thought it would be.

So today, I am going to do a comprehensive AF test with the 20-60mm and the 85mm back to back.

Based on experience so far, I think the 20-60 will win and hopefully prove to be good enough for my needs.

If so, I intend to get a used 24-105mm f4 for the longer range and constant aperture, stick it on the monopod and it will become and remain my ‘movement’ video unit, ie, entrances, exits, confetti etc which make up less than 5 minutes of a typical 9-15 hour wedding, but CRITICAL 5 minutes.

That will then mean 2 other units with primes, can shoot both all stills and static video as in the rest of the day when say people are chatting, getting married etc, but no one is walking about.

The 4th unit will have the kit lens for pure static longer form duty on the tripod.

It’s also a 4 body/4 lens combo rather than the 4 body/7 lens combo I was going with previously.

It all hinges on the walking test this afternoon...

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Right folks, all out of ideas.

Freestanding monopod, 20-60mm and repeated attempts at 20mm, 35mm and 60mm.

4k 50p which is supposed to be best.

Natural profile,

Every combination of speed and sensitivity from the extremes to opposites and everything in between.

Repeated to death.

Human tracking, human and animal tracking, normal tracking...

I can't get one single continually in focus shot of a human subject walking towards the camera, eyeballing the camera.

It shows it's locked on but when the face is blurry and the trees 30 feet behind are going in and out of focus...well we have a problem and I need a solution.

Unless anyone can show me another way, I cannot use this camera for one of it's intended purposes.

For everything else it passes and passes with flying colours, but for up to 10 critical sequences of about 10 seconds each, it doesn't work.

As soon as the subject is still, it's FUCKING BRILLIANT. Well, at least pretty good and good enough. But if they move forwards or backwards, game over.

So I have a couple of options including:

Option A: Use something else for this specific type of capture and that could even be a decent short tele compact with phase detect (assuming such things exist?). Ideally needs to be something that I can match up to Panasonic Natural profile and so could be log (again if any compacts shoot log?).

Option B: Go for something with a larger sensor but without busting the bank (ie, no, a Sony A7Siii is not a great idea for 100 seconds per job of capture!) but what might match up nicely to Panasonic profile footage?

Option C. Go even more extreme and swap out the dedicated static video unit and the filming unit for an entirely different system that could be anything that shoots 4k 50p internally and preferably in 10 bit. Fuji, Canon, Sony new boy are all I can think of that have good or great AF.

Option D. Keep just the single S5 I have currently and the kit lens and keep this as the dedicated video unit. Do something completely different for hybrid. It would need to be; XT4's, latest Canon twins, combo of the two most recent Sony's.

Ideally I JUST WANT THE S5 TO WORK and for 95% of everything, it does but I cannot ignore this 5% that does not.

Any/all ideas welcome! Because I am all out of them. In regard to the S5 and this single specific issue anyway...

 

 

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3 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Right folks, all out of ideas.

Freestanding monopod, 20-60mm and repeated attempts at 20mm, 35mm and 60mm.

4k 50p which is supposed to be best.

Natural profile,

Every combination of speed and sensitivity from the extremes to opposites and everything in between.

Repeated to death.

Human tracking, human and animal tracking, normal tracking...

I can't get one single continually in focus shot of a human subject walking towards the camera, eyeballing the camera.

It shows it's locked on but when the face is blurry and the trees 30 feet behind are going in and out of focus...well we have a problem and I need a solution.

Unless anyone can show me another way, I cannot use this camera for one of it's intended purposes.

For everything else it passes and passes with flying colours, but for up to 10 critical sequences of about 10 seconds each, it doesn't work.

As soon as the subject is still, it's FUCKING BRILLIANT. Well, at least pretty good and good enough. But if they move forwards or backwards, game over.

So I have a couple of options including:

Option A: Use something else for this specific type of capture and that could even be a decent short tele compact with phase detect (assuming such things exist?). Ideally needs to be something that I can match up to Panasonic Natural profile and so could be log (again if any compacts shoot log?).

