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Andrew Reid

Panasonic GH5 - all is revealed!

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2 minutes ago, ricardo_sousa11 said:

I was crazy about getting this camera as it was revealed, but as time goes, and theres more and more videos with it, theres something really off on the image. I cant really tell what it is, but everything looks strange for me and just not appealing for some reason...I guess ill keep waiting and see how it gets from now on, but Im definetly not getting one any time soon.

I can't get mine till at least August otherwise I'd already have one...but then I saw enough for what I need early on...and a lot of videos regarding other features don't affect my decision one way or another...I will say though, that it takes me a while to "learn" about a camera...and I don't judge anything seriously from somebody posting something from a camera they've had for only a few days...with incomplete FW...all I need to see initially is the potential for my needs...as I come from a production design background, an important aspect of an  image one  admires, produced by an Alexa or a Red  or a Sony F35, is that every aspect of that image has been designed  to produce that lovely look...nothing has been left to chance...I simply can't dismiss this camera for myself, based on what I've seen online...of course all our needs are different

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39 minutes ago, Arikhan said:

@jcs

 marketing" is in my eyes much more interesting at this point as the assumptions and postfactic claims done to this point on the GH5.

Another very interesting aspect is that this kind of reactions are predictable. The same process (hate from fanboys against criticism and other opinions and points of view) with a Pana camera was a review of Shaun Hurlbut and the GH4. Taking a look at this camera, Hurlbut - as a experienced, successful and well known filmmaker - said (really worth to read, because 3 years later Hurlbut was proven right):

..etc. @andy lee comments on these facts too and advocates the GH4 trying to explain Hurlbut "cinematic look"...:-))

It's interesting how the crowd of pistoleros tries to bash and scream a reputable filmmaker (Shaun) down, because expressing a opinion from professional point of view and not based on unexperienced fantasies of sub 2.000$ mirrorless shooters...

Simply try to read some comments and always consider: Who is Hurlbut and who are the self proclaimed GH4 lawyers? Mostly people who never could afford a Cx00 or any other more expensive pro camera in their hands...This posting is a good lession in "credibility" and worthless opinions...

I tend to trust a reputable pro filmmaker (Hurlbut) by far more than self proclaimed "experts" -.even if they scream very loud on internet.


What's your point?

I see people excited about great value for money and a great niche tool that fits their needs and workflow, with both its limitations and advantages when it comes to other competing cameras.

Frankly, I don't care what some fiction cinematographer says about mirrorless -- if I was shooting narrative features, of course I wouldn't be using GH4/5/whatever. Neither I would use 5D..

Hurlbut sounded biased from the get go too with all this "out of the box" nonsense, which is a typical consumer attitude (5D doesn't have Magic Lantern "out of the box" either). Besides, as far as I recall Hurlbut did another test of VLOG where he sounded much more positive.

 

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1 hour ago, Arikhan said:

@jcs

Full ACK. That's why this kind of "backdoor marketing" is in my eyes much more interesting at this point as the assumptions and postfactic claims done to this point on the GH5.

Another very interesting aspect is that this kind of reactions are predictable. The same process (hate from fanboys against criticism and other opinions and points of view) with a Pana camera was a review of Shaun Hurlbut and the GH4. Taking a look at this camera, Hurlbut - as a experienced, successful and well known filmmaker - said (really worth to read, because 3 years later Hurlbut was proven right):
 

..etc. @andy lee comments on these facts too and advocates the GH4 trying to explain Hurlbut "cinematic look"...:-))

It's interesting how the crowd of pistoleros tries to bash and scream a reputable filmmaker (Shaun) down, because expressing a opinion from professional point of view and not based on unexperienced fantasies of sub 2.000$ mirrorless shooters...

Simply try to read some comments and always consider: Who is Hurlbut and who are the self proclaimed GH4 lawyers? Mostly people who never could afford a Cx00 or any other more expensive pro camera in their hands...This posting is a good lession in "credibility" and worthless opinions...

I tend to trust a reputable pro filmmaker (Hurlbut) by far more than self proclaimed "experts" -.even if they scream very loud on internet. 

