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Guest Ebrahim Saadawi

Canon 1DX-II vs. 1DC - Which one would you buy?

What's a better buy?  

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  1. 1. What's a better buy?



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Guest Ebrahim Saadawi

If you were buying one of these, which one would you go for. 

Would you go for the older but more filmic, more DR 1DC (C-LOG) with a slightly lesser crop, or go for the brand new kid offering the 4K60p/DPAF/Touchscreen/120p? 

I am torn between the two. That organic image of the 1DC in C-Log just makes it so hard.

While with the 1DX-II being a better camera in everyway, you're restricted to the known and baked-in Canon Picture styles on your 4K footage (Standard, Portrait, Landscape, Neutral, Faithful, Cinestyle, Marvel Cine, etc) They are very well established colour-science profiles and known for pretty colours/contrast from the 5DII days but still... 

-It Will be a video camera. Stills are of no matter here. (and 12fps 16mp RAW of the 1DC is enough for me :) )

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

Not sure what you mean by more filmic. The 1DX Mkii can be quite cinematic in the modern sense. So really you are looking at the old look verse new. Personally, I am extremely happy with the results. Low light is quite good, 4k 60p, AF amazing. I'll go out on a limb and say if you can't get it done with a 1DX Mkii then the problem isn't the camera. And honestly, I find the files to be quite robust. It's a dam good camera... 100% Pro grade. DBOUNCE APPROVED!

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What sort of stuff do you shoot? Does DR trump AF/60fps?

I'm having a similar debate with myself.... I'm hoping Canon just give us C-log before I need to make my decision.... Other than C-log and 10bit, it is more or less my perfect camera.

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You can create custom picture profiles with a custom gamma curve, custom color control, etc. using Canon's Picture Style editor ( http://www.canon.co.jp/imaging/picturestyle/editor/ ). I recently compared my custom log-ish picture prolife to Technicolor Cinestyle on the 1DX II and they were very similar. I will compare with the C300 II CLog when I have time. I suspect CLog highlights will be better than these two custom profiles, but not by much in terms of highlight clipping. Canon Log 2 has much better highlight control.

The 1DX II has better low light noise than the C300 II- Canon seems to be doing NR on mid-frequencies, leaving the finer noise alone, which ends up looking more like organic film grain than digital noise.

The A7S II can go much higher in ISO to provide perhaps a 'newsworthy' look and fun demos, however the image looks highly digitally processed and not very organic with little high frequency noise and lumpy blobs, etc.

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I'd go for the 1D C.

The only thing the 1D X II has in its favour is the AF.

The 4K/60fps produces unmanageably large files and will be extremely difficult to edit on any current CPU, besides I'd rather shoot 120fps 2K if it were slow-mo I was after. 60fps doesn't really look that dramatic and there are a ton of cameras that can do 60fps at lower resolutions for a fraction of the cost.

Moving onto the 120fps mush on the 1D X II, obviously just about any other cheaper camera shooting 120fps is a better choice for that, there's nothing special about the image in comparison to the A7S II's 120fps that I can make out so far.

Any other advantages over the 1D C apart from the AF? Nope.

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I'm thinking the 1DXII.
Anything that helps me nail focus gets my vote, especially given that I don't want anything extra strapped to what is already supposed to be a stealthy R&G type camera. I also feel that 60fps is more accepted for feature narratives that 120fps but that's debatable. If anything, I'd miss the extra latitude of Clog but I'm willing to trade that for focus. After rocking the C100 MkII for the past 6 months full time, this is the camera I would move towards next. I want big fat files for the films I lens and I'm willing to accommodate for the storage. Like the 1DC, this camera seems to finally have put a racehorse within reach.

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I prefer 1DC but for low budget VFX film 1DX II could be huge, it does in-camera lens distortion correction in addition to vignette and chromatic abberation correction, it basically takes a Canon EF lens into near Master Prime quality.

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5 hours ago, karoliina said:

Easy choice. I did it already and bought 1DX mark II. 

I use Technicolor Cinestyle profile in the 1DX2 and it works just fine. Check my other post about those.

Cinestyle flat cat frame is attached.

 

B19I5267-1-2.jpg

Some Cinestyle testing: 

 

Looks good to me. I hated using Cinestyle on the 5d mark III but it seems to play much nicer with the 1DXII's codec.

cat-1.jpg

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5 hours ago, karoliina said:

Easy choice. I did it already and bought 1DX mark II. 

I use Technicolor Cinestyle profile in the 1DX2 and it works just fine. Check my other post about those.

Cinestyle flat cat frame is attached.

 

B19I5267-1-2.jpg

 

hello friend, thank you for sharing~!

if you dont mind me asking... what kind of cat is this?? i recently became obsessed with getting a serval so anytime i see a cat on a leash im curious! is that an F2 Savannah or something similar? ?

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We’ve been discussing this very topic on DVXuser for several weeks, but I’m not here to bore you with all the details and footage comparisons involved in our lengthy debate.

Suffice it to say that both cameras offer astounding color reproduction, noise performance, and resolving power. Log or no Log, these are both great cameras with the 1DX II improving in three key areas: rolling shutter, 4K60P, and DPAF.