Option B: Go for something with a larger sensor but without busting the bank (ie, no, a Sony A7Siii is not a great idea for 100 seconds per job of capture!) but what might match up nicely to Panasonic profile footage?

Option C. Go even more extreme and swap out the dedicated static video unit and the filming unit for an entirely different system that could be anything that shoots 4k 50p internally and preferably in 10 bit. Fuji, Canon, Sony new boy are all I can think of that have good or great AF.

Option D. Keep just the single S5 I have currently and the kit lens and keep this as the dedicated video unit. Do something completely different for hybrid. It would need to be; XT4's, latest Canon twins, combo of the two most recent Sony's.

Ideally I JUST WANT THE S5 TO WORK and for 95% of everything, it does but I cannot ignore this 5% that does not.

Any/all ideas welcome! Because I am all out of them. In regard to the S5 and this single specific issue anyway...

 

 

Sorry it didn't work out for you. I just did some more tests today with similar results to yours. Sometimes it works (even with a subject moving forwards/backwards) but it's so unreliable. The worst thing is that when it loses focus it often just gives up and doesn't even try to get it back. If you (or anyone else) finds a solution I'd love to know. I see posts all the time saying it's not that bad but (even after the updates) it's not reliable enough to actually use in a job, unless you have the luxury of multiple (and it would be multiple) takes. It's also massively effected by lighting conditions. 

I'm going to stick with my S1s and add something else. I'll probably wait a few months till the R5/SIII drop in price. The AF on both (especially the SIII) looks remarkable.

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Do you really need to track focus? Could you leave the camera at f11 or something an have a certain part of the walk in focus rather than the whole thing? Especially as you have a couple of cameras filming.

That's what I've always done with my Panasonics. Maybe it won't work for you but sometimes adapting to circumstances can make us realise we were doing something that wasn't necessary before.

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Is manual focus an option at all for this situation?

Because the S-Series of cameras have pretty much the best features for manual focus. they have linear focus and you can customize the amount of focus throw.

They also have the AF+MF, so you can set the camera in AF-S and then just rotate the focus ring to override in to manual focus.

Unfortunately though, still can't punch in while recording.

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I brain-stormed it, slept on it overnight and now have a couple of options...

First of all, I have also read quite a few reports  about how great the AF is now and in certain circumstances, it is actually quite good. But not with a subject moving forwards or backwards. It just isn’t and anyone who says otherwise is smoking something.

But that aside, alternatives because as things stand, it doesn’t work for me and it’s never going to become reliable enough, so...

Option 01 = Sony ZV1 on freestanding monopod purely for entrances, exits, confetti etc. As above, I’m taking maybe 10 x 10 seconds captures per job. The eye AF is reported to be excellent and it’s much cheaper and more compact/lightweight than using a MILC.

Option 02 = a GoPro mounted on the hotshoe of each hybrid use S5. Simply capture any scene flicking between stills and video with the 85mm on one body and the same with the 35mm on the other, plus simply activate either (or both) GoPros set to narrow, for those 10x10 situations.

Both are relatively low cost options when you consider the lifespan of useage is targeted at 3 years or 75 jobs. 

The GoPro option could be quite good as it simply targets whatever I am shooting in terms of stills or video at any given time, but at the same time, it is a pair of GoPros stuck on top of cameras which I’m not so keen on for a number of reasons.

I think the little Sony is the best option and has more flexibility as a camera.

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5 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I brain-stormed it, slept on it overnight and now have a couple of options...

First of all, I have also read quite a few reports  about how great the AF is now and in certain circumstances, it is actually quite good. But not with a subject moving forwards or backwards. It just isn’t and anyone who says otherwise is smoking something.

But that aside, alternatives because as things stand, it doesn’t work for me and it’s never going to become reliable enough, so...

Option 01 = Sony ZV1 on freestanding monopod purely for entrances, exits, confetti etc. As above, I’m taking maybe 10 x 10 seconds captures per job. The eye AF is reported to be excellent and it’s much cheaper and more compact/lightweight than using a MILC.

