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Andrew Reid

Nikon D5 versus Canon 1D C for cinematic 4K video - which wins?

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

Not to mention that the XQD can support >1000mbps... 

They could have revolutionized BOTH the photography AND the videography fields by implementing 4K compressed raw at 24p. Even with a crop. 

But given the 3min limit, that sensor has severe heat problems and I believe they are trying to protect the long term usage of the camera. 

P.S. My dream D5, other than shooting RAW 4K, had an EVF when the mirror flipped up similar to the hybrid viewfinder of X100T.

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I don't think they don't know we need 10bit or peaking or full read out and things like that. heck I even say they read EOSHD. its cost cutting policies that shape these decisions.

the sad thing is the one (Samsung) that wanted to do it with lower profit margin, couldn't survive.   

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I think this proves just what a one-off the 1DC has been. Canon and Nikon obviously don't want to make a high-quality 4k DSLR, going by their releases since the 1DC and also Canon's refusal to support that camera in any way with firmware updates or even a proper LUT. Surely they could do better if they tried, but they choose not to.

Why? Market segmentation? Internal politics?

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Thank you for fighting for us! not a lot of people are. That being the reason we are stuck with these specs. As a long time Canon owner I am so disappointed in them and their greed. I am jumping ship into the pentax 645z for photo and trying to figure which route for 4k. I like the samsung nx1 and the mini ursa but at the same time some of the red cams on eBay are becoming very affordable.

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I think this proves just what a one-off the 1DC has been. Canon and Nikon obviously don't want to make a high-quality 4k DSLR, going by their releases since the 1DC and also Canon's refusal to support that camera in any way with firmware updates or even a proper LUT. Surely they could do better if they tried, but they choose not to.

Why? Market segmentation? Internal politics?

Why... Good question!

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Now that I've had over a years use of 4k 8 bit 4:2:0, I find very little benefit to overall image quality compared with true 1080p. Images seem to be getting more and more digital, artificial, brittle. Lacking in soul. Even TV's are set by default to take out the magic with those horrible "True Motion" settings. 

Point is, what on earth happened to 1080p? The camera companies can't be finished with it yet. 4k is still very much an infant, screaming at customers for market share. 

Canon and Nikon have the most "pleasing" images, but progress in video features is slow. Oh well. 

If Nikon had released: 

- 2.5k compressed raw video and 10 bit ProRes, full readout.

- 120fps HD on an 8 second buffer (decent bitrate).

- Articulating LCD. 

- Peaking, zebras, log (standard video stuff)

..... it would be very very very very popular. Probably. Likely. I'd get one. 

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I'm really looking forward to what the GH5 will bring. And the LX200. And FS5 firmware updates. Blackmagic just doesn't seem to have the resources to implement things like IBIS, Auto-ND, etc., so unless they pull a miracle out of their hat at this year's NAB (and actually ship this year), Sony is going to have the chance to bring their tech down to something near the same price point - and actually ship products people can buy. This seems to be a make or break year for Blackmagic. I'd kind of like Sony or Panasonic to buy Blackmagic. Imagine that 4.6k sensor with IBIS and Auto-ND in a body like the A7S, or LX100. Or a modular system with the base the size of the Micro Cinema (which still isn't shipping with the measly Full HD sensor!).

Canon (and Nikon) still seem to have their collective heads up their asses, for whatever reasons. A mirrorless 5D4C would take the world by storm, but you know that's never going to happen.  :(

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I don't think they don't know we need 10bit or peaking or full read out and things like that. heck I even say they read EOSHD. its cost cutting policies that shape these decisions.

the sad thing is the one (Samsung) that wanted to do it with lower profit margin, couldn't survive.   

It wasn't the margin that killed Samsung, it was the entrenched brand loyalty that did it. Blame the people who prized the logo on the name plate over performance for that, not the company.

Now that I've had over a years use of 4k 8 bit 4:2:0, I find very little benefit to overall image quality compared with true 1080p. Images seem to be getting more and more digital, artificial, brittle. Lacking in soul. Even TV's are set by default to take out the magic with those horrible "True Motion" settings. 

Point is, what on earth happened to 1080p? The camera companies can't be finished with it yet. 4k is still very much an infant, screaming at customers for market share. 

Canon and Nikon have the most "pleasing" images, but progress in video features is slow. Oh well. 

If Nikon had released: 

- 2.5k compressed raw video and 10 bit ProRes, full readout.

- 120fps HD on an 8 second buffer (decent bitrate).

- Articulating LCD. 

