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An adventure into the Panasonic GX85/80 begins - and a look at the Leica Nocticron for Micro Four Thirds


Andrew Reid
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21 hours ago, sanveer said:

Hahaha. It's true, though the time period for the newer models is too short.

According to rumors, the update to the G7 and LX100 will be announced around September 19, 2016 and I imagine availability will be in November/December 2016 (in time for X-mas) . I received my GX80 on May 20, 2016. That's a total of 6 months at being the newest. That seems on par with other Panasonic cameras I guess. Actually, I thought the earthquake in Japan would have had an even bigger impact for Panasonic as I believe Sony was making these sensors. Really, the GH5 availability will be the big question.

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On 8 September 2016 at 4:24 PM, John Matthews said:

Sorry, you cannot operate the camera while charging with the USB... stupid, I know. The hack isn't really a hack, just put the device in service mode... search the EOSHD forums or go to Youtube for that hack. If you want continuous for 2 hours, AC is the ONLY option.

Yes, this is really stupid and I found out the hard way doing some long milky way time lapses this summer that the batter life in the GX80 is much less than the same battery in the Gx7 and LX00, especially when I forgot to turn off the IBIS.  I don't know why they didn't allow for USB power of the camera as well as charge the internal battery.

I posted this in another thread, but it is more applicable here:

Look at this guy's blog http://www.grahamhoughton.com/tech-talk for the subject "Building a USB to 8.4v power supply to power your camera for longer periods out doors".  It refers to Panasonic, but I'm sure you can do much of the same for any camera that has a "dummy" battery on the market.  I've ordered the voltage/current converter and dummy battery and I'm going to use it with external USB battery packs for longer time-lapse video (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01FD9X1NK).  I did order the wrong plug to allow me to swap the dummy battery from mains to USB backup.  His blog has all the details, but he also has some videos:

 

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Just bought one of these for my wife to replace her LX100 and spent yesterday doing some tests. Mainly with video.

Nice little camera but I don't find the Dual 5 Axis IBIS anything special when using video (yes, I have updated the lenses and see "Dual" on the screen). The stabilisation is OK but not out of this world using a 12-32 ... certainly not as good as my old E-M1. My NX1 with DIS turned on seems better and more solid.

The most annoying this with this camera is the way Panasonic deal with ISO. No min shutter speed in Auto ISO ... really? This is 2016 and they can't (or won't) implement this. Very weird. Can't assign one of the command dials to ISO full time either. I've assigned ISO to the rear command dial when pressing f1 but when changing ISO you can't see the effect on shutter speed instantaneously. Pretty crap going back and forth to see if your happy with the shutter speed ... especially considering this thing has Dual 5 Axis IBIS and you're meant to be able to shoot stills at a low shutter speed. If using Shutter priority & Auto ISO in Movie mode there's no indication of the aperture being used or the ISO either. The only way to tell what ISO was being used is to look at the actual file in play mode afterwards. No Auto ISO in M mode in movies either. It's like your flying blind with this cam.

Not quite as frustrating as the Lx100 but pretty close in regards to auto ISO. I’d imagine the GX8 & GH4 would certainly have all these features … why leave them out of the GX85 or the LX100?

Make me wonder whether Panasonic are leaving stuff like this out on purpose or are they incapable of implementing features like this in a small camera from a programming standpoint? I know they are not a  Nikon or Canon, but they seem to make a lot of cameras and should have half a clue on what they are doing with software.

My wife will use it as a point & shoot mainly so she won't worry about any of these lacking features but it would annoy me if I had to use all the time for video or stills. 

On the plus side it seems to have a nice image with nice colours in video. Used Natural (0, -5, -5, 0) with FilmConvert with a GH4 profile. I also like the fact that you can use SAF in video and use the shutter button to start recording … very nice for street type shooting that I like to do.

Anyway, it is a nicely built cam with tons of great features and a nice image but their approach to ISO needs looking at IMO.

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1 hour ago, Dean said:

Just bought one of these for my wife to replace her LX100 and spent yesterday doing some tests. Mainly with video.

