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sanveer

2019: Are we Finally There???

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For the longest we have been debating the quality difference between smartphones and Point and Shoots and DSLRs/ ILCs (based on computational photography to compensate for the smaller sensor and thus poorer dynamic range and low light, apart from detail and sharpness). It's stupid to compare the quality of photos from Pixel 3 and 24MP ILCs simply for the reason that those have very different pixel counts. But for the Same Pixel count, the difference the Pixel and MUCH larger camera sensors is practically inexistent. Here I compared the GH5s, the A7Sii, the Pixel 3 and the Pentax Q. The Pixel 3 did surprisingly well (I am guessing these are solely JPEGs), and the Pentax Q was rather terrible. So the whole soft plastic lenses of Smartphones doesn't seem to hold water. 

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=sony_a7sii&attr13_1=pentax_q7&attr13_2=google_pixel3&attr13_3=panasonic_dcgh5s&attr15_0=jpeg&attr15_1=jpeg&attr15_2=jpeg&attr15_3=jpeg&attr16_0=100&attr16_1=100&attr16_2=55&attr16_3=160&attr126_2=2&normalization=full&widget=1&x=0.893640338567055&y=0.777062638323769

 

Now, Sony has another sensor in the offing which will probably make it to Smartphones in early 2019. The sensor is 38MP (1/1.8") and has Triple Native ISOs of 50, 50 and 5000. It is also created for use with Dual Sensor or multi sensor setups. It seems to have some new Dual Bayer pixel setup which I am guessing will cause a mild resolution loss, removing the need for down sampling for improving low light. It also has 8-bit, 10-bit and 12-bit RAW options for video (and 24fps 10-Bit HDR for photo). The Huawei P20 and Mate 20Pro are already photography beasts (I prefer the Mate 20's low light to the Pixel 3). With improved low light and higher resolution than 10MP, this new sensor does seem to be taking the fight to the high end Point and Shoots' court. The video on the new iPhones also seem to be in (non 10-bit) DSLR territory, so if a smartphone can process better HDR and use the 10-bit in video, it could finally be a year when we seem to have finally bridged the gap.

@androidlad could probably help us with the complete sensor details. 

https://m.gsmarena.com/sonys_38mp_imx607_sensor_specs_leak_could_end_up_in_the_huawei_p30_pro-news-34667.php 

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

Huawei has been putting out impressive smartphones this year, but it seems that their Kirin 980 still lags behind the SD 855 in some key areas - SD can do 40K60p and can also produce bokeh effects for video and will probably do HDR video as well.

Samsung is sticking to their lowest possible mpx count sensors, which I think is a smart idea, since you lighten the load for the CPU and the pixels can be as big as possible. However, Mate 20 PRO sensors seem like a very good bunch, but the Kirin CPU limits them to 4K30p, they started pushing a non-standard nanoSD card and they've also succumbed to the ridicules curved display hype (adding unnecessary fragility to a very expensive phone).

This 38mpx sensor looks very good since it is also bigger than what Samsung has been using. Shame on Google though, for creating their Pixel phones that have such a limited availability and then keeping their impressive camera software exclusive to that small bunch of phones - what a close-minded strategy (it should be a OS-wide feature).

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37 minutes ago, Dan Wake said:

will in your opinion the 2019 be the year of 8k prosumers camera?

Not 8k, but 5k and 6k, perhaps. Mostly because the delivery standard has been set at 4k by Netflix and so many others. 5k and 6k only add more flexibility in framing and other things. Also 5k RAW or 10-bit could be great for high speed sports and action photography, especially on smartphones (most flagships of which currently hover around 12MP). 

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1 hour ago, sanveer said:

Not 8k, but 5k and 6k, perhaps. Mostly because the delivery standard has been set at 4k by Netflix and so many others. 5k and 6k only add more flexibility in framing and other things. Also 5k RAW or 10-bit could be great for high speed sports and action photography, especially on smartphones (most flagships of which currently hover around 12MP). 

Thx. For curiosity is it a difference noticeable if in some shot I crop a 2,5k Into a 4k frame than upscale to 4k again? Would they spot it easly?

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12 minutes ago, Dan Wake said:

Thx. For curiosity is it a difference noticeable if in some shot I crop a 2,5k Into a 4k frame than upscale to 4k again? Would they spot it easly?

Some guy on YouTube was upscaling 1080p with reasonable success. I know that one of the Bond films (Skyfall?) had 2.7k Alexa footage upscaled to to 4k rather successfully.

