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Panasonic GH6 rumours


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4 hours ago, Jimmy G said:

Hi barefoot_dp,

Well, my primary focus is always on photography, having the ability to choose to video my subject matter (think birds, flowers, insects, etc.) in the moment at the same high quality as my RAW stills files is (has been) my desire and goal.

Unfortunately you find yourself in a small niche that not many of the brands are likely to cater to (due to my previous comment of it making the products prohibitively expensive/complex for the majority of users).

I think you're likely left in a position where you need to decide whether you actually need the things you think you do (ie raw, 10-bit) for what you're doing, or whether they're just imaginary goalposts you've put up. What exactly is it that you think you're missing from the current generation of cameras, that would be better if you were shooting raw?
 

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More DR, internal ProRes and external RAW would be preferably to more pixels.

A7SIII is the closet FF camera that has come to pulling me out of MFT land as a primary camera. The 12MP sensor kinda kills it for me. I wish it was closer to 20MP for photography. 15MP might have bee

It is interesting that the top three spots on Andrew's list of the most popular cameras on EOSHD are all M43 cameras.  Yet every day we have new posts bemoaning the impending death of the format.  And

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7 hours ago, barefoot_dp said:

Unfortunately you find yourself in a small niche that not many of the brands are likely to cater to (due to my previous comment of it making the products prohibitively expensive/complex for the majority of users).

I think you're likely left in a position where you need to decide whether you actually need the things you think you do (ie raw, 10-bit) for what you're doing, or whether they're just imaginary goalposts you've put up. What exactly is it that you think you're missing from the current generation of cameras, that would be better if you were shooting raw?
 

Hi barefoot_dp,

Well, the niche may be small for my particular nature video interests, but (from my online reading) there is clearly an interest for in-camera 10-/12-bit and/or RAW recording abilities with the run-and-gun and wedding/event folks, so I'm not feeling so alone in this pursuit. 😄

To your question, my goal is to start shooting for HDR output and the better the quality of the original capture files the more versatility and future-proofing it will provide.

To put this into context, I had a conversation with one of the Panasonic reps (you'd recognize him from their online tutorials) at the PDN PhotoPlus expo in NYC back in late-'19 and inquired about this very subject and my desires for the same full choices for internal recording as were being provided for with external recording (for the very reasons I've here expressed). And their question to me regarding 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0 was, "If your workflow is in Rec.709 SDR why would you want 10-bit 4:2:2 when you're not going to be able to see the difference?" And my answer to him was the same as I'm giving you here, "Well, that's not always going to be true. Sometime in the not-too-distant-future we're all going to be shooting Rec.2020 HDR and I'd like to start capturing my files for that environment today. If, today, I capture an eagle snatching a fish from the water I want that footage to look spectacular today in SDR aaand I also want it to also look even more spectacular in HDR when I'm able to use that very same footage to its full advantage five or ten years from now!".

I'm not arguing against the utility of external recorders for those that need them for their workflows, all I'm requesting is that the same bit-dumps should be made available to my internal XQD/CFExpress cards recording at 1700MB/s as are being piped out over HDMI to AtomX drives recording at 540MB/s.

Doesn't seem like too much to ask, is it? 😉

Jim

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20 hours ago, Jimmy G said:

there is clearly an interest for in-camera 10-/12-bit and/or RAW recording abilities with the run-and-gun and wedding/event folks, so I'm not feeling so alone in this pursuit.

Keep in mind that run-n-gun does not always equate to small and light. In fact, often quite the opposite as more weight = more stability when shooting handheld. So often those run-n-gun shooters don't mind the weight that comes with a proper cinema camera.
 

20 hours ago, Jimmy G said:

If, today, I capture an eagle snatching a fish from the water I want that footage to look spectacular today in SDR aaand I also want it to also look even more spectacular in HDR when I'm able to use that very same footage to its full advantage five or ten years from now!".

Funny, I'm the total opposite. I want my footage to look obsolete in 5 years, that way the client has to hire me to re-shoot the exact same thing.

 

20 hours ago, Jimmy G said:

all I'm requesting is that the same bit-dumps should be made available to my internal XQD/CFExpress cards recording at 1700MB/s as are being piped out over HDMI to AtomX drives recording at 540MB/s.

Doesn't seem like too much to ask, is it? 😉

The big problem there is patents.

You can't just take the Prores Raw (or some other similarly compressed format) and put it inside a camera, because Red's patents don't allow it.
 

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5 hours ago, barefoot_dp said:

Keep in mind that run-n-gun does not always equate to small and light. In fact, often quite the opposite as more weight = more stability when shooting handheld. So often those run-n-gun shooters don't mind the weight that comes with a proper cinema camera.
 

Funny, I'm the total opposite. I want my footage to look obsolete in 5 years, that way the client has to hire me to re-shoot the exact same thing.