Nice little camera but I don't find the Dual 5 Axis IBIS anything special when using video (yes, I have updated the lenses and see "Dual" on the screen). The stabilisation is OK but not out of this world using a 12-32 ... certainly not as good as my old E-M1. My NX1 with DIS turned on seems better and more solid.

The most annoying this with this camera is the way Panasonic deal with ISO. No min shutter speed in Auto ISO ... really? This is 2016 and they can't (or won't) implement this. Very weird. Can't assign one of the command dials to ISO full time either. I've assigned ISO to the rear command dial when pressing f1 but when changing ISO you can't see the effect on shutter speed instantaneously. Pretty crap going back and forth to see if your happy with the shutter speed ... especially considering this thing has Dual 5 Axis IBIS and you're meant to be able to shoot stills at a low shutter speed. If using Shutter priority & Auto ISO in Movie mode there's no indication of the aperture being used or the ISO either. The only way to tell what ISO was being used is to look at the actual file in play mode afterwards. No Auto ISO in M mode in movies either. It's like your flying blind with this cam.

Not quite as frustrating as the Lx100 but pretty close in regards to auto ISO. I’d imagine the GX8 & GH4 would certainly have all these features … why leave them out of the GX85 or the LX100?

Make me wonder whether Panasonic are leaving stuff like this out on purpose or are they incapable of implementing features like this in a small camera from a programming standpoint? I know they are not a  Nikon or Canon, but they seem to make a lot of cameras and should have half a clue on what they are doing with software.

My wife will use it as a point & shoot mainly so she won't worry about any of these lacking features but it would annoy me if I had to use all the time for video or stills. 

On the plus side it seems to have a nice image with nice colours in video. Used Natural (0, -5, -5, 0) with FilmConvert with a GH4 profile. I also like the fact that you can use SAF in video and use the shutter button to start recording … very nice for street type shooting that I like to do.

Anyway, it is a nicely built cam with tons of great features and a nice image but their approach to ISO needs looking at IMO.

Sounds like your main beef with the camera is how it/you manage ISO. I really haven't found it that much of a big deal. I just use the ISO button Panasonic gave us. When I'm outside, I just leave at ISO 200 or Auto ISO in Aperture priority mode... shutter always seems high enough for me. Of course, I mainly use the 25mm f1.7 prime. Inside, I just leave in in Auto in Shutter priority or manual. For video, manual is the only option, typically with an ND on it... no  need really.

For the IBIS, a few people have voiced their frustrations, many are using the 12-32. Have people been having good experiences with that lens? You mention the E-M1... are you shooting in 4k with the Panasonic? I'd think it important to compare apples to apples. The GX85's IBIS is still significantly better than the GX8, GH4, LX100, G7, every canon, every nikon, every pentax, etc. I'm sure they'll only get better. Personally, I'm very happy. No, it's not a gimble, but it takes out my micro jitters which is probably all I want from IBIS anyway.

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1 hour ago, John Matthews said:

Sounds like your main beef with the camera is how it/you manage ISO. I really haven't found it that much of a big deal. I just use the ISO button Panasonic gave us. When I'm outside, I just leave at ISO 200 or Auto ISO in Aperture priority mode... shutter always seems high enough for me. Of course, I mainly use the 25mm f1.7 prime. Inside, I just leave in in Auto in Shutter priority or manual. For video, manual is the only option, typically with an ND on it... no  need really.

For the IBIS, a few people have voiced their frustrations, many are using the 12-32. Have people been having good experiences with that lens? You mention the E-M1... are you shooting in 4k with the Panasonic? I'd think it important to compare apples to apples. The GX85's IBIS is still significantly better than the GX8, GH4, LX100, G7, every canon, every nikon, every pentax, etc. I'm sure they'll only get better. Personally, I'm very happy. No, it's not a gimble, but it takes out my micro jitters which is probably all I want from IBIS anyway.

Yeah, for sure, don't get me wrong ... nice camera and jammed with features.

My beef is with the they way the approach ISO / min shutter etc but not just that ... I find it strange that Panasonic chooses not to tell you what ISO the camera is choosing when shooting video and in "S" mode in video the chosen aperture is not displayed either. Guess I'm just spoiled with my NX1 and my Nikons and their software. Samsung seem to have the usability and menu systems very right on the NX1.