Although C-Log would have been an unlikely but welcome addition to the 1DX II, it’s a very capable camera in the right conditions and in the right hands. Naturally, without C-Log it has more contrast and less DR (3-4 stops) but it also has a very filmic image owing to the MJPEG codec and 4:2:2 subsampling it shares with the 1DC. Just think of the two cameras as two different kinds of film stock suited for different kinds of grades or looks.

We should also not forget that filmmakers like Abraham Joffe have shot beautiful footage on the 1DC without using C-Log:

https://vimeo.com/85900123

In fact, Joffe has stated that he prefers shooting the 1DC using the picture profile settings and not C-Log:

http://www.untitledfilms.com.au/2013/11/shoot-edit-deliver-4k-now/

You can check out all his 1DC films including the National Geographic TV series, Tales By Light, to get an idea of what is possible outside of C-Log:

https://vimeo.com/79268261

https://vimeo.com/128699210

I’m not suggesting that I agree with Joffe on C-Log, but it’s a different perspective from my own and I find that Joffe’s approach is very compelling considering the results it has produced on the 1DC.

Moreover, instead of choosing between these two cameras, I would be tempted to hold off and wait at least 4-5 months for any upcoming 1DC II announcement. That will combine the best of both worlds. After all, Canon has good reason to withhold key cinema features such as C-Log and Super 35mm mode from the 1DX II and we shall soon know what they have in mind . . .

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Guest Ebrahim Saadawi

The notion about different film stocks is what's bothering me. These cameras have a different emulsion. And I simply like the 1DC one better. More filmic to me. While the 1DX-II ''emulsion'' looks modern, high-end, Red footage, it actually really looks like Red footage but with ''nicer'' colour. 1DC looks like F35/it's probably due to just the picture profile sharpening and contrast, or grain, highlight rolloff, blacks, or sensor architicture, I don't know... it's just a different film stock. 

Thanks SO much for the Cinestyls samples. It gets the contrast to a very LOG like area so you can add LUTs and preserve maximum contrast, but remember it has no more DR.

****Would someone do me a favour and post full JPEG grabs from the 1DxII in Neutral/Faithful/Cinestyle (preferablly) going from zero to +7 sharpening step by step focused outside the window on any wide scene/buildings/street/anything really? Take one shot with the 120p mode too to give us impression on how it looks, plus a normal 1080p ALL-I 24p frame to compare to the 120p image. 

This would help my buying decision enormously seeing 100% frames from the camera at different sharening levels and if it's close to the organic 1DC. 

Just a ramp up the sharpening settings. including the Fine Detail PS Sharpening ''radius and intensity'' settings I'd like to see what it does. Prolost in all tests please (absolute minimum contrast, saturation (yes minimum) and 0-middle colour tone 

Would be extremely grateful. It's not a light investment. With Local customs it's in Red Raven/Scarlet Dragon territory actually. So need to be absolutely sure on how it works and looks as it'll be my A camera for years to come for my company. Planning to snatch up a Canon C100 original as a B-cam (very cheap) and will cut with the 1Dc seemlessly (C-Log and s35 1080p mode is IDENTICAL to C100 image). But finding a B-cam for the 1DX II sounds quite hard. How will I find a colour-matched still-high-resolution camera to the 1DX-II? Not willing to shoot C100 and 1DX-II in Standard EOS profile! And not willing to spend time grading either to match. C-Log will allow that. And S35 1080p mode will allow it even further. Another point you guys forgot for the 1DC. It takes a 3K 1.5x crop and downsamples it to beautiful 1080p with C-Log, very high quality. That again opems the door for the 1DC to be used in documentary/weddings/interviews while on the 1DX-II the only good mode is the enormous 4K one. So will be specialized for beauty/glamour shots. 

 

On 5/18/2016 at 5:23 AM, karoliina said:

Easy choice. I did it already and bought 1DX mark II. 

I use Technicolor Cinestyle profile in the 1DX2 and it works just fine. Check my other post about those.

Cinestyle flat cat frame is attached.

 

B19I5267-1-2.jpg

Some Cinestyle testing: 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I'd go for the 1D C.

The only thing the 1D X II has in its favour is the AF.

The 4K/60fps produces unmanageably large files and will be extremely difficult to edit on any current CPU, besides I'd rather shoot 120fps 2K if it were slow-mo I was after. 60fps doesn't really look that dramatic and there are a ton of cameras that can do 60fps at lower resolutions for a fraction of the cost.

Moving onto the 120fps mush on the 1D X II, obviously just about any other cheaper camera shooting 120fps is a better choice for that, there's nothing special about the image in comparison to the A7S II's 120fps that I can make out so far.

Any other advantages over the 1D C apart from the AF? Nope.

The only thing the 1DXii has is the images are in focus when you shoot them. :) No biggy.

1 hour ago, Matthew19 said:

This 1dxII footage at 120 fps is gorgeous. I mean just beautiful. 

