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jonpais

Motion Cadence

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25 minutes ago, jahwah said:

I forgot to add "psychology of the viewer" to the list too. When these sorts of tests are done blind the results are often startling to the viewer. All of the camera fan/hater stuff goes out the window and people's minds open and change. Geoff Boyle has done some great tests this way on CML and very accomplished DPs often are surprised by what they like/dislike when they don't know what the tools are that were used to produce the image and have to judge the image alone without any of the tool allegiances/preferences we all carry around.

Tony Northrup recently did a poll where respondents frequently got it wrong when comparing the noise in two shots, even when the two images used were identical. I guess some people were intentionally guessing wrong just in order to mess up the results. :) So I'm pretty skeptical of these kinds of online polls myself. 

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1 hour ago, jonpais said:

Tony Northrup recently did a poll where respondents frequently got it wrong when comparing the noise in two shots, even when the two images used were identical. I guess some people were intentionally guessing wrong just in order to mess up the results. :) So I'm pretty skeptical of these kinds of online polls myself. 

You're right to be.

We did a bit of study at uni around how to analyse things and how to not accidentally taint your results or get misleading results.  The impression that I took away was that it's a minefield and it's ridiculously difficult to get it right.

Of course, much data gathering is either completely biased through vested interests or incompetence.  

I once started completing an online survey, question one was pretty straight forward "Have you had fast food in the last 3 days" I answered "yes" because I'd had fish and chips, but then it all came to a crashing halt with question two "Which did you have: KFC, McDonalds, Chicken Treat, Hungry Jacks" and there was no "Other" option.  Never mind the local fish-and-chip place - not even all the big fast food chains were in there!

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32 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

😂 Looks like JJ's closed. There's a new fish and chips place there now, maybe I'll check it out tonite.

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Lol, looks like the cure for OT posts might be feeding us!

In getting back to Motion Cadence, I'm curious about this as well, as this is one of the things people say is 'cinematic' (which I believe) but people also seem to imply that even if you set cameras to the 180 shutter that there will still be some difference to the footage (which I don't believe, but would love to be proven wrong).

@jonpais I have watched quite a few of those 'phone vs cinema camera' videos and I found that there was either a huge difference in motion cadence between the two of them (they always shoot them in bright light to use base ISO and so one would be 1/50 and the other 1/2000) or they have used an ND filter of some kind and then there was no difference in motion cadence.

In terms of how someone might have a 180 degree shutter without an ND filter in the real world I can't think of any way this is possible.  I'd be happy to hear about an alternative to ND filters, but I'd say it's safe to assume that if they're using a 180 shutter then it's got an ND.

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Haha. Can we please just forget the phone comparison? It was just to get the ball rolling. I want to see side-by-side comparisons between the top mirrorless brands that some in these forums are saying have such abominable motion cadence that they either aren’t buying the camera or are returning it. 

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Hi guys !

I’m far away from home right now so I have no footage at my disposal to back up what I’m gonna say, but it’s funny you brought up that discussion about motion cadence as I very recently watched old videos I shot with the RX10 mk II (sold since) and told my self how cinematic motion looked with this camera !

I actually realized it just now and it makes me want to buy one again. It became clear with a piece I shot with both the RX10 and the A7S II. Nothing was wrong with the A7S but the shots with the RX10 looked more « cinematic », more pleasing. To be honest, I don’t know if it vas to do with the RX10 image being softer or if there’s truly some kind of magic involved.

I sold the camera because of its lack of sharpness, and now I want to buy it again for the exact same reason 🤪

Contemplating the footage from the camera is like having the best of canon and sony. The cinematic distance (again, is it all just do to soft image?) of the old 5D but sharper and free of artefacts with sony’s dynamic range with slog2.

I also have the RX100 mkV and it doesn’t have the same feel.

Another reason might be the form factor. With its super zoom, handheld, with good color grading, the footage reminds me of a super 8mm camera. The other video that struck me about the motion cadence and cinematic feel was a video taken at the back of à train. Maybe it has to do with the movement of the train itself, but the motion is so great ! 🤩

Anyway, wheither it’s the softness of the image, or the motion going on my shots, or the composition, Motion cadence of the RX10 II has something special. I hope I can upload stuff some time so you can judge by yourself. I was surprised as much as you might be reading those lines !

And maybe it’s a bit of a stretch here but sometimes, RX10 II footage reminded me of my bmpcc ones. The pocket having also a great motion reproduction to my eyes. And weirdly enough, cinematic motion would be more like having less frames than the contrary. Well I guess it’s not that weird...

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@Papiskokuji I agree about the RX10ii. I’ve had it twice and the camera has something really cool about it. It’s 1080p is soft and sometimes even ugly but there is something thick and filmic about the image. The slow motion helps give it a cinematic look because motion cadence with slow motion always looks spot on. But the 24p also has a cool feel to it. 

I also agree that it can have a BMPCC feel to it. Great little camera... even the audio is pretty awesome in a pinch. 

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8 hours ago, kye said:

It's a lot better than KFC!!

Anyway.... :)

We have a chain of gas stations opening up in our area that is known for its fried chicken... yup a gas station. I haven’t tried it yet but everybody says it’s better than KFC and Popeyes. Chicken Treat sounds delicious. Now I’m hungry. 

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I think where we may end up with this is concluding that the only way to truly differentiate the motion cadence between two cameras is by shooting unicorns in full gallop.

12 minutes ago, mercer said:

We have a chain of gas stations opening up in our area that is known for its fried chicken... yup a gas station. 

So it doesn't matter whether you go there for fuel or chicken you're going to end up with gas either way.

Smart marketing.

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5 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

So it doesn't matter whether you go there for fuel or chicken you're going to end up with gas either way.

Do you have Popeye’s Chicken in the UK? It’s pretty good, but there is something strange happening in its chemical makeup... it literally smells exactly the same going in as it does coming out. And let me tell you, the motion cadence as you run to the toilet is not very cinematic. 

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Well, I know it isn't part of a side-by-side comparison, but I really do like the 'look" of the dancer video shot on the bolex that was posted.

As for low light rolling shutter vs global shutter performance, I think the thing was (and don't quote me on this) global shutters tended to be CCD sensors and rolling shutter sensors seem to be CMOS, and tends to perform better in low light. (Obviously, no one is going to confuse me with an engineer with that statement.)

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Around seven years ago, there was an interesting discussion about the motion cadence of the GH2 over at Personal View, where cadence is simply described as the interval between frames and as unrelated to the type of shutter, as best as I can understand it anyway. Stuttering would be the result of an uneven interval between frames. Or something like that, it's too technical for me.

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Yeah that is way too technical for my interests and brain. I’ve always thought of motion cadence to be directly related to how things look when they move within the frame... be it a person’s stride or a car driving across the frame.

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I've been meaning to shoot some 30p and put it on a 24p timeline to see how that works. Actually, some people believe if you're shooting 4K, you should be at 60p for the most natural motion. I wanted to try that out as well, since my subjects never move much anyhow. And when I whip the slider around like I do, it's too blurry at 24p. If I move the camera any slower, the caffeine shakes get even worse. :) Problem is, I ordered an HDMI cable for the Ninja almost three months ago, and it still hasn't arrived, so no 4K 60p for now. With any luck, next week. 

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Yeah I’ve heard that too. I love shallow depth of field and use a lot of it in B-Roll in between scenes to show time passing or to introduce a new location and I realized how great 60p smooths out my handheld rack focuses... I too drink a lot of coffee.

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