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Andrew Reid

Sony 31MP APS-C sensor with GLOBAL SHUTTER might be coming to A6700

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Bear in mind that:

1. Sony never use off-the-shelf sensors for their cameras, or in other worlds, their sensors in camera products are not for general sale.

2. This particular sensor is for industrial use

3. Sony's new APS-C flagship is not called A6700

4. You'll see a 26MP BSI sensor, sounds familiar right? 😉

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Would an A6500 successor still make sense in this day and age?

There hasn't been active development of dedicated compact APS-C lenses for years now, if you want new native lenses, you'll probably be adapting the fullframe Sony E-mounts. There's only been 1 model each generation, each significantly increasing in price. The A6300/A6500 has a lot of issues as a camera body due to the fact they're focusing on keeping the body tiny. Tiny battery/pretty bad battery life. Only one cardslot and it's co-located at the battery compartment. There's no headphone port. The screen doesn't face forwards. There's touchscreen sensitivity, but it's implementation is really limited. The screen dims because the camera suffers from overheating and that should keep it down somewhat. You can raise the threshold of overheat protection kicking in by enabling a tripod mode... 'tripod' because it renders the camera so uncomfortably hot you can't handhold it. Ergonomics are pretty poor. There's nauseating rolling shutter. Menus are awful. Colors are iffy. It's just not a very attractive camera. If they bring out say a $1699 A6700... wouldn't people rather spend the $1999 for an A7III? Just makes more sense.

I can only imagine continuing their APS-C line-up making sense bringing a successor not to the A6500 but the A5100. A sub-$1000 entry level with a couple of new compact lenses dedicated to APS-C. Which they surely will not do.

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44 minutes ago, Luke Mason said:

Bear in mind that:

1. Sony never use off-the-shelf sensors for their cameras, or in other worlds, their sensors in camera products are not for general sale.

Not true. For example the RX100 1" sensor was used in various Sony cameras as well as by customers. The Canon 1" compact series, Panasonic FZ1000 to name but a few.

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2. This particular sensor is for industrial use

Industrial sensors are often found in photography and video cameras. To witness, Blackmagic.

Quote

3. Sony's new APS-C flagship is not called A6700

Name isn't confirmed and anyway, so what. A badge is unrelated to sensor.

Quote

4. You'll see a 26MP BSI sensor, sounds familiar right? 😉

31MP sounds more appealing for stills to me.

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Well that is certainly exciting! Global shutter seems to be a tough one. Blackmagic promised it and ten backed off, and I seem to remember other manufacturers doing the same thing. Let's hope Sony can do it without compromising other qualities, and that it becomes a standard feature in the future.

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3 hours ago, Cinegain said:

Would an A6500 successor still make sense in this day and age?

There hasn't been active development of dedicated compact APS-C lenses for years now, if you want new native lenses, you'll probably be adapting the fullframe Sony E-mounts. There's only been 1 model each generation, each significantly increasing in price. The A6300/A6500 has a lot of issues as a camera body due to the fact they're focusing on keeping the body tiny. Tiny battery/pretty bad battery life. Only one cardslot and it's co-located at the battery compartment. There's no headphone port. The screen doesn't face forwards. There's touchscreen sensitivity, but it's implementation is really limited. The screen dims because the camera suffers from overheating and that should keep it down somewhat. You can raise the threshold of overheat protection kicking in by enabling a tripod mode... 'tripod' because it renders the camera so uncomfortably hot you can't handhold it. Ergonomics are pretty poor. There's nauseating rolling shutter. Menus are awful. Colors are iffy. It's just not a very attractive camera. If they bring out say a $1699 A6700... wouldn't people rather spend the $1999 for an A7III? Just makes more sense.

I can only imagine continuing their APS-C line-up making sense bringing a successor not to the A6500 but the A5100. A sub-$1000 entry level with a couple of new compact lenses dedicated to APS-C. Which they surely will not do.

Full-Frame mirrorless cameras, and especially the lenses that go with them, are still well out of the price range of the average consumer. Plus, Fuji still seem very much dedicated to the APS-C format, so I doubt mirrorless APS-C cameras in general will be going anywhere anytime soon. I suspect we'll see a few more models from Sony (and probably also Canon), but the real question is how they push the market on from where it currently is.

