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Z Cam E2 will have ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FPS in 4K??

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35 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Oh I can say it is an interesting camera. And I like the form factor. And I like the look of the above Video. ProRes is a nice addition. But on paper right now it is 2x the price of the PK4. Hard sell for me right now.

It is funny you say that because I was just putting numbers together earlier because I was just wondering the same thing.

To get a cheap all day usable camera set up would cost about $685 more. $2123 for the Pocket and $2808 for the E2. That doesn't include an articulating screen for the P4k. If that is a must have (it is for me) then you are talking a $494 difference ($2314 for the P4k and $2808 for the E2). So for $500 more you get 4k 120, and possibly 15 stops usable DR and a small form factor. Is it worth it? I think so, for others probably not. The DR tests will be huge and  also reliability testing. I would be scared to bring the P4k on a paid job right now. I don't know if I should be scared or not to bring an E2. I'm never scared to bring a GH5 to a shoot. I would certainly pay another $500+ for a camera that I know won't unexpectedly shut down in the middle of shots!

 

P4k - $1295

Core Power Edge (reported 3.5 hours run time) - $260

Core Power Edge (reported 3.5 hours run time ) $260

Smallrig Cage - $99

Samsung T5 1TB - $185 (Amazon Warehouse)

SmallRig T5 mount - $24

TOTAL - $2123

 

E2 - $1999

Smallrig Cage - $59

DSTE 2X NPF970 - $32 (reported 3.5 hours each battery)

DSTE 2X NPF970 - $32 (monitor)

NKI SolidPod - $389

Samsung 860 EVO 1TB - $138 (Amazon Warehouse)

Feelworld F5 - $159

$2808

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300 bucks of the PK4 is Resolve Studio. Camera really cost 999 bucks. Probably be 800 bucks used in not long. So twice as much the way I look at it. Maybe you already have Resolve Studio. I would trust the PK4 more on a job than the E2 I think. I see the E2 more like something someone built in their garage thing, at least as of now..

 

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@FreshGiant It’s an easier decision for me as I already have everything to get this camera up and running. The only concern is reliability.

3 hours ago, androidlad said:

 

4K 120fps readout mode uses 10bit ADC for speed, this is very low precision with around 2EV higher noise floor compared to normal readout modes that use 12bit ADC.

There are no free rides... but I feel they are striking a good balance. From what I’ve seen at least the noise looks somewhat filmic as opposed to the more usual digital confetti.

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18 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

To be fair you can run the Pocket4K off NPF970s as well with the £10 small rig plate and the DC cable so you can knock off a big saving with those 2 PowerEdge batteries in that cost comparison.

yep! Or the tilta npf base plate for around £100!

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48 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

More expensive without a doubt. 4k 120 is not really worth it for me at the moment. 15 stops is though.

Yeah but what makes you think that BMD can Only get 13 stops of DR out of the BMPC 4K and some we never heard of company in a sense is getting 16 stops out of the same sized sensor, maybe even using the Same sensor? And apparently Panasonic can't do it either on the GH5, GH5s or Olympus to boot..

Only cameras I sort of know of that have 16 stops or more is Red, and they really do tend to spread the shit pretty thick on DR figures. 16 Real stops is one hell of a lot of DR.

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1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah but what makes you think that BMD can Only get 13 stops of DR out of the BMPC 4K and some we never heard of company in a sense is getting 16 stops out of the same sized sensor, maybe even using the Same sensor? And apparently Panasonic can't do it either on the GH5, GH5s or Olympus to boot..

Only cameras I sort of know of that have 16 stops or more is Red, and they really do tend to spread the shit pretty thick on DR figures. 16 Real stops is one hell of a lot of DR.

The sensor spec show it is capable of this performance. Why no real time AI in current camera as? Why no built in CGI like smartphones can do? The Z Cam reportedly has both of these capabilities. So perhaps they are using a more capable processor? Red, Blackmagic, Panasonic... are not gods. I believe the lack of features might be due to holding these things back for gen 3, 4 and 5... etc.

 

I recall see a Z Cam video where they demonstrated face thinking and eye enlargement. Granted I would never use such features in most circumstances. But it could make for some cool horror or scifi fx... in camera!

 

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It should be using the Sony IMX294CJK sensor. That is Maybe the same sensor that is in the GH5s, heck the PK4, even the Kinefinity 4K. 3 more stops than everyone else is getting in m4/3 is sort of a miracle. And at 10bit. We all know what ProRes can do, and Raw is @12 bit, 13 stops of DR. Hey I hope it is true, hope for the future. But I really doubt anyone is holding back, especially on a m4/3 sensor size.

 

Sensor Type

4/3" WDR CMOS Sensor

Sensor Size

17.3 x 13 mm

Effective Pixels

10.28M

Dynamic Range

13 Stops (ZLog) / 16 Stops (with WDR activated)

 

Video Format

4096 x 2160 @ 59.94 / 50 / 29.97 / 25 / 24 / 23.98 fps
3840 x 2160 @ 59.94 / 50 / 29.97 / 25 / 24 / 23.98 fps
3696 x 2772 @ 59.94 / 50 / 29.97 / 25 / 24 / 23.98 fps
1920 x 1080 @ 59.94 / 50 / 29.97 / 25 / 24 fps

Max Variable Frame Rate

120 fps for 4096 x 2160
120 fps for 3840 x 2160
59.94 fps for 3696 x 2772
240 fps for 1920 x 1080

Max Bit Rate

230 Mbps for 4096 x 2160
230 Mbps for 3840 x 2160
230 Mbps for 3696 x 2772
200 Mbps for 1920 x 1080

Color Bit Depth

10 bit (H.265) / 8 bit (H.264)

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Why didn't Panasonic or Black Magic include 4k 120fps? 

