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Andrew Reid

RED and Foxconn to create range of affordable 8K prosumer cinema cameras

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130" wide screen here on JVC x30 (1080p). upgrading probably next year to a 4k laser sony. but ... eventually i do see an 8k beamer on the horizon.

4K makes sense for sure. and i think 8K might as well. pondering of moving the color correction setup to the screening room  :)

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

Talk is cheap.

Red is not. And has never been.

Remember 3k for $3K?

 

This is not about inexpensive, high quality prosumer cameras for everyone.

Nor is it about Foxconn getting into the camera game.

What this is really about is RED getting into the expensive (read 8K video) telephone business.

All the rest is hype and BS.

 

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On 2/12/2018 at 11:27 AM, ntblowz said:

8K for 8K anyone? :glasses:

 

Wondering will this prompt Samsung to return to camera market?  because smartphone market is not as it used to be.. getting pretty saturated and the Chinese on their way to domination.  While camera market on the whole is going upmarket with each new camera getting more and more expensive.

Most likely. Samsung and Apple have a genuine hard on for each other. I believe Samsung can get there but teaming up with a brand like RED gets Apple ahead of the cart right out of the gates for sure. Apple needs to very much start investing in new technologies and services. 

I can actually see the Apple/RED partnership. Both companies are quite comfortable with their insane markup business strategies. :)

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42 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Did anyone actually ready Terry Gou's comments word for word at Nikkei?

Are you saying he's making shit up?!

Well if he's getting into the making shit up business then he's picked the right company to do a joint venture with ;)

I think his goal of partnering up with RED and making a very, very affordable imaging system is easily within reach for him.

What he'll still have to deal with though is it ending up being stupidly expensive again when RED insist on putting it inside a case forged from some rock that Elon Musk brings back from Mars complete with titanium fins and platinum exhaust pipes. They'll no doubt do two versions with different resolutions called SHOCK and AWE.

You have to think that if its going to be truly affordable in the sense that we want it to be then its a collaboration that might not ultimately end up being in a RED branded product.

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2 hours ago, yoclay said:

Talk is cheap.

Red is not. And has never been.

Remember 3k for $3K?

 

This is not about inexpensive, high quality prosumer cameras for everyone.

Nor is it about Foxconn getting into the camera game.

What this is really about is RED getting into the expensive (read 8K video) telephone business.

All the rest is hype and BS.

 

OK, now the BS/hype is 8K for 8K LOL :D Nice to read you over here BTW (Salut! : ) I guess you may have spot it. Players need expensive tech to keeping their fees on high as already recently written (E :-)

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Did anyone actually ready Terry Gou's comments word for word at Nikkei?

You all keep second guessing him.

Are you saying he's making shit up?!

I think he's doing his business to end in a camera module for their marketing sake.

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At least Red will put it inside an exotic rock. Apple charges 2-5 times more than other manufacturers (e.g the S8 is half the price here) using exactly the same terrestrial materials, with worst SAR numbers (X Vs S8 / 0.87 Vs 0.315 Head), heavier and bigger designs than most (X Vs S8 / Dimensions 70.9×143.6×7.7 mm Vs 68.1×148.9x8 mm/ Weight 174g Vs 155g).

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Two points:

1) any additional competition in the market is good for us.

2) 8K capture doesn't mean 8K playback.  For a given bitrate you're better off with the higher resolution file, and even if it's larger HDDs are getting cheaper all the time.

I'm waiting for a decent high bitrate 4K 360degree camera so that I can record everything without having to choose where I'm pointing the camera in the field - you can choose that in post, including as many camera angles, face tracking, stabilisation, or whatever other post-processing you like.  I see vloggers shooting 360 and cropping in in post occasionally, but the problem is that they're cropping in to a poor quality file, but that will change.

Film and lower quality digital has groomed the entire industry into thinking that you must use all of the frame that you shoot, consumers don't think like this, and this is the market that we're talking about here.

If you think I'm crazy or that it won't happen, go refresh your knowledge of Moore's Law :)

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The cameras will still cost $10,000:

"We will make cameras that will shoot professional-quality films in 8K resolution but at only a third of current prices and a third of current camera sizes,” Foxconn chairman Terry Gou said yesterday at a holiday party, according to Nikkei."

https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/circuitbreaker/2018/2/13/17007986/red-foxconn-potential-8k-camera-partnership

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I was wondering why Red or Arri haven t done a prosumer device for a while,

Most of their qualities come from software development (color science,compression ect) and sensors can be mass produced at a affordable cost.