- Peaking, zebras, log (standard video stuff)

..... it would be very very very very popular. Probably. Likely. I'd get one. 

Pleasing to you. Not necessarily pleasing to the masses.

Just because you are a film maker you should not make the mistake of thinking that your tastes are the tastes of the average person. They might watch what you make because that's all you make it, but that doesn't mean that what you make is what they want to watch.

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Canon (and Nikon) still seem to have their collective heads up their asses, for whatever reasons...

Or they believe (or their research tells them) that DSLR-for-video is simply too small a market to invest much in. Since the D90 started all this (which seems to have been a case of an engineer saying, "hey, I think we can get the live-view feed to the card"), posters on every video-centric forum decry the stupidity of the two big DSLR makers. But maybe the truth is that investing in R&D and manufacturing that adds more features gives profitability too big a hit. Nikon, for one, must know by now the big-demand features we want. (And keep in mind some of the most-desired Canon features come from Magic Lantern, an open-source third party - not from Canon) (As far as I know, haven't owned a Canon since the D7000 came out).

I have to assume that Samsung's failure (if that's indeed what's going on) has just reinforced that idea. Any Nikon engineer pleading to add video features has just been told "look what happened to Samsung". I assume there's a lot of product dev folks in Asia heaving a big sigh of relief about playing catch-up with Samsung.

I'd love for someone at CES to see if they could get a clarification from Samsung though. An NX2 could be a lovely thing.

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It wasn't the margin that killed Samsung, it was the entrenched brand loyalty that did it. Blame the people who prized the logo on the name plate over performance for that, not the company.

I don't know what margin Samsung made on their cameras and neither do you! Margin certainly factors into a retailer's decision to stock the product that's for sure.

The brand loyalty issue is correct though in the sense that most customers are used to trusting certain brands for certain things. Canon would have a hard time selling a smart fridge or smartphone.

It's an awareness issue as well. Most people were simply not aware that the NX1 was so good.

But what really killed sales was that it was marketed at the wrong people.

Of all the mirrorless cameras the NX1 was the one aimed most squarely at Canon and Nikon DSLR users.

Had they tried to take mirrorless market share away from Sony, Olympus and Panasonic instead and aimed it squarely at enthusiasts who like lens adapters, peaking and 4K video they would have succeeded admirably.

Just because you are a film maker you should not make the mistake of thinking that your tastes are the tastes of the average person.

Come on. Do you really think the D5 is aimed at the average person?

It's aimed at pros and a small number of cash-rich enthusiasts which demand the absolute best performance.

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Now that I've had over a years use of 4k 8 bit 4:2:0, I find very little benefit to overall image quality compared with true 1080p. Images seem to be getting more and more digital, artificial, brittle. Lacking in soul. Even TV's are set by default to take out the magic with those horrible "True Motion" settings. 

Point is, what on earth happened to 1080p? The camera companies can't be finished with it yet. 4k is still very much an infant, screaming at customers for market share. 

Canon and Nikon have the most "pleasing" images, but progress in video features is slow. Oh well. 

If Nikon had released: 

- 2.5k compressed raw video and 10 bit ProRes, full readout.

- 120fps HD on an 8 second buffer (decent bitrate).

- Articulating LCD. 

- Peaking, zebras, log (standard video stuff)

..... it would be very very very very popular. Probably. Likely. I'd get one. 

This is the reason I'm not digging the new Blackmagic cameras. I think the old 1080, 2.5K images were so much lovelier.

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Like most cameras, I don't think we can make a call on this until FLAT files from the camera go out in the wild. On paper the D750 is pretty poor spec wise, but in practice it has a great image that is easily graded. Compare that to the 10-bit 4:2:2 issues on the FS5 codec, and you really can't compare these cams unless you see tests from professionals.

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When purely talking about specs, the samsung nx500 seems so clooooose to the D5 and for ... around 600€ max...

 

Like most cameras, I don't think we can make a call on this until FLAT files from the camera go out in the wild. On paper the D750 is pretty poor spec wise, but in practice it has a great image that is easily graded. Compare that to the 10-bit 4:2:2 issues on the FS5 codec, and you really can't compare these cams unless you see tests from professionals.

I must admit that on HD 8bit 4:2:0 I loved much more the nikon D800 compression than any other brands, it was less heavy and seemed much more "gradable", this talking from experience that was contradicting all the specs I could find and the DR in nikon last DSLRs has always been amazing.  But, anyway, blocky will always be blocky and we can see it all around on their video presentation... 

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I'd kind of like Sony or Panasonic to buy Blackmagic.