 

Well, first of all, it's Shane Hurlbut, not Shaun. Second of all... he also mentioned that you should 'shoot with the camera and determine for yourself if it fits into your workflow', as we find ourselves in an 'exciting age and place in digital capture, where every camera that is developed does have a place in the industry'. After all, we all have different wants and needs, there's no absolute right or wrong. It all depends on the person you ask and the project it is for. Admittedly he regarding the GH4 he mentions 'what came out of the box did not live up to my expectations'. Yet, a year or so later he goes out on a quest to find the best lenses to match the GH4 in a three part elaborate series and finds the Voigtländer 25mm f/0.95 on which he comments 'F2.5 on this 25mm is amazing. This looks stunning. If I were to do a movie with this camera, I would be shooting on this glass'. Which is a much fairer approach... problem solving, rather than just giving up after one try. Plus, of course you're going to like RAW out of a BMPCC or perhaps 5DmkIII better (I wish there was a GH5 that did ProRes/DNG RAW, even if 1080p only too). But you gotta realize what that entails (size, features, workflow) and what the camera is and isn't.

Anyways. We're all grown ups with a certain level of common sense. I bet we can all figure out what would work for ourselves. Again, there's no absolute right or wrong, there's something that works for you that doesn't really work for others and the other way around. Such is life.

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1 hour ago, Arikhan said:

@jcs

Simply try to read some comments and always consider: Who is Hurlbut...

A guy sponsored by Canon, and probably the only professional cinematographer who would choose to shoot with the C500 as an A cam over the Alexa on a Hollywood production. No relation between these two facts, of course...

His claim that the 5D will always trounce the GH4 no matter the setting was and still is completely ridiculous. I believe that he was genuine in his dislike of the GH4 footage, but his stance there is super subjective, to put it lightly. 

For the record, he came around on the GH4 when V-Log L was released and said it created very nice skin tones in 10 bit. 

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1 hour ago, Fritz Pierre said:

 

Probably because the only light was his work light and the arc from the welder?...really bothered by the blown out highlights though!!!:glasses::glasses: (sorry...could not resist!)

Those Sam Kolder transitions, though. Everybody is doing 'em now these days, all them zooms and twirls. I mean, maybe it can be done tastefully, but this was just tacky as hell, no? Everytime a Casey Neistat rises, we get hordes of copycats that just do the same for the sake of being hip... but with poor execution.

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What made the 5D3 (h.264 and RAW) so useful, and all Canons, especially the C series for paid work, is the ease at getting good skintones regardless of lighting. The GH4 can create nice skintones (and so can the A7SII for example), however in general, it's a lot more work (we have all these cameras). The reason ARRI is so loved for paid work is the same reason: great skintones (and highlights) with the least amount of effort (and more forgiving if for example exposed wrong, which happens to everyone).

I just tried grading some GH5 footage in log: 

What's impressive is I was able to quickly get decent skintones using ARRI LUTs. For that brief test I also noted some 'edginess' with green and magenta, which is a common problem with cameras (and much less of a problem with Canon and ARRI). This means that if I correct for the face to look good, some other part of the scene goes too magenta or too green. This is also a problem with multiple faces in a shot- I noticed this issue in RED Dragon/Weapon shots with otherwise excellent skintones in the Netflix series Into the Badlands. A group shot had some faces looking correct, and some looking too magenta and others too green.

From my brief GH5 grade, it looks like a nice improvement in color science up from the GH4. All of the clips were in natural light, which is basically a black body source (as is tungsten, etc.), which is a continuous spectrum light and the easiest/best for skintones. Indoor mixed lighting, as well as 'global illumination' reflectance from the environment (colored bounce sources in the scene) separate the best cameras from the rest of the pack. This is where Canon and ARRI still have the lead (Red, BM, Sony, Fuji, and Panasonic are catching up). A good way to really know how the cameras perform is to shoot with multiple cameras at once, as Zacuto has done in the past. Ideally the grading should be done be the same person or 'eye', otherwise as with the Zacuto shootouts personal tastes/experience level adds an unhelpful bias.

The fairest test would be to set all the cameras to the correct WB, set them all to the same Log or Rec709, expose them correctly, then compare the results. One shouldn't need some sort of 'magic' camera settings for each camera to produce a good look. Again, Canon and ARRI skintones can look great with little or no tweaking if desired. That's the true test of a camera- how many people can get great skintones, which means default settings that just work and are forgiving of exposure variance (meaning colors don't change with exposure very much, another common issue that makes grading a challenge or time consuming).