I have also found that the features I'd like on the GX85 do not seem to be present on any Panasonic body which I find amazing. It must be that they are not able on a technical level to be able to program these things in ... doesn't seem like any other reason they would leave them out.

With regards to the IBIS, maybe the 12-32 is not as great as other lenses. I was expecting more though and I am guessing, but once the EM1 mkii is released it will considerably steadier than any of Panasonic's offerings. As mentioned, OIS combined with DIS on my NX1 seems much steadier and way less "floaty" than the GX85.

Definitely a lot better than the LX100 though which is why I bought it ... and not too much bigger either.

I'll continue to use the GX85 and test it. Want to get a 30/1.7 and a 42.5/1.7 for it.

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1 hour ago, Dean said:

My beef is with the they way the approach ISO / min shutter etc but not just that ... I find it strange that Panasonic chooses not to tell you what ISO the camera is choosing when shooting video and in "S" mode in video the chosen aperture is not displayed either. Guess I'm just spoiled with my NX1 and my Nikons and their software. Samsung seem to have the usability and menu systems very right on the NX1.

I do have another thought regarding the ISO. The GX85 is ISO invariant up to ISO 1600. My recommendation would be to take photos in M at ISO 200 (native ISO) and just shoot away in RAW only mode. Don't chimp the photos because you won't be happy- way too dark. Take them into Lightroom or whatever and adjust your exposure. Shoot like this will mean you have the same amount of noise in your shadows as you would shooting at ISO1600, but you don't blow the highlights. Also, you can just set the SS to your liking in M mode. As long as the conditions don't require anything above ISO 1600, you'll get good results. For someone who cannot do this (i.e.- my wife), I just put into P mode and hope for the best.

1 hour ago, Dean said:

With regards to the IBIS, maybe the 12-32 is not as great as other lenses. I was expecting more though and I am guessing, but once the EM1 mkii is released it will considerably steadier than any of Panasonic's offerings. As mentioned, OIS combined with DIS on my NX1 seems much steadier and way less "floaty" than the GX85.

The GX85's IBIS issue would definitely be floating if anything. Personally, I just try to minimize with technique as much as possible; the rest is left to software if necessary. I sure am happy with taking out the micro-jitters though. The NX1 was/is a great camera- hold on to it because it might have more value one day since camera manufacturers can't seem to replicate its functionality. Again though, the GX85 (with the 12-32) is a much smaller package and not really comparable to the NX1 (with OIS lens). The EM1 mkii could be a winner, but it's competing more with the GH5, which could have even better IBIS/ DUAL IS than the GX85. We'll see.

1 hour ago, Dean said:

Definitely a lot better than the LX100 though which is why I bought it ... and not too much bigger either.

I'll continue to use the GX85 and test it. Want to get a 30/1.7 and a 42.5/1.7 for it.

The LX100 is a sleeper video camera though at the wide end. I wouldn't mind picking it up just for that alone. Quirky, yes, but still quite capable. Panasonic/Olypus can't seem to make a cheaper 12mm; really the only option when on a lower budget is the Samyang 12mm F2.0... or you get a used LX100 and you get a even wider and brighter lens with the option of a second body... still thinking this one through.

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1 hour ago, John Matthews said:

I do have another thought regarding the ISO. The GX85 is ISO invariant up to ISO 1600. My recommendation would be to take photos in M at ISO 200 (native ISO) and just shoot away in RAW only mode. Don't chimp the photos because you won't be happy- way too dark. Take them into Lightroom or whatever and adjust your exposure. Shoot like this will mean you have the same amount of noise in your shadows as you would shooting at ISO1600, but you don't blow the highlights. Also, you can just set the SS to your liking in M mode. As long as the conditions don't require anything above ISO 1600, you'll get good results. For someone who cannot do this (i.e.- my wife), I just put into P mode and hope for the best.

