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Alexei

Buying Canon XC10 in 2017.

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Hi! What do you guys think , is it smart to buy XC10 now as I want to have an all round camcorder for my street scenes? Years ago I used to shoot with a Canon SX 1 IS in video mode and then I searched for a perfect frame in that particular video clip. What I really liked and I still like those skin tones in my old SX 1. This new XC10 reminds me of SX1: fixed zoom lens from wide to tele , articulated screen , Canon colours ) , no everheating. Sometimes I don't shoot video for video, it's a lot of fun to search for a frame that I wouldn't be able to capture using just a photocamera. And a question to Andrew, please, please, publish your XC10 review! Thanks in advance! 

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

I honestly think in 2-3 years time when we are all done to death with cobbling together different lenses and bodies and interfaces and all the other hooch looking for perfect systems then we'll all end up buying camcorders again.

The XC10/15 has a lot going for it in this respect. 

Everyone I know who has been sceptical about it and tried it has found it quite liberating to just have a one box solution that - when you look beyond the specs - just makes decent images and makes them without fuss. 

Obviously they aren't without their issues as you'll find if you have a search on here so whether this iteration of the concept is the right one at the right time I don't know.

Canon have the wherewithal to make a Super 35 version of it with L optics with a constant 2.8 with a FF equivalent (not that old chestnut) of 18 to 300mm, retail it for 5K and it would probably be the last camera most of us would need or buy. Which of course is precisely why they won't do it! 

I tell you who might though and that's JVC if they used the LS300 as a basis. 

I've been using a G7 effectively as a camcorder this week with just one small zoom lens on it and relishing the speed and simplicity of the restriction rather than fretting about it.

So, yes, I think if you just want to get and shoot do what you've described then the XC10/15 is not going to get in your way. In that regard, it has to be a smart choice!

But....

If you're in that area, I'd also take a good look at the Panasonic FZ2000.

Its a lot cheaper, faster lens (at the long end), much longer reach, has NDs, LOG, 5 axis IS, 10 bit very good stills extraction, much cheaper media, 10 bit 4:2:2 HDMI out....

The downside is that in 4K, its cropped to about 35mm FF equivalent (here we go again) which may or may not be a deal breaker for your application.

 

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Ah, a fellow ex-SX1 IS shooter! Those were the days. One of the first digital cameras with 1080p recording. But I basically bought it for the range after having seen:

Super home videoey vibe though. I did hack it with CHDK for all sorts of things. But what I really was missing is manual focus control (you'd have to rotate the small dial on the back) and as soon as lighting conditions got a little wonky, it really was a noisy mess. At the time the 600D/T3i and hacked GH2 were the latest and greatest... went with the Panasonic and with the exception of the D5300, I've been a loyal m4/3 shooter. Still though, I do like the simplicity of a more all-in-one system. So... for daily stuff in and around the house and whatnot: the LX100. For travelling around: the FZ1000. Video shoots: the GH4 has been great for productionly style work, but the G7 brought better sensor performance, the GX80 the sensor stabilization and G80 dealt with some of the quirks of the GX80. But there's something to say for the straight out of camera colors and DualPixel AF from Canon... but that's like the only thing they got going for 'em. The XC-series is really polarizing. I didn't understand it at first and still isn't something I'd go for, but some people learned to appreciate it. In the end though, from everybody that got excited to get one, did anyone actually kept theirs? I'm pretty sure most moved on already. XC15 addressed a couple of things, but I wouldn't be that surprised if they call it quits on the concept from now on. If you like the camera and image though, don't let it stop you. But indeed, as well look at the FZ2000, that looks really interesting as a flexibile allrounder.

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Regarding Panasonic I have a GH4, been fighting with it for the whole year in terms of colour science, I even downloaded GH5 raw photo samples from dpreview, I still don't like their skintones even in raw. A few days ago I tried reversed super macro with a GH4 and panaleica 15 f 1.7 and it was quite interesting. In that super macro mode nobody cares about the colour, it was quite a lot of fun. Last year I actually did try an XC10 during a broadcast show here in Moscow but only in 1080p as I didn't want to buy a CFast card only to test a camera. I liked the result but now I need to test it in 4K for that again I need a CFast card. 

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I had luck to buy XC10 last October for some 1600 euros (with a CFast 128 GB), and I am happy to use it for "gun & run", documentary, interviews, travel and similar things. I expect to use it in next 2-3 years at least. Like you, I was struggling with GH4 last year. Even I found that XC10 is not difficult to pair with Blackmagic cameras (Pocket, Micro and Production). Its 4K (with C-log) is, in my opinion, better in quality than FHD.

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My list of cameras with colour science that I like from best to good:  analog film 70, 35, s16, s8 mm, Panavision Genesis, Sony F65, Arri Alexa, Blackmagic Pocket with custom debayering, Canon cinema line.                          

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I'm considering liquidating all of my Canon gear just to downsize and do things a bit more casually, but the one camera I won't sell is the XC10. It's too useful. 

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20 minutes ago, Kubrickian said:

I'm considering liquidating all of my Canon gear just to downsize and do things a bit more casually, but the one camera I won't sell is the XC10. It's too useful. 

Really? Your beach piano video is one of the nicest C100 videos I've seen. Are you getting out of video production entirely?

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18 hours ago, mercer said:

Really? Your beach piano video is one of the nicest C100 videos I've seen. Are you getting out of video production entirely?