 

The big problem there is patents.

You can't just take the Prores Raw (or some other similarly compressed format) and put it inside a camera, because Red's patents don't allow it.
 

Hi barefoot_dp,

Well, we're both clearly assessing the market from different needs (you sound like you might be a paid professional with paying clients; me, I'm just some no-client retired fella who likes to go out and capture the beauty of nature for my own enjoyment) and methinks that's part of the (many) challenges facing camera manufacturers today...pros, indies, artists, hobbyists, YT'ers, FB'ers, etc. all looking for creative tools to suit their needs...

...so, "whither goest" Panasonic with its GH6?

The way I see things playing out for the immediate future, smartphones-to-consumption devices (Read: TVs, smartphones, home computers) are going to dominate the lion's share of HDR creation and consumption tools here on Planet Earth by the winter holiday season 2021. That's a huge market and I feel certain that Panasonic (along with every other camera maker) is trying their best to figure out how to create sensible and profitable products for this market...or face irrelevance or, worse, extinction.

The GH6, this isn't about satisfying the pros, in my humble estimation, that path is a "world of hurt" for Panasonic's non-pro/non-client customer base and has created the current market of infathomable gear choices and unnecessary complexity and added expense...well, IMHO. Take a gander at this nightmare story, it's what I (and countless others) am (are) finding out the hard way as I (we) try to figure out the smoothest path to shoot HDR for myself (ourselves)...

I went through hell to make an HDR YouTube video so you don’t have to | Engadget

https://www.engadget.com/creating-hdr-videos-for-youtube-is-hell-140028098.html

...and the linked video therein (equally applies to my gear)...grab some popcorn and a vomit bag...

I went through hell to upload this HDR video - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kACAFy3yYdc

...and that's a world of difference from one-tap shooting HDR on an iPhone and one-tap posting it online experience that's going to take that lion's share of profits. The doomsday clock for the camera manufacturers is ticking, you can keep your cinema camera, er, "solutions"...the GH6 needs to help change the current nightmare paradigm.

 

Jimbo's GH6 Wishlist (and recipe to avoid irrelevance and extinction! Haw!)...

1. 8K Organic sensor, by my industry research, it'll be "in there". Check.

2. ~4-inch HDR1000 Display and HDR1000 EVF. I don't need or want "no stinkin'" dongles and extraneous apparatus to monitor my HDR shooting. It'll likely be in the iPhone 13, so "time's a tickin'".

3. Internal recording of all bit-rates, all chroma-subsamplings and all codecs. Period.

4. Dual-Slot recording for proxies and full files.

5. Thunderbolt i/o and power connectivity. Screw HDMI and BNC/SDI connections.

6. One-tap wireless proxy transfer to smart devices for quick turnaround/posting/distribution.

Kudos to Panasonic on the next wave of firmware updates for my 2 S1's, keep that train a-goin' and provide us 10-/12-VLOG bits on my internal cards next firmware go-'round, it'll make the wait for the GH6/S2 more tolerable and at least make sure it's "in there" on the GH6 and all future cameras. 😄

My morning coffee 2¢, 🙂

Jim

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On 3/22/2021 at 8:35 AM, Jimmy G said:

all I'm requesting is that the same bit-dumps should be made available to my internal XQD/CFExpress cards recording at 1700MB/s as are being piped out over HDMI to AtomX drives recording at 540MB/s.

Doesn't seem like too much to ask, is it? 😉

They no longer have "slow internal media" as an excuse anymore when we now have CFExpress Type B (not type A; its garbage imho) that is essentially running the same hardware and protocols as a M.2 SSD over PCIExpress (hence the 'express' in CFExpresses name!).

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On 3/24/2021 at 8:30 PM, Video Hummus said:

They no longer have "slow internal media" as an excuse anymore when we now have CFExpress Type B (not type A; its garbage imho) that is essentially running the same hardware and protocols as a M.2 SSD over PCIExpress (hence the 'express' in CFExpresses name!).

Well, after watching yesterday's LUMIX Cameras YT channel live stream [link] covering the upcoming S-Sries FW updates I'm still not seeing the reason for XQD/CFExpress B in the S1.

I had hoped (when buying the camera) that having such a high-speed card slot forebode some sort of upcoming FW update that could/would make use of those data transfer speeds. I actually thought, "Hmm, this thing is built to be a sprinter, let's see what Panasonic has in store for that card slot!" only to find out it's always going to be a trotter. (Too harsh?)

I'm thinking engineering/marketing department overshoot? No CFExpress B on subsequent S1H, S5, I suppose we'll never know.

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2 hours ago, Jimmy G said:

Well, after watching yesterday's LUMIX Cameras YT channel live stream [link] covering the upcoming S-Sries FW updates I'm still not seeing the reason for XQD/CFExpress B in the S1.