Option 02 = a GoPro mounted on the hotshoe of each hybrid use S5. Simply capture any scene flicking between stills and video with the 85mm on one body and the same with the 35mm on the other, plus simply activate either (or both) GoPros set to narrow, for those 10x10 situations.

Both are relatively low cost options when you consider the lifespan of useage is targeted at 3 years or 75 jobs. 

The GoPro option could be quite good as it simply targets whatever I am shooting in terms of stills or video at any given time, but at the same time, it is a pair of GoPros stuck on top of cameras which I’m not so keen on for a number of reasons.

I think the little Sony is the best option and has more flexibility as a camera.

I dont know your position of the second camera for entrance/confetti, but i have mount a osmo pocket with a magic arm on my monopod. So i have a second gimbal perspectiv to my main camera for this use

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47 minutes ago, omega1978 said:

I dont know your position of the second camera for entrance/confetti, but i have mount a osmo pocket with a magic arm on my monopod. So i have a second gimbal perspectiv to my main camera for this use

Actually, this is something I tried last year but didn't enjoy the experience of the Pocket so switched to the Action which I much preferred.

However, I made the assumption (doh) that the Action had a 'narrow' mode same as the GoPro. It doesn't so I sold it to someone on here actually.

But otherwise yes, it's the kind of thing I am looking to achieve in principal except in my case it will be the same, principal and back up for all 'entrances, exits and walking stuff' as in the Sony ZV1 (as I'm pretty sure it's going to be), will be on my freestanding monopod in front of me whilst I flick between stills and video clips with a pair of S5's handheld and if the S5's lose focus (on the video side) the Sony footage gets used, but if they don't, I'll use the S5 material.

Then I will extend it's role to second angle most of the ceremony as in keep it rolling for the duration as either a backup I can worst case scenario (if the principal camera had an issue) make a decent ceremony highlights, or as now intended, simply another angle.

My only other issue with the Pocket was I found the whole thing a bit delicate. You can chuck a GoPro in your bag etc but have to be so much more careful with a Pocket and that's something I was aware of and wish to avoid.

Just tested the S5 again before I push any button on a ZV1 and nah, still won't.

Admittedly, I am trying in the worst conditions which are backlit with dappled light leaves causing a distraction and then pure 100% full on sun backlight and then 90 degrees to sun lighting.

Because these are the conditions I mostly have to work with on a wedding day and any piece of kit needs to handle 'real world' use and not conservative testing.

The 20-60 failed every time. Not a single sequence would it keep focus.

The 85mm did much better and only occasionally lost focus, but still not reliable enough. 

Fairly static stuff, even backlit, all pretty good and no complaints for either lens, but the 85mm is better.

I have a theory and could be wrong but it's shooting wide open, because the background is so OOF with the 85, the subject has more contrast.

Well it doesn't, - it has the same contrast, but the background just has much less than with the f3.5-5.6 kit lens.

Plus there's more compression with the 85 so even less contrast.

But unless anybody has a magic pill or another firmware update at some point can fix this (and I doubt it until such time as Panny goes phase), I need to go to another solution.

I think it's a good one and instead of 4x S5's, it's simply a case of 3x S5's + ZV1 for limited but specific use and extending it's useage as a backup/second angle ceremony camera plus will make a good personal/genuine pocket camera.

Only other option I'm considering is the RX100 VA. I had a IV a few years back so have experience with these cameras and actually shot an entire 3 day hybrid capture project in the Faeroe Islands with a single unit, so know it's capabilities.

Price is more or less the same and whole lot cheaper than a 4th S5 with a lens!

I think I'm now sorted in principal.

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29 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Actually, this is something I tried last year but didn't enjoy the experience of the Pocket so switched to the Action which I much preferred.

However, I made the assumption (doh) that the Action had a 'narrow' mode same as the GoPro. It doesn't so I sold it to someone on here actually.