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53 minutes ago, Cinegain said:

Those Sam Kolder transitions, though. Everybody is doing 'em now these days, all them zooms and twirls. I mean, maybe it can be done tastefully, but this was just tacky as hell, no? Everytime a Casey Neistat rises, we get hordes of copycats that just do the same for the sake of being hip... but with poor execution.

The filmmaker did kick the arse out of them. 

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1 hour ago, zetty said:


What's your point?

I see people excited about great value for money and a great niche tool that fits their needs and workflow, with both its limitations and advantages when it comes to other competing cameras.

Frankly, I don't care what some fiction cinematographer says about mirrorless -- if I was shooting narrative features, of course I wouldn't be using GH4/5/whatever. Neither I would use 5D..

Hurlbut sounded biased from the get go too with all this "out of the box" nonsense, which is a typical consumer attitude (5D doesn't have Magic Lantern "out of the box" either). Besides, as far as I recall Hurlbut did another test of VLOG where he sounded much more positive.

 

And just as he said this, "hate from fanboys against criticism", he proved there are also those that are out to knock the GH5 every step of the way. I see it on multiple forums. So it clearly cuts both ways.

There will always be those that will refuse to admit that a newly released camera could possibly be better than their current 'pride & joy'. This 'protective' behavior is not seen just with cameras, but in many other areas of electronics, particularly high end video displays. 

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2 hours ago, Arikhan said:

I tend to trust a reputable pro filmmaker (Hurlbut) by far more than self proclaimed "experts" -.even if they scream very loud on internet. 

Shane's test was pretty fair and reflected what he looks for in a cinema camera: http://www.thehurlblog.com/cinematography-panasonic-lumix-dmc-gh4/

The most important thing he said was rent or test the camera for yourself after explaining his viewpoint. The GH4 can look cinematic- use a diffusion filter and do the necessary gamma and color tweaks in post to give a more film-like response, but that's extra work not required for an Alexa or C500 (or 5D3 RAW), for example. I think that's the big missing link in camera reviews is the amount of effort required to make a camera look filmic or skintones to look pleasing, and why there's so much variance in footage online. Canon and ARRI are popular because they require the least amount of work. The GH5 appears to be moving closer to being able to get straight out of the camera (SOOC) shots looking nice- that's good progress (log with a simple LUT is fair to call SOOC if no other grading is needed since that takes less than 1 second to apply).

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3 minutes ago, Davey said:

The filmmaker did kick the arse out of them. 

Of course there's the 'J'adore tes transitions' in the comments, because you know, people are simple beings. But to me it's like people aren't inspired to find their own thing, they just copy what others do. It's not just the transitions... of course the video itself is a wink to/rip off from Phil Holland's 'Forged':.. it's like we're losing originality.

 

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Just digging into 6K Photo Mode files.  Shot with the SLR Magic 2x primes (jury is still out on them for me...lot's of character but they are slow and not very sharp wide open, so they get even slower).  No V-LogL is a bummer but it's not a deal breaker.  Pretty good option for anamorphic, IMO.  The fact that they even have it available is pretty neat.

 

 

6.jpg

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12 minutes ago, noone said:

That link to Shane Hurlbut's article and while under his name starts off "This is David Weldon, Shane’s assistant."      Just saying for accuracy.

He does state that it's based on Shane's impressions though, and when Shane wrote the V-Log skin tone latitude test article he echoed the sentiments about the default settings GH4.

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It's a team review with Shane's input: http://www.thehurlblog.com/cinematography-panasonic-lumix-dmc-gh4/

Quote

Overall Thoughts

After our extensive testing of the Panasonic GH4, we have some thoughts on the platform. The image that this camera creates looks and feels more like a broadcast video camera than it does a cinema camera. Where this camera felt most like it was showing us a video look is in the night ISO test. Our model almost appeared to be jumping off the screen, as if she were standing in front of a green screen wall. There was very little falloff on the edges of her body, so she ultimately looked extremely sharp, where the background fell way out of focus.

I’ve heard a lot of people are interested in using this camera for documentary style shooting because of its price point, the flip out LCD screen and the ability to shoot 4K. The drawbacks to the platform are when shooting anywhere over ISO 400, you begin to introduce an unnatural noise pattern. Shane’s feelings on the noise were that it didn’t look natural like film, but it had the sporadic array that a broadcast camera would create.