I think Z cam is a new company with very little to lose. Panasonic could have done more with the GH5S. We'll see when they release downloadable footage in the next few days though. Would definitely be nice. 

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30 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

But I really doubt anyone is holding back, especially on a m4/3 sensor size.

I don't know about holding back, but it's all about priorities, I think. Z Cam is a bleeding edge company. They make 360 cameras and are actively working on integrating AI into their cameras. Z Cam has a smaller community, and many owners at this point expect bugs and workarounds--it's the price of using bleeding edge.

Blackmagic is focused on bringing cinematic imagery at a low cost: they care more about color science and integration into pro workflows than they care about high frame rates and next gen tech. Their target audience is more likely to have learned on film than Panasonic or Z Cam. The P4k is also significantly cheaper than the other cameras, the fact that it even competes spec-wise is impressive.

Panasonic is orders of magnitude larger than either company, and needs to compete with the other giants (Canon, Sony, Nikon), both today and tomorrow. Their products need to have near 100% reliability, and be easy for consumers to use. A single bug could kneecap initial reactions to a product, permanently damaging their reputation. Why spend the R&D money on 4k 120 if Sony isn't, and when that money could go towards QA?

Of those three companies, it seems to me that Z Cam has the most incentive to innovate with technology. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Z Cam ends up with the best specs.

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8 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

To be fair you can run the Pocket4K off NPF970s as well with the £10 small rig plate and the DC cable so you can knock off a big saving with those 2 PowerEdge batteries in that cost comparison.

I was literally thinking the same thing. Used to rig up the OG Pocket and would get through most day shoots with 2 batteries. 

2 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Why didn't Panasonic or Black Magic include 4k 120fps? 

I think Z cam is a new company with very little to lose. Panasonic could have done more with the GH5S. We'll see when they release downloadable footage in the next few days though. Would definitely be nice. 

Because the Z Cam is a stripped down camera brain that uses external accessories instead of internal camera features. They also haven't needed to, as their offerings have exceeded expectations based on features and price. 

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6 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

It should be using the Sony IMX294CJK sensor. That is Maybe the same sensor that is in the GH5s, heck the PK4, even the Kinefinity 4K. 3 more stops than everyone else is getting in m4/3 is sort of a miracle. And at 10bit. We all know what ProRes can do, and Raw is @12 bit, 13 stops of DR. Hey I hope it is true, hope for the future. But I really doubt anyone is holding back, especially on a m4/3 sensor size.

 

Sensor Type

4/3" WDR CMOS Sensor

Sensor Size

17.3 x 13 mm 

Effective Pixels

10.28M

Dynamic Range

13 Stops (ZLog) / 16 Stops (with WDR activated)

 

Video Format

4096 x 2160 @ 59.94 / 50 / 29.97 / 25 / 24 / 23.98 fps
3840 x 2160 @ 59.94 / 50 / 29.97 / 25 / 24 / 23.98 fps
3696 x 2772 @ 59.94 / 50 / 29.97 / 25 / 24 / 23.98 fps
1920 x 1080 @ 59.94 / 50 / 29.97 / 25 / 24 fps

Max Variable Frame Rate

120 fps for 4096 x 2160
120 fps for 3840 x 2160
59.94 fps for 3696 x 2772
240 fps for 1920 x 1080

Max Bit Rate

230 Mbps for 4096 x 2160
230 Mbps for 3840 x 2160
230 Mbps for 3696 x 2772
200 Mbps for 1920 x 1080

Color Bit Depth

10 bit (H.265) / 8 bit (H.264)

P4K/TERRA 4K/E2: IMX294CJK

GH5S: IMX299

WDR mode is a multi-exposure blend, similar to RED's HDRx.

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Regarding DR, it's largely determined by the sensor's ADC bitdepth. Sony sensors typically use 12bit ADC in video mode, which means it cannot deliver more than 12EV of dynamic range without off-chip processing or other tricks, such as temporal/intraframe NR, HDR (Quad Bayer and/or Multi-exposure) or downscaling.

12EV is more in line with real world testing from Cinema5D lab tests using a standardised method and SNR threshold.

Fujifilm is more honest with their DR claim of 12 stops in F-log/Eterna DR400.

ALEXA/AMIRA's ALEV III sensor uses dual 14bit ADC readout that delivers 14EV of DR.

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2 hours ago, androidlad said:

With Quad Bayer HDR, it's possible.

Yeah but I don't think you can compare HDR DR to, ehh what will I call it, regular DR. Any camera with 10bit and a Log profile can do HDR.  Panny GH5 is a prime example. Wiki:" When HDR content is displayed on a 2,000 cd/m2 display with a bit depth of 10-bits per sample it has a dynamic range of 200,000:1 or 17.6 stops". Eh that is a pretty damn bight TV!

So claiming 16 stops of DR is sort of misleading if true.

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