The GX85's IBIS issue would definitely be floating if anything. Personally, I just try to minimize with technique as much as possible; the rest is left to software if necessary. I sure am happy with taking out the micro-jitters though. The NX1 was/is a great camera- hold on to it because it might have more value one day since camera manufacturers can't seem to replicate its functionality. Again though, the GX85 (with the 12-32) is a much smaller package and not really comparable to the NX1 (with OIS lens). The EM1 mkii could be a winner, but it's competing more with the GH5, which could have even better IBIS/ DUAL IS than the GX85. We'll see.

The LX100 is a sleeper video camera though at the wide end. I wouldn't mind picking it up just for that alone. Quirky, yes, but still quite capable. Panasonic/Olypus can't seem to make a cheaper 12mm; really the only option when on a lower budget is the Samyang 12mm F2.0... or you get a used LX100 and you get a even wider and brighter lens with the option of a second body... still thinking this one through.

I'm not sure, John. The work around you suggest will work but needn't be done. In 2016 all these features should be standard. Panasonic is either just ignorant or technically incapable of implementing such features. 

The issue over here in HK is that's it's so damn bright most of the time, when street shooting you just want to set the shutter in at min around 1/320 and have the ISO float when you move into dark areas like alley ways or heavy shadows. Or when in bright areas it will just raise the shutter speed. Many say just use manual and set the shutter speed but the issue with this is that you get a massively overexposed image a lot of the time. You miss a lot of shots in the street when having to fiddle with unnecessary settings. 

I found the LX100 to be super frustrating ... there's like 1 million moves to go from taking stills to shooting video with a correct shutter speed :) LX200 won't be any better I reckon but lets see. I haven't shot with it enough to realise it's that good at the wide end.

Hopefully the EM1 mkii has decent video but Oly always find someway to frac video up ... maybe this time is different but wouldn't bet on  it. The IBIS for sure will be amazing.

Going to borrow my friends 30/1.7 next week and test it out on the GX85 for stills & video. Looks like a nice little lens ... as does the 42.5/1.7.

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2 hours ago, Dean said:

I'm not sure, John. The work around you suggest will work but needn't be done. In 2016 all these features should be standard. Panasonic is either just ignorant or technically incapable of implementing such features. 

An ISO invariant sensor is really cool. Most Canons don't have it; hence blown highlights. Many photographers (including pros) talk about this. Minimum shutters at programmable ISOs is a feature that would be easy to put in a camera nonetheless... maybe next version.

3 hours ago, Dean said:

 

The issue over here in HK is that's it's so damn bright most of the time, when street shooting you just want to set the shutter in at min around 1/320 and have the ISO float when you move into dark areas like alley ways or heavy shadows. Or when in bright areas it will just raise the shutter speed. Many say just use manual and set the shutter speed but the issue with this is that you get a massively overexposed image a lot of the time. You miss a lot of shots in the street when having to fiddle with unnecessary settings. 

I found the LX100 to be super frustrating ... there's like 1 million moves to go from taking stills to shooting video with a correct shutter speed :) LX200 won't be any better I reckon but lets see. I haven't shot with it enough to realise it's that good at the wide end.

Hopefully the EM1 mkii has decent video but Oly always find someway to frac video up ... maybe this time is different but wouldn't bet on  it. The IBIS for sure will be amazing.

Going to borrow my friends 30/1.7 next week and test it out on the GX85 for stills & video. Looks like a nice little lens ... as does the 42.5/1.7.

Not sure about the new version of the LX100 (supposedly LX15). I think a new lens might be what you need for the GX85 as I think a GX85 (with the 12-32) isn't much of an upgrade when comparing it to the LX100. If I were you, I'd go for something wider than the 30mm; or, are you going to still use the LX100?

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40 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

An ISO invariant sensor is really cool. Most Canons don't have it; hence blown highlights. Many photographers (including pros) talk about this. Minimum shutters at programmable ISOs is a feature that would be easy to put in a camera nonetheless... maybe next version.

Not sure about the new version of the LX100 (supposedly LX15). I think a new lens might be what you need for the GX85 as I think a GX85 (with the 12-32) isn't much of an upgrade when comparing it to the LX100. If I were you, I'd go for something wider than the 30mm; or, are you going to still use the LX100?

