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Andrew Reid

Time to step up - Panasonic GH5 must go 6K Super 35mm to compete in 2016

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49 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

I know. Try reading the post

I did, it's a pipedream wishlist.

Yes, M43 lenses would still work on an s35 sensor, with some kind of crop mode (both video AND stills)... That is not a business strategy that any sane company will adopt though. The GH5 will be optimised for THEIR lens range and their loyal non video centric users who will have a stack of m43 lenses.

It would be a PR disaster. A bunch of features that don't even work with their lens line up. "Shoot 24mpx stills, unless you have our lenses, in which case "shoot 16mpx lens"... yea, great sales pitch.

If you want to have pipe dreams, fair enough... Just ask for a completely new lines of cameras, with a range of Panasonic s35 lens.

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

I find these considerations interesting. 
It is a bit like your list for santa this year andrew.:blush:
Some things bother me a bit, I mean that 8bit is not really relevant anymore, do you mean by 6k that you hope to use it to have 10bit 422 4K, and maybe 12bit 422 HD ? This would produce another type of content we would have to develop before post production, more space for stocking it etc... A good camera would be more strength for less operations, don't you think?

Because otherwise I don't see the need for 6k if nothing moves in the 8bit compression, even in H.265 8bit isn't really satisfying...  
Anyway, I like your asking to Panasonic and your hopes that they'll use their S35 processores quality for an entry range body like gh5 could be, comparing to their great achievements on varicam.
On a commercial point you're right, this camera could show specs that would beat everything. But deeply, it still wouldn't be as groundbreaking as the effort blackmagic made with it's raw hd in BMCC at the time it came out...

In fact, if sony could show a raw capable A7III body type soon after any possible GH5 coming out, Panasonic would again be beaten by playing big specs in first place... 
I don't feel your predictions show a really strong path for Panasonic, but I agree with you that they might indeed take this one for commercial purposes on a short term... sadly...:confused:

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1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Why is it underrated?

The noise?

 

I believe so. Alot of people wrote it off using 8 bit which I understand. It takes alot of practice to figure out how to expose. I just use a LUT preview on an external monitor now and it's pretty simple. The LOG conversion is also a make or break step. The Panasonic VariCam LUT doesn't yield great results and magnifies the magenta blocking issue. Alexa LUT, and Cineon Film LUT are damn near perfect. Skin tones look outstanding.

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If you think that Panasonic will abandon the M43 format for the GH5 then you are crazy. Not gonna happen. I will live stream my seppuku on EOSHD if that happens. What will happen is that Panasonic will eventually introduce their newly developed "organic" sensor tech into the GH camera line. This will give them performance better than the current generation of full-frame cameras but in the small M43 form factor. I'd guess 2017 or later.

As for 6K, why? There is approximately zero demand for 6K and it's technically unfeasable for any number of reasons. A more reasonable step would be for for Panasonic to have the GH5 record 10-bit 4:2:2 4K internally, but even that would be beyond the capability of the SD card format for reasonably low compression. 

 

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Great post as always Andrew, but my concern is what we might LOSE if the GH5 goes with a larger sensor. What Panasonic has done so well with the GH line is exploiting all the benefits of a smaller sensor. For instance, if a m43 sensor means giving us 240fps at 1080p as opposed to 120fps on a s35 sensor, I would go with the m43 sensor every time. Hell, maybe we could even get a global shutter this time around? At any rate, there are certainly many benefits of a smaller sensor that can potentially outshine the step up to s35. I still think Panasonic should continue separating this format by offering kick ass specs that larger sensors can't offer. That might even mean having to do a complete technology overhaul for m43, which it sounds like they are already working on. See below.

http://blog.planet5d.com/2016/02/a-sensor-that-can-shoot-in-starlight-panasonics-apd-cmos-could-change-low-light-forever/

 

 

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Andy Welch said:

If you think that Panasonic will abandon the M43 format for the GH5 then you are crazy. Not gonna happen. I will live stream my seppuku on EOSHD if that happens. What will happen is that Panasonic will eventually introduce their newly developed "organic" sensor tech into the GH camera line. This will give them performance better than the current generation of full-frame cameras but in the small M43 form factor. I'd guess 2017 or later.