That can easily be implemented in a prosumer device.

They have very good brand images and are niche products, manufactured at high cost in western countries but in relatively small workshops compared to Chinese manufacturers.

If tomorrow Red or Arri make a pro dslr with good specs ( let say no raw but a prores 4.2.2 or LT compression) for 3 or 4000 usd, I believe they will take a massive part of the market overnight.

High end production will still buy 50k+ equipement because they have specific needs for them, but I don t think that killing something like the Red raven line in exchange for a much larger consumer base is an issue.

Lets not forget that Davinci resolve use to cost a fortune and is now free, at this business scale, It s more about business strategy than manufacturing/development cost

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I do wonder what sector this is aimed at.

10,000 is way more than a GH5, which is more than enough for your average Joe and great on professional shoots as is. We are about to buy one as a C-Cam, since nothing I've seen touches it in the price range, though the new Fuji announcement looks interesting.

If you're renting, an Alexa Mini or current Red can be pretty stripped down and inexpensive in budget terms. If you don't have the money to rent for shoots, well the 10,000 camera is probably too expensive for you to buy! so it goes round in circles. Maybe crash cam? Abit much for that too...

TBH I think Red had to seriously rethink, since at the top end they're being wiped out by Arri. In fact even in the mid range now, we've hired Arri Amira for web videos.

After the Alexa mini came out a lot of people just stopped flying Reds on steadicam/gimabl settups overnight. Now Arri have a "genuine" 4K acquisition camera in the Alexa LF, that protectionist excuse used by Netflix and so on to stop people from using Arri, that is "it has to be native 4K regardless of how it looks, the number is king" is dead in the water.

Don't get me wrong, r3D is still the best raw codec ever, and I think this will be undeniably cool if it ever happens... I just sort of question... what it's for... and thus where i'd find a use for it.

I think if it doesn't have full IBIS and so on like GH5, I can't conjure up a use case off the top of my head.

I think RED should start licensing R3D now TBH, instead of holding onto it forever while other people overtake in other areas.

Don't become SEGA.

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1 hour ago, Laurier said:

I was wondering why Red or Arri haven t done a prosumer device for a while,

Most of their qualities come from software development (color science,compression ect) and sensors can be mass produced at a affordable cost.

That can easily be implemented in a prosumer device.

They have very good brand images and are niche products, manufactured at high cost in western countries but in relatively small workshops compared to Chinese manufacturers.

If tomorrow Red or Arri make a pro dslr with good specs ( let say no raw but a prores 4.2.2 or LT compression) for 3 or 4000 usd, I believe they will take a massive part of the market overnight.

High end production will still buy 50k+ equipement because they have specific needs for them, but I don t think that killing something like the Red raven line in exchange for a much larger consumer base is an issue.

Lets not forget that Davinci resolve use to cost a fortune and is now free, at this business scale, It s more about business strategy than manufacturing/development cost

I think the main thing holding this back from an Arri is the same thing that stops McLaren making a competitor to the Mazda MX5, for example: the company live at the edge of top-end technology, that is what they're know for and what (in Arri's case) they dominate. They thrive in the pro sector, hold some great patents (like the dual-gain channel sensor architecture in Alexa family cameras) that set them ahead, and they would only open themselves up to un-necessary risk by producing a high-volume consumer/prosumer piece.

as volume goes up, quality control becomes increasingly difficult, your equipment reaches the hands of those prone to user error, sometimes even total beginners. you have tighter profit margins, have to deal with distribution and sales channels on a far larger scale, along with all the attendant legal and logistic expenses and staffing costs. the personal touch you have when dealing with higher-end clients simply disappears.


It's very expensive and time-consuming to bring a product like that to market. Think of just how many mis-steps Blackmagic Design had with their cameras along the way... if you don't know about that, i wouldn't waste time reading up, but a lot of models had problems at launch. I mean I love em, and they did an amazing job coming from nowhere in that market, but they learned in public and as a result a lot of pros won't touch their prosumer line. And they already has a vast distribution and manufacturing network and so on.

TBH I don't think Arri need to. I feel RED may be another question... talking to hire companies, Arri and Canon dominate, with a smattering of GH5 and Sony for budget high speed. Technology companies have to react to the market quickly, or else it's curtains.