I had hoped (when buying the camera) that having such a high-speed card slot forebode some sort of upcoming FW update that could/would make use of those data transfer speeds. I actually thought, "Hmm, this thing is built to be a sprinter, let's see what Panasonic has in store for that card slot!" only to find out it's always going to be a trotter. (Too harsh?)

I'm thinking engineering/marketing department overshoot? No CFExpress B on subsequent S1H, S5, I suppose we'll never know.

Probably more related to economies of scale. All future cameras will probably have CFExpress. Easier to just reuse parts, software, firmware for all models going forward.

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On 3/26/2021 at 8:59 AM, Jimmy G said:

Well, after watching yesterday's LUMIX Cameras YT channel live stream [link] covering the upcoming S-Sries FW updates I'm still not seeing the reason for XQD/CFExpress B in the S1.

Primarily for stills shooters. Unload the buffer faster and also would be able to download from card to computer faster.

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12 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Primarily for stills shooters. Unload the buffer faster and also would be able to download from card to computer faster.

I am primarily a stills shooter and everything writes just fine to my ProGrade SD XCII V90 Read/Write 300/250MB/s cards with zero buffer issues and zero lag and zero lost frames while shooting stills, and the card-to-computer upload times are simply fabulous.

I shoot my video files to the XQD/CFExpress slot and the R/W 1700/1500MB/s is simply overkill and an unnecessary added expense (both for it adding to the camera's upfront cost/price and for the media to feed it) for that need.

Heck, the S1 doesn't even have 400MB/s All-I (and doesn't look to be ever getting it)...which, FWIW, had been my Firmware Update "sprinter" hope for that slot when I purchased the camera (heck, I even thought that maybe they'd be surprising us with 600MB/s All-I. Ha!)...but, alas, it'll still be a "trotter" at 200MB/s LongGOP with the upcoming v.2.0 FW update.

Am I feeling little burned from the experience? You bet.

As an early adopter, having bought my first S1 prior to the (at the time) promised SFU2 Log Update, I was encouraged by what Panasonic had constructed...solid build, weather sealing, fabulous high-ISO performance, great layout, fantastic EVF, tons of functionality aaand high-speed media slots...and the promise of what the camera could/would be when they hopefully?/eventually? unleashed the capabilities of those high-speed slots.

To use a car analogy, when it comes to speed "this thing was built to burn rubber", however, at the end of the day "it's still only a highway driver", all of this, IMHO. :)

jim

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6 hours ago, Jimmy G said:

I am primarily a stills shooter and everything writes just fine to my ProGrade SD XCII V90 Read/Write 300/250MB/s cards with zero buffer issues and zero lag and zero lost frames while shooting stills, and the card-to-computer upload times are simply fabulous.

I shoot my video files to the XQD/CFExpress slot and the R/W 1700/1500MB/s is simply overkill and an unnecessary added expense (both for it adding to the camera's upfront cost/price and for the media to feed it) for that need.

Heck, the S1 doesn't even have 400MB/s All-I (and doesn't look to be ever getting it)...which, FWIW, had been my Firmware Update "sprinter" hope for that slot when I purchased the camera (heck, I even thought that maybe they'd be surprising us with 600MB/s All-I. Ha!)...but, alas, it'll still be a "trotter" at 200MB/s LongGOP with the upcoming v.2.0 FW update.

Am I feeling little burned from the experience? You bet.

As an early adopter, having bought my first S1 prior to the (at the time) promised SFU2 Log Update, I was encouraged by what Panasonic had constructed...solid build, weather sealing, fabulous high-ISO performance, great layout, fantastic EVF, tons of functionality aaand high-speed media slots...and the promise of what the camera could/would be when they hopefully?/eventually? unleashed the capabilities of those high-speed slots.

To use a car analogy, when it comes to speed "this thing was built to burn rubber", however, at the end of the day "it's still only a highway driver", all of this, IMHO. 🙂

jim

Sure, I can understand your feelings. It would be great if they can find a way to make use of the XQD slot.

One thing is they may not have appreciated at the time of designing the camera was the heat generated by the XQD/CFExpress slot and media. Matt Frazer alluded to that in the recent Lumix Live video about the S1 / S5 / S1H updates.

It seems like they at panasonic / lumix are really afraid of having overheating issues.

Or maybe they are just really afraid of eating in to S1H sales???

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Just to update this last conversation with @Jimmy G regarding CFExpress / XQD card:

In a recent interview on a well-known photography forum, Yosuke Yamane, director of Panasonic's Imaging Division, he mentioned that the heat buildup of the CFexpress can cause thermal issues when shooting video. He also mentioned that Panasonic expects there will be improvements in writing to CFexpress that will reduce heat buildup (and then allow for additional internal recoding options).