 

This does look seriously beautiful. A lot of people will be picking up this camera… Regardless of the price, the image is just great.

Mean while in sony land. :grin:

 

Sony.png

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37 minutes ago, Ebrahim Saadawi said:

This would help my buying decision enormously seeing 100% frames from the camera at different sharpening levels and if it's close to the organic 1DC.

hear hear

/regarding the poll and ebrahim's original question (What's a better buy?), im divided, and the [electronic looking] sharpening mentioned above IS a big factor to me. is dpaf sicc as heck? yes but ill take the image quality im looking for over "new" bells and whistles seven days of the week

i keep seeing 1dxii footage that makes me have feelings like:

• this is canon h264 mush on steroids

• ykno why people take steroids? because they WORK

• damn those highlights are clipping hard

• wait this looks nicer~! dynamic range is not that great tho...

lets get to the bottom of this. for all the people who want a high dynamic range nonsharpened logish image with great color, lets determine the limits of the 1dxii. if thats not what youre after, and youre happy delivering footage that looks a little bit more, uhm, ~contemporary~? then its a great camera already. which it should be for six thousand f------ dollars 

1 hour ago, Kino said:

[a bunch of smart stuff]

welcome dude! im gonna check out that boring thread on dvxuser lol 

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3 hours ago, kaylee said:

hello friend, thank you for sharing~!

if you dont mind me asking... what kind of cat is this?? i recently became obsessed with getting a serval so anytime i see a cat on a leash im curious! is that an F2 Savannah or something similar? ?

Yes she is Savannah. Not F2 though but F6 SBT. We are breeding Savannahs and she is our queen.

I am obsessed with getting a serval too. Unfortunately we now have some buraucratic obstacles to overcome on that matter as suddenly from nowhere the ministry imposed new regulation (not law) that prohibits ownership, import and reselling of any other animal than cat (felis catus) or dog. This is against the EU-law, but the guys in Finland thought they know better, "we have to put stop to it" -kind of thing and they imposed probably the strictest regulation in whole EU.

Best Regards,

Karoliina

8 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I'd go for the 1D C.

The only thing the 1D X II has in its favour is the AF.

The 4K/60fps produces unmanageably large files and will be extremely difficult to edit on any current CPU, besides I'd rather shoot 120fps 2K if it were slow-mo I was after. 60fps doesn't really look that dramatic and there are a ton of cameras that can do 60fps at lower resolutions for a fraction of the cost.

Moving onto the 120fps mush on the 1D X II, obviously just about any other cheaper camera shooting 120fps is a better choice for that, there's nothing special about the image in comparison to the A7S II's 120fps that I can make out so far.

Any other advantages over the 1D C apart from the AF? Nope.

If I already had 1DC, I would hesitate to switch. However since none were available at reasonable price, only at much higher price than 1DX2 costed as new, the 1DX2 was obviously a great upgrade for myself as my previous Canon was 5D2. 

Someone should post 1DC vs. 1DX2 comparison video and also 4K frames on 1:1 resolution side by side. I have not seen much frames from 1DC and it is hard to compare to a camera that there is zero units in the country and only few units World wide and most 1DC videos on youtube are old 720p.

Can you make such test to enlighten us. 

 

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23 minutes ago, karoliina said:

Yes she is Savannah. Not F2 though but F6 SBT. We are breeding Savannahs and she is our queen.

I am obsessed with getting a serval too. Unfortunately we now have some buraucratic obstacles to overcome on that matter as suddenly from nowhere the ministry imposed new regulation (not law) that prohibits ownership, import and reselling of any other animal than cat (felis catus) or dog. This is against the EU-law, but the guys in Finland thought they know better, "we have to put stop to it" -kind of thing and they imposed probably the strictest regulation in whole EU.

Best Regards,

Karoliina

omg that is awesome thanks for letting me know!!!! wow a Savannah breeder, i guess im not too surprised tho after seeing that picture~! shes beautiful :) 

unfortunately im dealing with something similar here in california ?  truth is, if servals were legal here as pets, id already have one~! i found this amazing breeder and everything.... ive done YEARS of research, like, i know what im getting into...

more than one of my smart friends has pointed out that literally no one (besides us lol) knows the difference between an f1 savannah and a serval walking down the street... so i could just lie, which is becoming an increasingly appealing proposition. mind you, it is 100% legal to keep seven pit bulls in a 400 sq ft apartment... thats ok here

i wonder what people told salvador dali when he went places with his ocelot...?

12878019_f520.jpg

DaliPetLeopard_2799151c.jpg

"One of the most popular accounts of Dalí and Babou is that of the painter bringing the wild cat into a Manhattan restaurant and tethering it to his table, causing great alarm to a fellow diner. To appease the woman's fear, Dalí told her that Babou was nothing more than a normal cat which he had 'painted over in an op art design.'"

 

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The 1DX II can shoot 16 fps continuous RAW (mirror up- Live View), at full resolution: 5472x3648 (5K). Add 50% Twixtor (etc.) to bring to 24fps. Could use ACR to get full DR and color etc. Could be useful for some shorter shots where max detail and DR is needed.

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