Disclosure: I used to have a Red and sold it for a C200. Convenience won! If we don't use that, we hire Arri.

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3 minutes ago, jgharding said:

I think the main thing holding this back from an Arri is the same thing that stops McLaren making a competitor to the Mazda MX5, for example: the company live at the edge of top-end technology, that is what they're know for and what (in Arri's case) they dominate. They thrive in the pro sector, hold some great patents (like the dual-gain channel sensor architecture in Alexa family cameras) that set them ahead, and they would only open themselves up to un-necessary risk by producing a high-volume consumer/prosumer piece.

as volume goes up, quality control becomes increasingly difficult, your equipment reaches the hands of those prone to user error, sometimes even total beginners. you have tighter profit margins, have to deal with distribution and sales channels on a far larger scale, along with all the attendant legal and logistic expenses and staffing costs. the personal touch you have when dealing with higher-end clients simply disappears.


It's very expensive and time-consuming to bring a product like that to market. Think of just how many mis-steps Blackmagic Design had with their cameras along the way... if you don't know about that, i wouldn't waste time reading up, but a lot of models had problems at launch. I mean I love em, and they did an amazing job coming from nowhere in that market, but they learned in public and as a result a lot of pros won't touch their prosumer line. And they already has a vast distribution and manufacturing network and so on.

TBH I don't think Arri need to. I feel RED may be another question... talking to hire companies, Arri and Canon dominate, with a smattering of GH5 and Sony for budget high speed.

Yes, but here we are talking about Foxconn, they have massive facilities and massive R&D capacities, they are more like sony or panasonic than red, arri or blackmagic .

And technologies wise I don t think Arri is leading in any ways, sony are by far the leader, but Arri have better branding/heritage and a more artist friendly approach. 

Look at Red waiting list for products, they simply can t produce very large volumes of products, And foxconn is manufacturing Iphone in large volume so they are able to manufacture complex products and have high quality control. 

Red have such a good branding that is something even beginner dream about, now they are apparently aiming to satisfy a larger audience, do beginners need a red camera, probably not, will they buy one if they can ? I guess they will over Sony and Panasonic.

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1 hour ago, jgharding said:

Don't become SEGA.

Though, ironically, MEGADRIVE sounds exactly like something RED would call a £100 per gig SSD product ;)

And DREAMCAST is a fairly accurate description of some of their expected release date announcements.

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3 hours ago, Laurier said:

They have very good brand images


Imagine how much a premium brand's image would be harmed if a bunch of low budget idiots would start using them?

I can just imagine the complaints already:

"It has shit battery life! I had to buy these expensive V mount batteries, which didn't come with it in the box. Dodgy RED trying to upsell you on hidden costs!"
"It sucks at low light when I'm shooting outdoors at night in the forest with my Canon 18-55mm kit lens!"
"It broke my PC when I loaded these 8K files into my editor and it crashed!"
"This dumb camera doesn't have a portrait selfie mode!"
"The autofocus is hopeless, I wish had never ever brought this camera! I'm sending it back and buying a Canon Rebel"

And so on and so on and so on the reviewers, commentators, social media, and forum posts would go on and on.

Then of course would come the avalanche of dreadful awful looking footage shot with this new "premium" but affordable camera. Because their talent/knowledge/budget/experience isn't even 1% of what the camera is capable of. 

If this is allowed to carry on unchecked for too long, it would end up harming sales of their high end budget cameras as well!

So while I wish Arri would make a $3K camera, I also totally understand the reasons why they wouldn't want to do that. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, jgharding said:

After the Alexa mini came out a lot of people just stopped flying Reds on steadicam/gimabl settups overnight.

Ditto drones.

 

1 hour ago, jgharding said:

I think the main thing holding this back from an Arri is the same thing that stops McLaren making a competitor to the Mazda MX5, for example: the company live at the edge of top-end technology, that is what they're know for and what (in Arri's case) they dominate. They thrive in the pro sector, hold some great patents (like the dual-gain channel sensor architecture in Alexa family cameras) that set them ahead, and they would only open themselves up to un-necessary risk by producing a high-volume consumer/prosumer piece.


This is another point I should have made. 

The set of skills and expertise to manufacture and market high volume products is very different to the process of making and selling niche premium products. 

It would be a big risk trying to switch over from one area to another. 

(or you could just do a Hasselblad and simply stick your name onto an existing product)

 

1 hour ago, Laurier said:

Yes, but here we are talking about Foxconn, they have massive facilities and massive R&D capacities, they are more like sony or panasonic than red, arri or blackmagic .