“But it shoots 4K, Shane and Dave! And it’s under $2000!” You’re absolutely right – it is an inexpensive camera that delivers 4K, but is it worth it? I think back to NAB this past year when Michael Cioni of Light Iron Outpost gave a presentation at the Arri booth that highlighted understanding what your deliverable file format needs to be. If you do not have the need for a 4K deliverable, why would you sacrifice areas of dynamic range, variable frame rates, etc., just to have 4K? Think about what the needs for your project are, not just the price of the camera and its overall resolution.

Our Final Thoughts

As far as using the Panasonic GH4 on a feature film or commercial project, we have felt through this test that it does not fit where Shane likes to work. The GH4 does have its place and is still defining what that place is, but this camera does not have a filmic feel. It looks and feels like a broadcast video camera.

Our best advice? Rent the Panasonic GH4, do your own tests, shoot with the camera and determine for yourself if it fits into your workflow. We are in an exciting age and place in digital capture, where every camera that is developed does have a place in the industry. It is up to you to find where it fits in your projects!

The GH5 is looking a lot better so all good :)

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3 hours ago, Cinegain said:

Those Sam Kolder transitions, though. Everybody is doing 'em now these days, all them zooms and twirls. I mean, maybe it can be done tastefully, but this was just tacky as hell, no? Everytime a Casey Neistat rises, we get hordes of copycats that just do the same for the sake of being hip... but with poor execution.

Got your point. Not a youtuber here, though. To my eyes, it simply fits the subject.

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3 hours ago, Cinegain said:

Of course there's the 'J'adore tes transitions' in the comments, because you know, people are simple beings. But to me it's like people aren't inspired to find their own thing, they just copy what others do. It's not just the transitions... of course the video itself is a wink to/rip off from Phil Holland's 'Forged':.. it's like we're losing originality.

 

What do they have in common? The set? ; )

Apples to oranges here as far as aesthetics concerns... And naturally, I don't even mean the acquisition side, really ;-) (some dozens of thousands in-between don't make much of that difference, subject-wise, like it or not : )

I guess, both of them (a short-film-test vs just-a-test, by this chronological order) match the market segments within. Some fairness on the tools, after all :-)

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2 hours ago, Neumann Films said:

Just digging into 6K Photo Mode files.  Shot with the SLR Magic 2x primes (jury is still out on them for me...lot's of character but they are slow and not very sharp wide open, so they get even slower).  No V-LogL is a bummer but it's not a deal breaker.  Pretty good option for anamorphic, IMO.  The fact that they even have it available is pretty neat.

 

 

6.jpg

Lovely image. Can I order a 16X20? 🙂

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3 hours ago, Neumann Films said:

Just digging into 6K Photo Mode files.  Shot with the SLR Magic 2x primes (jury is still out on them for me...lot's of character but they are slow and not very sharp wide open, so they get even slower).  No V-LogL is a bummer but it's not a deal breaker.  Pretty good option for anamorphic, IMO.  The fact that they even have it available is pretty neat.

Do you know a method how to delete all those CA without having RAW-option?) Its a lovely image, but we're all seen what has been done to get it look like this)

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Well l do respect Shane a lot, but I really don't think many of us on here are going to be trying to match our cameras to the Reds, or Arii's we are also shooting with!

The GH5 is a 2000 Dollar camera! Is it a Arri Alexa, a Sony F55, a Arriflex that Sam Peckinpah shot, with one off lenses, in slo mo from hell, well no. It is probably the best camera that 90% of us could Ever afford, new or used! Can it sort of look like a Canon 5D mkIII in raw, BMPCC in Raw, you bet your ass if you can grade worth a shit. 

This is finally, a no F-ing excuses, for the masses camera. This is a camera just like the Panasonic AF 100A I just bought, that you can stop pissing about the camera and blame your own ass if it comes out good or not, both shooting with it, and editing, grading with it.  Well I do wish it had the AF 100's form factor but, this is the Camera where the Rubber meets the road thing.

Time to put up or shut up. It is here to take advantage of, and go out and do it! It really is that damn simple. Make It So, or find another job, or another hobby. Excuses are in the Past Tense with this camera with all the updates they plan in the summer to have you can install. Hmm, end of rant today!  :blush:

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