The organic sensors are apparently due to appear in 2020, but possibly for automotive/industrial uses first.

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I really doubt Panasonic will go super 35mm, JVC sure did it but GH5 as a micro four thirds stills camera won't be allowed to be separated from other models that significantly, yet i really hope that they will go for multi aspect sensor, that is closer to super35 than m43. Regarding sensor size, to my taste the Blackmagic Pocketcamera with it's small sensor is still capable of delivering one of the most lush images around in the sub 3000 $. Im far from pro, but i really love the size advantage i can get from m43. My camera + three lens system fits easily in my jacket pockets (Lumix GM1, Lumix 14mm F2.5 (+11mm adapter if needed), Mitakon 25mm F0.95 and Lumix 42.5mm 1.7 O.I.S.

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With $1000 full frame bodies, APS-C is on its way out, too, for anything but the consumer market. If manufacturers like Panasonic want to stay competitive with Sony, but also with Canon and Nikon with their sub-$2000 6D and D750 bodies, they have to offer full frame. The stills market, not video, will drive this demand.

The full frame Leica SL has Panasonic technology inside. So I wouldn't be too surprised if a lower-price variant of this camera will be released this year by Panasonic and replace the GH4 as its flagship mirrorless camera.

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Interesting post, Andrew. However, I do not believe Panasonic would change the sensor size in the GH line to S35 for many of the reasons already mentioned. I also don't want them too.

I've been using the GH line of cameras for my business for the last 4 years. They are small, have a lovely detailed image, and most importantly of all they have never let me down.

With the GH4 they finally got to a professional standard body. It is rock solid, has best-in-class battery life, it never overheats, and has no recording limits. Panasonic have played to their strengths beautifully. Apparently they sold way more GH4s than they were anticipating and it would be a strange move to throw that progress away when they now have a fan base. I hope to start make narrative films this year and will have no qualms using the GH4 for the job too where I can use my Nikon lenses with a speedbooster and achieve an S35 look if I desire.

 

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The low light high ISO performance could be improved with better S/N firmware even with M/43. Why do you think the Nikon D810 iso improved so much over the D800 or even the 12mp D700. Now the D810 does not have the exact pixel density as the GH4, but this still applies.

But with all that sound I agree I would rather have a super 35mm or full frame image.

I would really like to see a color space improvement. Nikon has a beautiful color space. Improving color should not only be on Panasonic's to do list, but Sony's as well.

If not then just gives us RAW and go home.

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This is pretty similar to the idea I had a few months back for a possible "Sony A9", it's just that instead of FF 24MP for a true 8K crop in APS-C, with a option for 6K full readout 4K output in FF, it's a APS-C to Micro4/3 crop.

With JVC already using a Super35 sensor on a Micro4/3 mount, I think this can indeed be very interesting for Panasonic, making a clear distinction between the GH and GX line may be the next step since the GX8 has more "PRO" feats compared to the GX7, I wonder if Panasonic would really do that since people don't talk that much about GX8, so I wonder if it's selling well.

The A6300 is a very interesting camera but it's Sony, so they made some compromises so there is still a gap for an A7000 series and so that the A6300 doesn't get too close to the A7 family, so are these little things that we would like it to have, but unfortunately it doens't. Panasonic could really take advantage of that, fill that Super35 video gap with a full featured video camera. With Fuji stepping up in video, it would be good to do it now rather than never.

This would also open a precedent for a step up video camera to compete with the FS5, something that I would really like. Sure it can be up with the FS7, or right between them, but the FS5's modularity, size and weight is the most appealing part of it.

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NO, I wold not like an APS-C sensor on Gh5!

A multi aspect m4/3  24 MP sensor with 6K video recording, 4K downsampeld from 6K, 10 bit and 4:2:2 internal recording, better AF (especially for video), a better audio DAC, Vlog 2, 60p 4K, better DR and Low light capabilities and a better body would do the trick at 1799$ for me. :)

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While FF sensors are great, S35 will remain the professional standard for the foreseeable future. Why? Because the image circle of PL cine lenses can cover S35 but not FF 35mm. That is why professional cameras such as the Arri Alexa, which cost $70K+, still use S35 sensors.