But otherwise yes, it's the kind of thing I am looking to achieve in principal except in my case it will be the same, principal and back up for all 'entrances, exits and walking stuff' as in the Sony ZV1 (as I'm pretty sure it's going to be), will be on my freestanding monopod in front of me whilst I flick between stills and video clips with a pair of S5's handheld and if the S5's lose focus (on the video side) the Sony footage gets used, but if they don't, I'll use the S5 material.

Then I will extend it's role to second angle most of the ceremony as in keep it rolling for the duration as either a backup I can worst case scenario (if the principal camera had an issue) make a decent ceremony highlights, or as now intended, simply another angle.

My only other issue with the Pocket was I found the whole thing a bit delicate. You can chuck a GoPro in your bag etc but have to be so much more careful with a Pocket and that's something I was aware of and wish to avoid.

Just tested the S5 again before I push any button on a ZV1 and nah, still won't.

Admittedly, I am trying in the worst conditions which are backlit with dappled light leaves causing a distraction and then pure 100% full on sun backlight and then 90 degrees to sun lighting.

Because these are the conditions I mostly have to work with on a wedding day and any piece of kit needs to handle 'real world' use and not conservative testing.

The 20-60 failed every time. Not a single sequence would it keep focus.

The 85mm did much better and only occasionally lost focus, but still not reliable enough. 

Fairly static stuff, even backlit, all pretty good and no complaints for either lens, but the 85mm is better.

I have a theory and could be wrong but it's shooting wide open, because the background is so OOF with the 85, the subject has more contrast.

Well it doesn't, - it has the same contrast, but the background just has much less than with the f3.5-5.6 kit lens.

Plus there's more compression with the 85 so even less contrast.

But unless anybody has a magic pill or another firmware update at some point can fix this (and I doubt it until such time as Panny goes phase), I need to go to another solution.

I think it's a good one and instead of 4x S5's, it's simply a case of 3x S5's + ZV1 for limited but specific use and extending it's useage as a backup/second angle ceremony camera plus will make a good personal/genuine pocket camera.

Only other option I'm considering is the RX100 VA. I had a IV a few years back so have experience with these cameras and actually shot an entire 3 day hybrid capture project in the Faeroe Islands with a single unit, so know it's capabilities.

Price is more or less the same and whole lot cheaper than a 4th S5 with a lens!

I think I'm now sorted in principal.

I have the best result in single point mode. now in the new firmware combined with human detection, but not tryed yet.

My second angle camera is the Sony 6400 with powerbank on a free monopod. No record limit and fast reliabel AF.

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I think that @omega1978 suggestion of an a6400 might be a good one. I have an a6500 - which has an older version of the AF system found in the newer a6400 - and it keeps up with people skateboarding around, so I don't think it would have much of a problem with a bride and groom walking down an aisle.

do you still have an X-T3 lying around somewhere???

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1 hour ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

I think that @omega1978 suggestion of an a6400 might be a good one. I have an a6500 - which has an older version of the AF system found in the newer a6400 - and it keeps up with people skateboarding around, so I don't think it would have much of a problem with a bride and groom walking down an aisle.

do you still have an X-T3 lying around somewhere???

I realise the A6xxxx range don't have log but are there any profiles in them to protect highlights while still giving enough latitude in the shadows? There's no problem using FF lenses with these right?

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2 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

I think that @omega1978 suggestion of an a6400 might be a good one. I have an a6500 - which has an older version of the AF system found in the newer a6400 - and it keeps up with people skateboarding around, so I don't think it would have much of a problem with a bride and groom walking down an aisle.

do you still have an X-T3 lying around somewhere???

Yeah the A6500 or A6400 AF is stunning. Not really much use for log on 8 bit anyhow. I really wish Sony would release a cheap 10 bit APSC camera. 

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31 minutes ago, TheBoogieKnight said:

I realise the A6xxxx range don't have log but are there any profiles in them to protect highlights while still giving enough latitude in the shadows? There's no problem using FF lenses with these right?