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Am I correct in that once we get global shutters into mirrorless cameras, they'll be no need for the mechanical shutter? Do flashes and strobes sync properly with global electronic shutters? Perfect spot to place an electronic variable ND! With electronic shutters currently offering a broader range of shutter speeds than mechanical shutter (at the expense of a rolling readout) I could see this being the next big thing. Maybe even that full frame Panasonic does away with the mechanical shutter if they are able to implement a global shutter. Would probably help reduce flange distance.

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This is a 4:3 ratio image sensor, so it's hard to believe it will be in any forthcoming Sony camera, except if they decide to release something groundbreaking. 

It's interesting to note that they also have a m43 sized sensor, with the same specs. 

Either way, global shutter sensors using this tech are certainly coming to a camera near you, soon enough. 

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Global shutter readouts are great, but generally speaking, the price you pay for it is more limited dynamic range. Nothing is free and rolling shutter typically beats global shutter in DR. Honestly, I'm perfectly happy with a high clocked rolling shutter scan speed The GH5 is fine and I have never gotten pissed about rolling shutter artifacts.

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Just now, Cliff Totten said:

Global shutter readouts are great, but generally speaking, the price you pay for it is more limited dynamic range. Nothing is free and rolling shutter typically beats global shutter in DR.

As we invent better sensors, at some point we have enough dynamic range and should focus on global shutter. I'm glad to see innovation on both fronts.

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21 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

Global shutter readouts are great, but generally speaking, the price you pay for it is more limited dynamic range. Nothing is free and rolling shutter typically beats global shutter in DR. Honestly, I'm perfectly happy with a high clocked rolling shutter scan speed The GH5 is fine and I have never gotten pissed about rolling shutter artifacts.

I don't see how (or why) that applies.

Maybe it just SEEMS that way since global shutters have not been in the cameras with the greatest DR yet.

Is there some science that supports that (I don't know either way, just how it seems)?

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22 minutes ago, noone said:

I don't see how (or why) that applies.

Maybe it just SEEMS that way since global shutters have not been in the cameras with the greatest DR yet.

Is there some science that supports that (I don't know either way, just how it seems)?

This is a known fact for those that have looked into it. You generally lose about 1.5 stops of DR by implementing GS. As KnightsFan notes, at some point, the amount of DR even with a GS will be good enough to overcome the penalty. If they can come up with 13 stops of DR even with GS, that's going to be plenty for almost all videographers, all other things being equal. Not enough for Hollywood, but they're not operating at this price point, anyway, so the point is moot for them.

I'm more interested in Panasonic's sensor announcement from earlier this year of an 8K GS sensor with on-sensor ND. That is some spicy tech!

10 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Unless it is going to shoot 6K, which isn’t really any kind of video standard. The video standard after 4K is 8K.

That's a straw-man argument. 6K downsampled to 4K output results in a very detailed image, and is something Sony already does with their a6500 and a6300 cameras.

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1 hour ago, tyger11 said:

This is a known fact for those that have looked into it. You generally lose about 1.5 stops of DR by implementing GS.

With GS, you have to put a relatively big capacitor for every pixel, so its always noisier than non-GS sensor. But note that it can be on-off feature, so you will be able to switch back to RS.

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6k may not be any kind of standard, but it is great to film in for 4k output.  When I took the REDucation program in LA a few years back they emphasized over and over that best practice is to film in twice the resolution as your final film/video will be output.  That down scaling makes the image look better, allows for re-framing, plus the occasional ken burns action if you really need it... with no image quality loss.  As of now I always film in 4k with my A7S2, or Panasonic FZ2500, but all my final files are 1080.  As 4k monitors become more standard for TVs and computers, 6k capture will become a helpful tool in the hands of creatives.  Especially since it will likely stay  a lot cheaper than 8k for a long time.

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It barely does 25 fps so I don't think that will work all that well.

The m43 version max out at 28 fps so not that impressive from ether of them.

I see no indication that those bits are in any other form than linear so you need the bits when you shove them around for whatever profile you want to burn into the encode. And 12bit might be pushing it as it is.

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Wouldn't be very good in low light so I doubt this will happen. I am betting they'll use a similar sensor to the Fuji XT3. Probably with more features and such, maybe bigger batteries. Something to give it an edge over Fuji. Though the color will be Sony color so I am not waiting or buying it. 

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