 

 

image.jpeg

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No, no, no!
Dear Panasonic, please don’t listen to Andrew.
He’s a nice guy, but this time…. :-)

I don’t think, businesswise it would be a clever decision.
From my consumer segment point of view, it wouldn’t be an attractive one either.

The main benefit from the MFT is not the FT, but the “M”.
Micro!
If somebody wants “full-frame”, than buy a full-frame camera.
MFT gives the best size/quality compromise. There is no perfect camera, no “one size fits all” system. Size-quality-price is all important but antagonistic factors!

I don’t want to invest into speedbusters and co. and I certainly wouldn’t buy a camera, i.e. pay for features, I could only use with other lenses. That’s the whole idea with having a system. I want a light and efficient gear, exactly as MFT is.

Actually, I would rather ask Panasonic for the opposite. Make the new sensor with fewer pixels. I would love to see a native 4K MFT sensor with app. 8 MP. but with excellent low light capability. Aka a7s… Full pixel readout and no mathematics, how to make 4K from 6K, instead of that, using the processor for more color and dynamic range. God forbid it, even RAW :-)

Of course, 8-10 MP would not be so attractive for some photographers, but that’s why, there are other cameras. You can’t please all. In business strategy, segmentation is like DoF, it’s about taking choices, focusing. I certainly hope, Panasonic would not change their focus :-)

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@k-robert Don't worry, Panasonic will not move away from M43 for it's still camera line (and that is what the GH series is). I wouldn't be surprised to see them release a -$10k S35 camcorder though...

As far as your desire for more DR and better low light capability, there will be incremental improvements but a M43 camera will never match the performance of a FF camera (all other factors being equal). It's simply a matter of physics- the FF sensor just has more surface are to collect photons than a M43 sensor does. I wouldn't expect A7S ii performance from a M43 camera anytime soon. Maybe when the "organic" sensor is released...

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20 minutes ago, Andy Welch said:

@k-robert Don't worry, Panasonic will not move away from M43 for it's still camera line (and that is what the GH series is).

I wouldn't be so sure. On the German Slashcam forum, we have a highly competent member who works in the central buying department of Europe's biggest consumer electronics superstore chain, and says that in Europe, Panasonic and Olympus faced serious drops in the camera sales last year, which even their new models couldn't compensate, because consumers are now as fixated on sensor size as on megapixels. Panasonic for sure will not abandon M43 short-term, but might move to full frame for its high end cameras. In the photography market, it will become increasingly difficult to sell M4/3 cameras for $1000 and more. (To tell you the truth, I wouldn't buy a stills camera with a 4/3 sensor for more than a few hundred $ either.)

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Compressed raw would be great on a GH. But I wouldn't bet on it for a GH5, maybe a GH6 in 2019/2020. By then memory speeds should be even faster.
Eventually these companies should do raw video like they do raw stills, but I think it's a matter of memory speed and NLE support before they want to make that jump. 

I also think Panasonic is more likely to create a full frame line of cameras and lenses than to go with a Super35 sensor in a GH. It's a bigger jump in sensor size and puts them in a whole new market segment. They can price it above the GH line like most full frame cameras.  At which point the GH5 would be the flagship of the smaller sensor line the way the 7D is for Canon. The question would be whether or not they see a market for that with so much competition there already. 
 

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I must admit I still don't get all of this m4/3 crop factor and the GH4 is being left behind stuff.  In my mind crop factor comes down to what lenses you want to use.  If you try to slap on lenses designed for full frame then yes it can be an issue, but if you use lenses designed for the sensor size then the problem largely goes away.  Yes its a different aesthetic than s35 or full frame, but that isn't a bad thing unless you are trying to make it something it isn't.  2 months ago Andrew was saying:

"Now you can say noise in this case is a weakness, a smaller Super 16mm sensor is a weakness. Nope. I don’t think in terms of crop factor with Super 16mm, I think in terms of several decades of beautiful lenses. A crop factor for me is a negative when you crop into a lens not designed for the sensor size you’re using. With Super 16mm lenses there’s no crop, you keep the overall rendering – and on some of these vintage lenses it knocks the socks off many of the newer more clinical high spec full frame lenses*

Doesn't this apply to m4/3 as well??

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