Many of the Sony a6X00 cameras have LOG profiles, but they are 8-bit 4:2:0, not 10-bit 4:2:2 profiles. They are somewhat compressed a bit at 100Mbps as well.

I think that only the least expensive a6X00 cameras (the a6000 and the a6100) don't have LOG / 4K. Everything from the a6300 on up should have 4K and 8-bit LOG.

There is no problem using FF emount lenses on the crop sensor Sony cameras. Sony calls their full frame lenses "FE" lenses, and calls their aps-c lenses "E" lenses, but you can mount the FE lenses (the full frame lenses) on the crop sensor cameras and they function perfectly.

One Thing To Note (if you aren't familiar with Sony cameras): Sony has a line of A-Mount cameras and A-Mount lenses, and they are NOT compatible with the current lineup of e-mount cameras without an adapter. Also, the adapters that sony has to convert their legacy A-Mount lenses to E-Mount are not great, which is a shame because Sony has some nice legacy A-Mount lenses that are relatively inexpensive compared to their Nikon or Canon counterparts. So avoid A-Mount lenses unless you WANT to deal with adapters and poorer AF performance 😞

You might come across Sony lenses with an abbreviated name that contains SEL or contains SAL. The SEL lenses work on e-mount cameras, while the SAL lenses work on A-Mount cameras. 

As for dynamic range, in addition to the 8-bit slog profiles, there are also the various Cine gammas (cine 1, 2, 3, and 4) which offer more dynamic range than the standard profiles (by compressing the highlights primarily), can be shot at lower ISOs (like ISO 100 or 200), and tend to have cleaner shadows. However, SLOG 2 seems to have about a stop or so more dynamic range than the Cine gammas. The a6400 and a6600 also have HLG profiles but I haven't worked with them on Sony cameras. Gerald undone did a comparison somwhere between HLG, SLOG and Cine 2 (I think).

Final thoughts: Since @MrSMW uses a modified version of the natural profile on his Panasonic cameras, it might be a good idea to use the Leeming LUTs which seem to provide very good "neutral" skin tones. I think there are LUTs for Cine gammas, HLG and SlOG in the LUT Package for Sony cameras.

Ok, one more final thought: Some people say they can avoid a lot of the mess of using slog profiles by either 1) turn saturation all the way up (Dunna did it) or by changing the color mode to ITU 709 (Caleb dslr video shooter). I haven't tried either. 

24 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

Not really much use for log on 8 bit anyhow. I really wish Sony would release a cheap 10 bit APSC camera. 

Yeah, I agree with you on that. I was going to get an X-T3 and say goodbye to sony, but I use the memory slots for stills on my a6500 all the time, and the lack of memory slots on the X-T3 was a deal breaker for me.

On the other hand, since new Sony APS-C cameras generally start at $1,400 and then the Sony 16-55 f/2.8 also costs $1,400, one might just keep their fingers crossed that Sony releases an a7 IV with 10-bit 4:2:2 150Mbps at around $2,000 and pair that with the Tamron 28-75 f/2.8 instead. 

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@MrSMW I'm with @Thpriest do you really need the entire walk in focus? You can't just set up on a tripod, set it to F8 or higher, focus on a point half way up/down the aisle/walk and throw away the softer parts before and after your focus point?  I'm assuming your final wedding videos are far more video than the ones I offer based on the number of cameras alone, but I still would think an entire walk really wouldn't be that interesting. Also I simply use a wider lens like a 24mm which provides even more DOF during things like a walk.

It's been my experience that for things like walks clients just like to see themselves performing the action, it doesn't have to be a razor thin DOF or the entire thing. But it also sounds like your wedding clients have a bigger budget than the ones in my area. In my area the budget seems to end up somewhere between are you kidding me and not even close so needless to say I don't film many weddings.

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Accurate AF is critical in this particular instance.

Sony is the answer as things stand and it’s just a question of which A6000 series or whether the ZV1 suits my needs best.

I am attracted to one of the A6000’s purely because they are APSC.