I have to disagree here. I think that would be actualy worse for us because I'm not sure that traditional Japanese managers would think about camera making and pricing in the same way as BM ones. I think that's already proven so far.

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When purely talking about specs, the samsung nx500 seems so clooooose to the D5 and for ... around 600€ max...

More closer to the D500 really.

For 4K video the D5 is closer in spec to the NX1 but without the H.265 codec, DCI 4K and long recording times, or mirrorless mount, or EVF, or... I can go on!

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I don't know what margin Samsung made on their cameras and neither do you! Margin certainly factors into a retailer's decision to stock the product that's for sure.

The brand loyalty issue is correct though in the sense that most customers are used to trusting certain brands for certain things. Canon would have a hard time selling a smart fridge or smartphone.

It's an awareness issue as well. Most people were simply not aware that the NX1 was so good.

But what really killed sales was that it was marketed at the wrong people.

Of all the mirrorless cameras the NX1 was the one aimed most squarely at Canon and Nikon DSLR users.

Had they tried to take mirrorless market share away from Sony, Olympus and Panasonic instead and aimed it squarely at enthusiasts who like lens adapters, peaking and 4K video they would have succeeded admirably.

Come on. Do you really think the D5 is aimed at the average person?

It's aimed at pros and a small number of cash-rich enthusiasts which demand the absolute best performance.

The NX1 has peaking, 4K video and those things. No lens adapters, but there is not much Samsung can do about that because of IP issues and the need to work around the mount they had. I disagree that the NX1 has targeted at Canon and Nikon users, it was clearly intended as a state of the art hybrid, and neither of those two companies have anything in that segment. The GH4 was likely its primary target. The success of the NX1 is that it achieved many of those goals as a hybrid, but that was not enough to make any headway at all against brand entrenchment in the pure stills and pure video markets. Now, I believe that the hybrid is the camera of the future, but the market isn't ready for the future yet. Too many people stuck in the old way of doing things, but that will change in time (eventually, all dinosaurs go extinct ;) ). In that sense the NX1 was ahead of its time I think. Even if it is no longer developed it is still going to be a very competitive camera functionally for a long time to come as a result.

As for the D5, no, I don't think it is aimed at the average person. The comment was more directed at the apparent attitude that things like 4K are unimportant. And that might well be true for people who make content, because those folk are looking at other parameters. But the point is, what is important for those folk is typically unimportant for the average joe. What will appeal to the average person are not nuances about color, "feel", or dynamic range, what will appeal to them is a sense of reality, what they can see. And ultimately that will come down to sheer resolution, particularly as TV sets become larger and larger. Do you think that HD is really going to cut it when the average panel is 60"+? At that size pixels become evident, along with jaggies and all the rest, not to mention blurriness due to a lack of resolution. People want to feel like they are there, not feel like they need to go to the optician the next day. The future with large displays is unquestionably going to be at least 4K.

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What do you mean by "no lens adapters", that isn't right. Full aperture control on A mount and Nikon lenses too! Widely available premium quality Novoflex and even a great PL mount adapter from Ciecio7.

Do you actually mean "no adapters with electronic comms for EF mount lenses"?

If so then say so as otherwise people get confused and this is supposed to be a knowledge-base not just a chat board.

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Some engineer at some Nikon meeting continually convinces them that crippling their video capabilities for the hell of it is the key to selling cameras

What I can't understand is that a whole big feedback chain exists here, it is not just some engineer at Nikon deciding to cripple things!

What I think is really wrong is the quality of the feedback.

Take for example, a wedding shooter, who has a relationship with Nikon. Is he going to put that relationship on the line by being negative about their cameras and saying with some urgency in a rather blunt manner how they MUST be improved? It's more likely they will put this kind of criticism in the small print at the end of their glowing endorsement of the camera. More likely they will soft-punt it through the door after the gushing praise has entered. More likely they will sweetly soften the criticism and say things like "GREAT camera but hey it's not perfect, MAAAAYBE you could improve the video mode, but no rush!"

This is the REAL problem.

Take for example the fact the live-view display in video mode has audio meters on the picture and not outside the frame.

This is a basic problem, so basic it probably takes two X / Y coordinates in C++ code to change, since Nikon already has room top and bottom of the 16:9 image on the 3:2 LCD display for these audio meters!

Yet NOBODY has FORCEFULLY pointed out to Nikon in MEANINGFUL NUMBERS that this is completely SHIT AND WRONG.

And for as long as this situation continues, Nikon will continue to lose sales.

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