Thanks man! No I moved to LA and got a full-time job doing the video work for a software company. I don't need a crazy amount of freelance gear anymore - I am looking at a more compact solution that can handle photo and video work in one. Maybe a Fuji X-T2 or something new announced at NAB.  

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4 hours ago, Kubrickian said:

Thanks man! No I moved to LA and got a full-time job doing the video work for a software company. I don't need a crazy amount of freelance gear anymore - I am looking at a more compact solution that can handle photo and video work in one. Maybe a Fuji X-T2 or something new announced at NAB.  

Yeah the Fuji looks nice. If you don't mind Nikon the D500 is a good hybrid as well... heavy 4K crop though, but their Flat Profile is similar to CLog in some ways. 

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I hope that Canon doesn't drop the XC_* line. My XC-10 is a little marvel of right compromises.

Wish list is quite simple:

a) Servo zoom (could be an add-on with its own batteries)

b) A wider and faster lens

c) A more complex flash shoe (with audio and HDMI video out) plus a bottom strip with all i/o plus power.

So you would have:

a) XC-10 plus add-on servo

b) XC-15 Never understood the concept

c) XC-20 (the 10, plus the servo and I/O)

d) XC-30 with a wider-faster servo lens and the I/O

The price point is easy to figure out, both the XC-10 and 15 drop by 500$USD

And the new 20 is a couple of hundred more than the XC-10 while the 30 is a $1,000

Stretching the wish list would be a bare XC with a mount, only an on/off button, no side-grip. Only a HDMI and USB plus a back or under plate for batteries and holes galore. Controlled by wi-fi or USB. At $3,000 it would make a killing as an expendable camera.

Going against the Canon faith would be to add support to the new hi-speed SD card, but this is asking too much.

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On 3/25/2017 at 3:09 AM, BTM_Pix said:

Canon have the wherewithal to make a Super 35 version of it with L optics with a constant 2.8 with a FF equivalent (not that old chestnut) of 18 to 300mm, retail it for 5K and it would probably be the last camera most of us would need or buy. Which of course is precisely why they won't do it! 

 

A lens which is S35 coverage and the FF equivalent of 18-300mm f2.8 (so a 12-200mm lens!!!) would be ******HUGE******!!!! 

And would be very very very expensive.

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4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

A lens which is S35 coverage and the FF equivalent of 18-300mm f2.8 (so a 12-200mm lens!!!) would be ******HUGE******!!!! 

And would be very very very expensive.

I think I must've meant 18-200 

So we can downgrade that to merely massive and very very expensive!  

I did actually have some rational basis for how that could be achieved but I'm fucked if I can remember what it is now.

 

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I think an XC20 with an EF-M mount would be a killer of a cam. I would also love for some of these Mark IV rumors to be true and implemented into the XC20. It already has great 1080p, but some nice 3K recorded to SD cards or CF cards would be a warm welcome as well. 

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XC10 is great, you just really need to test the limits of the camera. Obviously tricks like ETTR help a ton. C-LOG is clean and looked really good to me. I don't own the camera anymore but want to buy one again. It is just a really really fun camera to shoot with. Liberating coming from a very large camera. I would be curious what the new Wide DR profile looks like.

Positives:

Really light weight, Very small/compact and discrete, High bit rate 4k images, great zoom lens, really nice auto focus, deep depth of field making exterior shots, etc, really easy to focus, that excellent Canon color.

Negative:

1080 codec is weak, most of the internal profiles look pretty bad, lots of noise reduction - kinda mushy, lowlight is pretty bad, hard to achieve shallow depth of field with wide shots, expensive C-FAST cards only.

I would say for daylight shooting, this camera rules. Seems like a great stock footage camera, probably great on a Ronin or small SteadyCam.

 

Bike1.jpg

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5 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

I think I must've meant 18-200 

So we can downgrade that to merely massive and very very expensive!  

I did actually have some rational basis for how that could be achieved but I'm fucked if I can remember what it is now.

 

You're still looking at a lens which is likely tens of thousands of dollars, and needs rod support and probably can't be hand held by anything less than arnold schwarzenegger himself

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1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

You're still looking at a lens which is likely tens of thousands of dollars, and needs rod support and probably can't be hand held by anything less than arnold schwarzenegger himself

If I ever remember the rationale for this I'll pop back into this thread and update it.

For now, all I've come up with was it being related to heavy medication.

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1 hour ago, BenEricson said:

XC10 is great, you just really need to test the limits of the camera. Obviously tricks like ETTR help a ton. C-LOG is clean and looked really good to me. I don't own the camera anymore but want to buy one again. It is just a really really fun camera to shoot with. Liberating coming from a very large camera. I would be curious what the new Wide DR profile looks like.

Positives:

Really light weight, Very small/compact and discrete, High bit rate 4k images, great zoom lens, really nice auto focus, deep depth of field making exterior shots, etc, really easy to focus, that excellent Canon color.

Negative:

1080 codec is weak, most of the internal profiles look pretty bad, lots of noise reduction - kinda mushy, lowlight is pretty bad, hard to achieve shallow depth of field with wide shots, expensive C-FAST cards only.

I would say for daylight shooting, this camera rules. Seems like a great stock footage camera, probably great on a Ronin or small SteadyCam.

 

Bike1.jpg

Always loved that video. Probably my favorite XC10 video.

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