So maybe the GH6 will get a CFexpress / XQD slot???

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On 3/31/2021 at 4:35 PM, Mark Romero 2 said:

Just to update this last conversation with @Jimmy G regarding CFExpress / XQD card:

In a recent interview on a well-known photography forum, Yosuke Yamane, director of Panasonic's Imaging Division, he mentioned that the heat buildup of the CFexpress can cause thermal issues when shooting video. He also mentioned that Panasonic expects there will be improvements in writing to CFexpress that will reduce heat buildup (and then allow for additional internal recoding options).

So maybe the GH6 will get a CFexpress / XQD slot???

Hi Mark,

I read that interview and watched the LUMIX firmware update video, too, however my "take away" is a bit different. From my following of events surrounding the S1 (I own 2) these, er, "talking points" about thermal limitations are a very recent phenomenon and seem to coincide with explaining away user requests (like my own) for full internal recording capabilities. I have to believe that the Panasonic engineers had to know full-well before release about the internal effects from heat from their card choices for this model...

Initially, the larger card slot was for XQD which, fwiw, suffers worse thermal generation issues than current model CFExpress B Cards. The result? There was a gain in thermal tolerance/performance when they allowed/implemented for CFE. Next gen CFExpress B promises even better thermal performance.

But the question has always been, "what was the original (hotter) XQD speed to be used for?" There is no internal recording function that I can see that capitalizes on that speed ability, even after the V.2.0 firmware that's arriving next week. I do not believe that such a specific component as the (original and hotter) XQD slot was manufactured and delivered without a future intent. At present, it only ads cost to manufacture and user costs to purchase and feed. Something just does not add up (well, in my mind). And what is even more curious to me is why the more-video-capable and better-thermally-designed S1H arrived with zero CFExpress slots (and I'll spare everyone a regurgitation of my theories on that one! Ha!)?

I'd love to see ProRes RAW data packet to CFExpress recording, even if it requires time limits due to thermal limits. Maybe Panasonic has been working an a "Panasonic RAW"? If so, let us record to card! Meanwhile, thermals be damned, the competition is not sleeping in this regard. 🙂

-Jim

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Red still has the patent for compressed raw recording, atomos got a deal with them and was able to have the prores raw, canon got a deal with them and is able to have canon raw lite. Blackmagic created Braw to avoid a Red lawsuit and is in the clear. Everyone else can’t have internal compressed raw on any camera.

Now s1h can send out the hdmi signal for compressed raw to two different formats, so no, I don’t think internal raw is coming to any Panasonic camera any time soon.

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2 minutes ago, elgabogomez said:

Red still has the patent for compressed raw recording, atomos got a deal with them and was able to have the prores raw, canon got a deal with them and is able to have canon raw lite. Blackmagic created Braw to avoid a Red lawsuit and is in the clear. Everyone else can’t have internal compressed raw on any camera.

Now s1h can send out the hdmi signal for compressed raw to two different formats, so no, I don’t think internal raw is coming to any Panasonic camera any time soon.

I think the addition of Canon RAW lite to the R5 at around 8:1 compression is a big deal. It's in a Canon hybrid camera ffs. If only they would release a R5 mk2 or r5c or whatever with good dynamic range and no overheating to take advantage of it and give RED a run for their money.

I think for sure GH6, if released, will be the last MFT camera from Panasonic. The only thing it has going for it would he high frame rate, high resolution video.

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15 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

I think the addition of Canon RAW lite to the R5 at around 8:1 compression is a big deal. It's in a Canon hybrid camera ffs. If only they would release a R5 mk2 or r5c or whatever with good dynamic range and no overheating to take advantage of it and give RED a run for their money.

I think for sure GH6, if released, will be the last MFT camera from Panasonic. The only thing it has going for it would he high frame rate, high resolution video.

I hope Panasonics next release has internal RAW. Panasonic has always been one to push boundaries. 

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2 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

I hope Panasonics next release has internal RAW. Panasonic has always been one to push boundaries. 

Me too. Even if it is 5:1 or 3:1 with large file sizes. At least it will be there. Cost of media is always going down so it becomes less and less expensive to shoot.

I can also see having high frame rate RAW in a GH6 beneficial for wildlife and sports. 8K60p RAW would be nice for birding/wildlife. 4K240p would be a step up and make it a large sensor high frame rate speciality camera, perhaps even 960p in 1080. I've seen great stuff done with Sony RX camera at 960fps for low budget slowmo.

The 8:1 compression for RAW on R5 makes the RAW very useable imho. It's just a shame, even with clog2, that the final image is just gimped in the DR department compared to other FF cameras and the C70. I've been playing around with the clog3 mode and the more I use it the more I think it was a solid upgrade for the R5, especially for the 4KHQ mode—especially in cinema gamut.

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