Every other consideration, ZV1.

The only other option that might interest me would be one of the Fujis and am looking at that today.

 

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14 hours ago, herein2020 said:

But it also sounds like your wedding clients have a bigger budget than the ones in my area. In my area the budget seems to end up somewhere between are you kidding me and not even close so needless to say I don't film many weddings.

Out of curiosity (and totally off topic), I wonder what couples EXPECT to pay in your area? Been a LLLOOONNNGGGG time since I last shot a wedding (that was stills on film, just to give some perspective of what "long time" means).

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9 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I am attracted to one of the A6000’s purely because they are APSC.

Firstly, I think if you go the Sony route, the best cameras for your needs would be either the a6400 or the a6600. Don't quote me on this, but I think that one (or both) of them have no record limits in 4K, are better at resisting overheating, and have a larger battery. Sony LCD screens tend to get dim when recording in 4K to help reduce overheating. I am not sure if this dimming has been reduced / eliminated with the a6400 or the a6600.

The older cameras (a6300, a6500) would overheat and have a very dim (and highly reflective) screen. But hey, what they lacked in terms of monitoring, they made up for in being a great mirror 😬

a6000 and a6100 are 1080p only (as far as I can remember).

If one does experience overheating, it has been claimed by others that using either a battery grip or a dummy battery will help reduce overheating. 

The main problem I think you might run in to with the a6X00 bodies is what lens you are going to get. The 16-55 f/2.8 G is a great lens but it costs $1,300 🤬

The kit lens is horrible (16-50 f/3.5-5.6 pz). Maybe it is usable at f/8, but there are so many sample variations you might have to buy four and return three of them before you can find one that works well at f/8.

The other options are the 18-135 f/3.5 - 5.6, and the older 18-105 f/4 which some people like because of the power zoom feature. Don't know if it is parfocal nor do I know if it breathes heavily. I would imagine if it is a PowerZoom lens that it would be parfocal, but then again... Sony.

If you want a prime, the 50mm f/1.8 OSS (the aps-c version, not the full frame version) is quite good. But it comes to 75mm full-frame equivalent, which is kind of an odd focal length. 

I don't know how the 30mm f/1.8 OSS and the 35mm f/3.5 macro do. I think they are pretty good though.

Avoid the older 20mm f/2.8 and the 16mm f/2.8 as they aren't designed to work with the newer autofocus system, so they are slow to focus and will just leave you crying.

And finally, you might want to check out this video when you have a moment just so you get some perspective of what Panasonic AF is like compared to Sony AF. Both the a6400 and the a6600 should have equal AF performance to the a7 III used in this demonstration. Might even have BETTER AF since I think the a6600 has improved tracking over the a7 III (don't quote me on that).

Go to the 9:15 mark to watch the Autofocus tests, the comparisons with Sony are near the end of the autofocus testing section.

 

 

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Thanks @Mark Romero 2

I saw that video recently when researching Panasonic AF.

Otherwise made up my mind and it's ZV1.

The A6000 range is creeping up in size for the body (over the dinky ZV1) and then again with the lens...and then ends up being either large fast zooms or small prime choices...and we're back into building a kit again. 

It might be the right choice for some needs but it's not the right one for me.

As above, it's the sensor I have been using for static capture anyway plus used an RX100 V to capture clips and produce a 5+ minute highlight reel.

My need is less than both of the above and though in an ideal world I'd have 4k 60p and a full frame sensor, but there has to be compromise somewhere and this 5% requirement is where it's going to be.

Time to get back to the S5!

It did very well in DPReviews recent test, - best for stills and video and had it not been for the AF... 

They scored it third for ergos but I think they said splitting hairs in that regard.

Send my Sigma 56mm f1.4 back today. Lovely lens in many regards, but doesn't stand up the Panasonic 85mm f1.8 which IMO is night and day better...which bodes well for the rest of the f1.8's whenever they get announced.

Still toying with the idea of an S1 for the static stuff as used prices are quite decent, but we'll see...

 

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