I don't really use the LX100 ever ... my wife does. I was planning on the GX85 being a replacement for it but I'll use it as well. Kind of like killing 2 birds with one stone :) 

She'll probably not end up using it ever after hearing her talk about the new iPhone 7 camera ... I think that's it for her and non phone cameras. I have a feeling the iPhone 7 will be her camera from now on. Sad but true. 

Sorry, my bad ... I meant the Pana 15/1.7 (30 equiv) which looks like a great lens. 30 equiv should be perfect. There's some totally amazing lenses for M43 now.

BTW, I've been messing around with the settings tonight and found a bit of a work around for being able to see the aperture & ISO the camera is choosing when using Shutter priority for video. If you shoot video in stills "S" mode instead of movie "S" mode, you can see the aperture and ISO the camera is choosing. As soon as you press record, the info goes and your only left with the shutter speed read out but at least that infos there before you start shooting. The image is also slightly cropped when you press record but nothing major that can't be taken into account. You also loose the ability to use the shutter button to begin recording. I seem to remember you could still use the shutter to start video recording in the LX100 if you went into 4K mode but it doesn't work with the GX85 ... it seems to be taking a series of images. 

I've set 3 custom modes. (1) ... Aperture priority for stills, (2) ... Shutter priority for movies (inc changing the aspect ratio to 16:9) & (3) Manual for movies. Turned off all touch screen except for being able to press the custom button on the top left of the screen. Can just leave the cam in "C" on the mode wheel then touch the screen to get into 1,2 or 3 of th custom modes. The different modes seem to remember each setting including different colour profiles etc.

Happy !!

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3 minutes ago, Dean said:

You also loose the ability to use the shutter button to begin recording. I seem to remember you could still use the shutter to start video recording in the LX100 if you went into 4K mode but it doesn't work with the GX80 ... it seems to be taking a series of images. 

I only use the shutter for starting and stopping video in 4k movie mode. I just set up a C mode (that is movie M mode), had the camera set for F4, 1/50, ISO 200, WB, etc.- that's my starting point whenever I film. For photos, I slap in A mode or M mode. I used to have a RX100... could only shoot it reliably in S mode- hated it, but go some nice shots.

10 minutes ago, Dean said:

I meant the Pana 15/1.7 (30 equiv) which looks like a great lens. 30 equiv should be perfect. There's some totally amazing lenses for M43 now.

I would also like this lens, but it's more expensive than the Samyang and it has a ton of distortion (not on video though). I wish there was another option.

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15 hours ago, Dean said:

I find it strange that Panasonic chooses not to tell you what ISO the camera is choosing when shooting video and in "S" mode in video the chosen aperture is not displayed either.

With regards to the IBIS, maybe the 12-32 is not as great as other lenses. I was expecting more though and I am guessing, but once the EM1 mkii is released it will considerably steadier than any of Panasonic's offerings. As mentioned, OIS combined with DIS on my NX1 seems much steadier and way less "floaty" than the GX85.

Definitely a lot better than the LX100 though which is why I bought it ... and not too much bigger either.

I too find it a bit awkward that in A or S mode on a Panasonic you can't see the ISO or S/A that the camera selected.  For the GX80, I find that the IBIS gets a bit wobbly when doing some sort of movement with wider lenses such as the Olympus 9-18 or 7-14.  With the Panasonic 12-35/2.8 and dual-IS it works better and really controls the jitters on the Panasonic 35-100/2.8 zoom.  Check out my youtube videos where I tested out the IS of various Olympus and Panasonic cameras including the LX100, EM5-II, and GX80.

I had the LX100 and sold it in anticipation of the LX200 and hopefully the better colour rendition like the GX80 (check out my test of the LX100/G7/GX80 colour).  I don't know if it was the (auto) white balance, or the LX100 lens, or the "JPEG" rendering but the LX100 would give me some funky colours in the skin and lips sometimes.  Also a tilt/touch screen would be nice as I use the EVF+touch focus for stills a lot.  As you say, the GX80 isn't much larger than the LX100, except when you need something faster than the pancake lenses (like the Panasonic 2.8 zoom or even the 15mm/1.7 prime).  The GX80 is also much heavier than the LX100 and doesn't have as good a thumb grip.