If the dynamic range, artefacts and noise are within control, I don't think it should be an issue. 

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4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Depends on what you mean by "prosumer"?

Sub $3K 8K ILC? Then no. Not in 2019, or even 2020

Actually once it trickles down to Smartphones, then probably yes. The Exynos 9820 can already do 8k ("...encoding and decoding of 8K videos at 30fps.) 8k could be used for super HDR in high res photos (8k bursts of sports or action photography). Also for VR and AR (most of which aren't that sharp when viewed at closer distances in 2k and 4k on headsets).

The whole 8k sensor thing seems strange. I already find 4k TVs disturbingly strange. 8k would make it seem almost indistinguishable from reality if the colour and other aspects are there too (60-120hz?)? It's almost like a conspiracy to do something very strange. 

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As misguided as spec wars are, they do create a market for older models that are good enough and that get discounted officially or on the used market after the new generation is out. It is just up to out psychology to accept the products that fulfill our needs and not our wants for the newest and the best.

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I'm not getting paid at the moment to make videos, so when I decided to upgrade I got disappointed that Canon R is fragile, not very interesting and expensive lenses, the Sonys are still lacking 50p 4k and a tilty swively screen and the Panas, DPAF. At the end I decided to get an iPhone XR and some moment lenses to try the DOP effect and damn if it's not surprising how versatile is.

I made a video for the work with a Zhiyun gimbal and everybody enjoyed the content, nobody cared how it was shot or the depth of field. Also I've been taking portraits for my colleagues for Iinkedin and social media and the computational thing with an app like focos is good enough. Phones are already there and the only way I see myself now buying a 1" sensor camera is if they include a mic input and some depth sensor in it. The software on the computer side needs to start using this information too.

I'm going to wait and see for a year how this develops but I got lazy after this upgrade and every time I see the Nikons and Canons being pushed on youtube I want to buy less and less a big camera.

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24 minutes ago, Ivko Pivko said:

I'm not getting paid at the moment to make videos, so when I decided to upgrade I got disappointed that Canon R is fragile, not very interesting and expensive lenses, the Sonys are still lacking 50p 4k and a tilty swively screen and the Panas, DPAF. At the end I decided to get an iPhone XR and some moment lenses to try the DOP effect and damn if it's not surprising how versatile is.

I made a video for the work with a Zhiyun gimbal and everybody enjoyed the content, nobody cared how it was shot or the depth of field. Also I've been taking portraits for my colleagues for Iinkedin and social media and the computational thing with an app like focos is good enough. Phones are already there and the only way I see myself now buying a 1" sensor camera is if they include a mic input and some depth sensor in it. The software on the computer side needs to start using this information too.

I'm going to wait and see for a year how this develops but I got lazy after this upgrade and every time I see the Nikons and Canons being pushed on youtube I want to buy less and less a big camera.

I can completely get what you're saying. While I love ILCs, sometimes it's too much to carry for a Short Trip, regardless of how tiny the ILC is. Therefore I am hoping that 2019 sees much better smartphone cameras for photos and also for video. I usually feel iPhones are grossly overrated in the photo and video department, but this last batch had been pretty amazing at both. And the FilmicPro Log V2 seems quite promising to be honest (though the LuT seems to be too harsh on the Dynamic Range).

If a smartphones gets good photos (dynamic range, low light and zoom), and video (Log Profile, good dynamic range and high bitrates even if it's video a paid App, and preferably 10-bit or 10-bit in an 8-bit wrapper) I would like yo pick up one. 

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20 minutes ago, sanveer said:

If a smartphones gets good photos (dynamic range, low light and zoom), and video (Log Profile, good dynamic range and high bitrates even if it's video a paid App, and preferably 10-bit or 10-bit in an 8-bit wrapper) I would like yo pick up one. 

4

Red has tried and somebody else will get it right. It's bound to happen and camera makers should react. When a phone can get 4k 50p, a mic input, streaming capabilities, LOG, editable depth of field and some kind of interchangeable lens system for less than an RX10IV or RX100VI it's hard to justify the expense at an amateur level.

Edited: Especially when you get a fantastic everyday tool that can literally make coffee (Siri makes me coffee with my cheapo machine and a connected socket) 10 minutes more of sleeping every morning!