 


Partnering with another company does substantially reduce that risk, but Foxconn makes parts and not complete products (I think? I could be wrong), and they have no marketing/distribution experience in this area. But hey, maybe that is where RED's closer alignment with Apple might come from? (using Apple to sell Ravens)

 

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

Though, ironically, MEGADRIVE sounds exactly like something RED would call a £100 per gig SSD product ;)

And DREAMCAST is a fairly accurate description of some of their expected release date announcements.

hahaha! oh my, so true, on both counts


 

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Had an interesting conversation today with a friend who owns 2x RED cameras, he is debating if perhaps instead of say a secondhand RED Epic that his purchase should be a Panasonic EVA1 (or something else?). 

Because his worry is that if RED moves down market to the consumer level that will harm RED's perception in the marketplace (by producers/directors/clients/etc), so thus maybe he should just go somewhere else. 

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7 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Had an interesting conversation today with a friend who owns 2x RED cameras, he is debating if perhaps instead of say a secondhand RED Epic that his purchase should be a Panasonic EVA1 (or something else?). 

Because his worry is that if RED moves down market to the consumer level that will harm RED's perception in the marketplace (by producers/directors/clients/etc), so thus maybe he should just go somewhere else. 

I'm not sure about this my man. I take the viewpoint that the narrative will be flipped on it's head, in terms of producers budgeting cameras for a shoot. What the production saves in costs by renting 3 cameras for the current price of one they can allocate the rest of budget towards other production costs, which as you know are many. That's a boon for a producer (looking for industry respect) and ultimately the client. Just because a client gives a film a sizeable budget, doesnt mean they want the producer to go hog wild on equipment. It's the producer's job to inform their clients and make their investment count. 

IF RED, by extension of Foxconn, produces a $10k 8k camera it's going to force Arri to do the same. This is a good thing for everyone, regardless of budget size. 

I want to clear up a misconception I made earlier. The conversation in passing was between RED and Foxconn executives at somekind of event. This really has nothing to do with Apple Inc., other than Foxconn manufactures parts for the iPhone. So does Samsung and other companies. It's not clear to me that Apple by extension is involved in these talks at this point. 

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8 hours ago, IronFilm said:


Imagine how much a premium brand's image would be harmed if a bunch of low budget idiots would start using them?

I can just imagine the complaints already:

"It has shit battery life! I had to buy these expensive V mount batteries, which didn't come with it in the box. Dodgy RED trying to upsell you on hidden costs!"
"It sucks at low light when I'm shooting outdoors at night in the forest with my Canon 18-55mm kit lens!"
"It broke my PC when I loaded these 8K files into my editor and it crashed!"
"This dumb camera doesn't have a portrait selfie mode!"
"The autofocus is hopeless, I wish had never ever brought this camera! I'm sending it back and buying a Canon Rebel"

And so on and so on and so on the reviewers, commentators, social media, and forum posts would go on and on.

Then of course would come the avalanche of dreadful awful looking footage shot with this new "premium" but affordable camera. Because their talent/knowledge/budget/experience isn't even 1% of what the camera is capable of. 

If this is allowed to carry on unchecked for too long, it would end up harming sales of their high end budget cameras as well!

So while I wish Arri would make a $3K camera, I also totally understand the reasons why they wouldn't want to do that. 

 

 

Haha, lots of shit films are shot on the most expensive Hollywood/Altantawood/Londonwood/Bollywood level cameras. Good films are the exception.?

But you're point is valid and I would add the relentless complaints about comparisions to Sony's high ISO parade. ?

Then again, $10k body only is not a cheap investment for most ppl either. Yes, it's cheaper than what the 8k Epic costs right now, but the bar is set way higher than even small profesional productions can afford to purchase outright that need to recoupe short term.

Besides, most production shops do not purchase just one unit. Unless they want 14 hour days. 

The article made no mention of any of the addons coming down in price as well. If so, expect serious compromises in build quality and performance. 

$10k puts the RED in the same bracket as the Sony F5, Canon Cxx, BMD Ursa Mini Pro 4.6k, Panasonic EVA-1, etc. This is not exactly a amateur's bracket. 

If RED was going to release a mirrorless prosumer/consumer level camera, then RED should worry. Then again, they're releasing a smartphone this year so are they really THAT concearned? They obviously see differentiation.

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