I've recently sold my Olympus cameras and most Olympus lenses and replaced them with two GX80.  I hope to get the LX100 replacement as it is a fantastic travel camera, and I could probably get by with the LX200+Gimbal and the GX80 with Panasonic 35-100/2.8 for most things. 

I didn't find switching between stills and video mode that tricky.  I assigned custom settings to the bottom left function button and C1 to stills and C2 to video.  I mostly shot stills in A mode, so to switch to video it was: Function button (select C2=video), shutter dial to 60 (rear wheel jog to 1/50), Aperture dial to A.  I would pop on a 3 or 6-stop ND depending on how bright the scene was.  Outside I used ISO 200 and inside auto-ISO. It would be easier if Panasonic told you what A it was selecting as sometime you need to jump into M mode to find out.

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15 hours ago, John Matthews said:

I only use the shutter for starting and stopping video in 4k movie mode. I just set up a C mode (that is movie M mode), had the camera set for F4, 1/50, ISO 200, WB, etc.- that's my starting point whenever I film. For photos, I slap in A mode or M mode. I used to have a RX100... could only shoot it reliably in S mode- hated it, but go some nice shots.

I would also like this lens, but it's more expensive than the Samyang and it has a ton of distortion (not on video though). I wish there was another option.

The amount of lenses I buy and sell these days I only ever buy used and the 15/1.7 second hand is not badly priced over here 2nd hand ... I've seen them for around $2,200 HKD (USD 280) regularly on DCFever (like a HK eBay for used photo gear). I'll test my mate's 15/1.7 this weekend but I'm sure it will be great. the 15/1.7 & 42.5/1.7 look like a great walk around combo for this cam.

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4 hours ago, Dean said:

The amount of lenses I buy and sell these days I only ever buy used and the 15/1.7 second hand is not badly priced over here 2nd hand ... I've seen them for around $2,200 HKD (USD 280) regularly on DCFever (like a HK eBay for used photo gear). I'll test my mate's 15/1.7 this weekend but I'm sure it will be great. the 15/1.7 & 42.5/1.7 look like a great walk around combo for this cam.

Agreed... and that's a fair price for that lens too.

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Here's what I mean by the Dual IBIS being so so ... 4 scenes in this clip ... the first three are jittery and the fourth is more floaty. The floaty type happened more often than not (which I think is Ok) but the jittery type happened about 20% of the time. I'll try and do more testing this weekend. But like I said, I reckon Panasonic's implementation of the Dual 5 Axis is not that great. This was with the 12-32 and the lens had been updated and "Dual" was showing on the LCD. Electronic stabilisation was set to off. The NX1's DIS & OIS & A7Rii's & Oly's stabilisation are all better IMO (owned all three) ... 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Dean said:

Here's what I mean by the Dual IBIS being so so ... 4 scenes in this clip ... the first three are jittery and the fourth is more floaty. The floaty type happened more often than not (which I think is Ok) but the jittery type happened about 20% of the time. I'll try and do more testing this weekend. But like I said, I reckon Panasonic's implementation of the Dual 5 Axis is not that great.

I have yet to see clips with IBIS on like the first three clips you showed. The floaty one is more like it... not sure what's going on... I don't have a Dual IS capable lens; so, I can't say. The first 3 clips are as if they were filmed on a A6300 with no IS. If you're not getting consistent results with the same settings, I'd say something is wrong. Do more tests and make sure the settings are correct... 4k movie mode, 180 degree shutter speed, etc. Maybe someone else has some ideas...

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1 hour ago, John Matthews said:

I have yet to see clips with IBIS on like the first three clips you showed. The floaty one is more like it... not sure what's going on... I don't have a Dual IS capable lens; so, I can't say. The first 3 clips are as if they were filmed on a A6300 with no IS. If you're not getting consistent results with the same settings, I'd say something is wrong. Do more tests and make sure the settings are correct... 4k movie mode, 180 degree shutter speed, etc. Maybe someone else has some ideas...

Yeah, not sure what's going on ... will test some more. Like I said, didn't happen all the time but did happen. I used "S" movie priority. 24p 4k ... shutter @ 1/50 using an X4 49mm 3 stop ND filter for all of those scenes.

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