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IMG_0083.thumb.JPG.13b77c1b6431786cb30691c9e91f340a.JPG

 

Yeah I just got my Apple XS and I am blown away farting around the house, the weather here just sucks, I am amazed as to how much better it is than the iPhone X I traded in to get it. I haven't done anything yet with the new Filmic Pro. I have it all, not used it yet. I just got my Moment Anamorphic in the mail today. So with the Moment Tele lens I already have, and the Stedicam Volt I ought to be in pretty good shape. Probably going to need a battery solution and a mike solution also.

Right now It is the only camera I even own. I sold all my camera gear, lenses and all to get my Dually truck up and running right. Throwing about 4000 dollars into it. Moving south, going to the Myrtle Beach area in South Carolina first. Not sure where I will end up. Kind of exciting to be honest, and scary a bit also. Probably happen the first of the year.

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11 hours ago, Ivko Pivko said:

Red has tried 

And failed miserably with the Hydrogen. To be fair to RED, their first few cinema cameras were also about disrupting the market than actually having a completely usable profuct.

 

9 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I am amazed as to how much better it is than the iPhone X

Until the iPhone X, all iPhone photo and video was grossly overrated. This one though (and more importantly with the Filmic Pro App) is pretty stellar. It has a very similar sensor to the last 3 generations of the Samsung S and Note series (from the S7). Which means that this sensor is similar to the 1/2.3" sensor on the DJI series (which has about 12.5 stops of dynamic range, even without HDR with dual exposure). Plus this has much faster autofocus (helping with time at hand for HDR to combine information from more frames).

The FilmicPro V2 had shown that this type of sensor (with a completely open API, something Samsung is not famous for), can easily bypass 12 stops under the right algorithms. This hints that with the next generation sensors (and may be 10-bit 4-2-0 video), smartphone can easily reach 13 stops of video dynamic range.

 

9 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Right now It is the only camera I even own. I sold all my camera gear, lenses and all to get my Dually truck up and running right. Throwing about 4000 dollars into it. Moving south, going to the Myrtle Beach area in South Carolina first. Not sure where I will end up. Kind of exciting to be honest, and scary a bit also. Probably happen the first of the year.

I am also planning to sell the last of my filmmaking gear and move to smartphones. Hopefully 2019 has great news for filmmakers.  

11 hours ago, Ivko Pivko said:

Edited: Especially when you get a fantastic everyday tool that can literally make coffee (Siri makes me coffee with my cheapo machine and a connected socket) 10 minutes more of sleeping every morning!

I wouldn't use AI to do things. Smart IoT profucts are best avoided. 

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11 hours ago, sanveer said:

And failed miserably with the Hydrogen. 

 

I didn't wanted to say it. I'm sure once they have the supply chain in control they'll try a second time, improving the mistakes and maybe getting rid of the holographic screen to reduce the price.

 

11 hours ago, sanveer said:

The FilmicPro V2 had shown that this type of sensor (with a completely open API, something Samsung is not famous for), can easily bypass 12 stops under the right algorithms. This hints that with the next generation sensors (and may be 10-bit 4-2-0 video), smartphone can easily reach 13 stops of video dynamic range.

2

The new update with the XR is simply unbelievable. I wish I had it for the video I recorded for my work.

 

11 hours ago, sanveer said:

I am also planning to sell the last of my filmmaking gear and move to smartphones. Hopefully 2019 has great news for filmmakers.  

1

We're three now getting rid of our big heavy stuff counting with @webrunner5 , 2019 trend???

 

11 hours ago, sanveer said:

I wouldn't use AI to do things. Smart IoT profucts are best avoided. 

1

Just coffee with my dripping coffee machine, on-off after five minutes and some lights that change the temperature and dim to let know my children that it's time to relax and get ready to go to bed. No smart speakers eavesdropping all conversations, appart from Siri in the mobile of course, but that now is unavoidable.

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37 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

..whatever..

C'mon @Kisaha , don't Brawley us. A shift in the industry marks either a point were manufacturers enter in high gear and make our tools better to avoid the bleeding or abandon ship. It's going to be interesting at least.

And remember, mobile market has reach saturation, they can grow on some aspects like video now, that lights the fire under traditional camera manufacturers (Sony fails at mobile by now outside of sensors) at their low-mid end cameras as they did previously with point and shoots. Bloggers, instagramers and influencers (hate that word) could very well soon skip 1" sensor cameras and mirrorless to stay mobile.

On the other side, when you got horrendous quality first films or serials "shot on mobile" (as I remember with digital in cinealta's Session 9) suddenly you find the quality good enough for some productions. 

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