TomTheDP

I have already given up RAW, battery life, size and resolution for dynamic range, color science, and fast readout (the Alexa Classic).

Dynamic range and color science are top priority for me and then sensor readout speed. After that battery life, then weight and then resolution.

The most reliable ones I've found so far are the Angelbird cards, which they have only tested for the original Pocket but I can vouch that they work on the BMMCC although I haven't tested 60fps since I almost never use slow motion. I got two of the 128 gig cards from them a couple of years ago and they've been rock solid. If I remember correctly 60fps is not available in uncompressed raw anyway, I think you can shoot it in CDNG raw 3:1 and ProRes, but I haven't checked the manual to confirm. You may have to check with Angelbird directly to see if they still have these cards available; for a while they had removed them from their website but when I wrote to them they said they still had a good number of them and sold two to me.
As far as I know, no new cards support 60fps on the BMMCC; only the old SanDisk ones that were approved by BMD. I have a stash of those that I use along with the Angelbirds.
The cheapest cards I found that worked were the Kingston Canvas Select, but mine only lasted a year before giving up the ghost. Those were reliable for ProRes and CDNG up to 30fps but I did occasionally get frame drops in raw at 30fps and even once or twice with ProRes.
If you don't mind ProRes, the way to extend the lifetime of this camera is to get one of BMD's newer video assists or another external monitor/recorder that records ProRes; those can accept modern SD cards.

Just came back from a passion project shoot in South America. A mix of talking head interviews and capturing b-roll on most days. I had 6 batteries (4 oem and 2 off brand) - no grip - and the battery drain issue wasn't as big of a deal as I thought it would be. Of course we all have different workflows/needs etc. 

Update for anyone interested.
I got a P6KG2 (I don't really need built-in ND and WEX were offering a free viewfinder).
I also bought a lovely Nikon 50-300mm AIS ED (from Grays of Westminster) which looks fun although I have not yet assembled enough Smallrig bits and pieces to adequately support it. I suspect it'd pull the front off the Blackmagic if left unsupported. Balancing it on the tripod will be a challenge.  I also have the Nikon 24,28,50,85  (Urth F-EF adapters) and I got what must be the most awful lens I have ever handled - the Canon EF50 (optically I'm sure it's wonderful but it feels utterly dreadful and even more cheap than it was). What  little footage I've seen from the monster zoom looks quite promising and the sheer imposing nature of the thing definitely inspires me to want to get out and film stuff. There is something special about a smooth focus ring. And enjoying the process is, for me, at least as important as the product (which realistically only a handful of people will watch so arguably is actually the least important aspect of the activity...)
Couple of downsides: the battery grip seems to make the camera reluctant to switch off and the Kondor Blue cage simply doesn't fit (the USB C cable holder is in the wrong place and is too small). Now replaced by single NP batteries and a Smallrig cage. Battery grip for sale!

Yes, I think the first shot of the sun coming up on the landscape has a fade in of something like sixty seconds. So like, it is indeed getting brighter in the scene but I'm also doing a one minute fade in from black. At the time I probably needed RAW for this. I think it was just before the GH5 10bit 422 era.
You mentioned in a DM that the original file downloaded from Vimeo is much cleaner. There is terrible banding in the streaming version for the first minute, but the footage itself is pristine.
What's interesting to me looking at it now is the softness of the footage as I'm used to looking at 4K (and I think the softnes looks great). I may have shot it at 2.8K or something, I'm not sure, for 2048 x whatever DCP delivery. But then I may even have blurred it a little bit! I know I definitely blurred the title and end credits as they looked a bit too sharp to me.

I have never had to make that choice as the difference in price is minimal. If you are getting an Alexa Mini or Sony Venice that is a different story.
But yes between choosing one of the 12 bit readout cameras on the market and an older RED or Alexa I would definitely go with RED or Alexa. I always have access to basic lighting packages. Now if it were a situation where I thought we would have to film at 6400 iso or something I would have to go with something like a S1H but aside from that personally I wouldn't.

Looking at Gerald Undone's review and his dynamic range tests of that sensor, it looks significantly better than the previous Fuji sensor which I owned at one point. Almost purchased the XH2S as soon as I saw that review and his findings.

A lot of the dynamic range of that sensor is in the shadows and it does get noisy. But if the color rendition is maintained and the noise monochromatic I like that look. One of the traits of an Alexa is that underexposure results in noise. However it doesn't have color noise and maintains color rendition nicely. Of course the XH2S doesn't have the Alexa's highlight retention.

@jpfilmz
There is also something about older canon color science that is really nice.

@hyalinejim very nice work!

I realized recently that the FZ47 has a sensor that is almost the exact same width as Super 8mm film. I put a pistol grip on mine and used the tiny EVF (I did cheat and use the LCD a few times) and long zoom lens for a very Super 8-esque shooting experience. Next time I'll shoot in 640x480 instead of 1080P so that I can capture the correct aspect ratio in-camera. As a bonus, the 29.97fps looks very natural on a 15fps timeline. And of course I always love working with that global shutter.
 

Yes but that is the only way to make money when you don't have an obscene amount of money to market to general audiences.

The look difference these cameras have extends past just white balance and tint differences. Shooting in REC709 isn't bad per say. Really depends on the camera's processing. I prefer organic looking noise, REC709 profiles often use aggressive NR which gets rid of all organic looking texture. Some are worse than others. Another issue is things like color clipping and highlight roll off which are sometimes handled poorly in REC709 profiles. This is why I usually prefer to shoot log.

But for fast turn around or low paying stuff where the client doesn't care a baked in look is sometimes the way to go for sure. Also if you just shoot a lot of home video or self documentary stuff, it can be nice to save the space and shoot 8 bit.

I also agree with @PannySVHS It can really depend on the camera/codec/processing. All 8 bit isn't equal, same with 10 bit.

I don't feel you really have to grade log. You can just put on a lut and adjust the exposure if you need/want.

But in terms of your question I would say it depends what other features you are looking for.

The Canon R8, FX30, or Panasonic S5 MK2 seem like good relatively budget options. If you can, renting or borrowing is the best way to really see if you like a camera as IQ is only one aspect.

This was one of the films I watched right before I bought my 5D3! Great look!

I still…even with the bmpcc4k and R5 8k raw haven’t be able to replicate this look and motion from 5D3 Raw.
 
 

Two big categories: cats & backyards 

At the risk of going off topic, I also remember when on video forums people would post videos that they had made!
It's the same everywhere else. On FB groups people post pics of their setup rather than something that they shot with it.
By the way I think it's worth pointing out that the original post of this topic was something along the lines of "does 14bit give noticeably better colour?". It's a perfectly valid question or talking point for discussion about one aspect of image quality, and has nothing whatsoever to do with lighting, story, frosted glass or frosted flakes or whatever somebody had for their breakfast... So to veer off into those topics is to miss the point of this thread.
Now, here's a video! This is the last project I shot on the 5D3. Hope you like slow cinema!
 

Actually music videos are my favorite type of project to work on, if there was any money at all in it in my area I would shoot a lot more but where I live the artists have no money and music artists aren't really a big thing here. 
The key to music videos is to be very selective with who you work with. You quickly learn to decline projects where the artists wants cars, women, and mansions for their $500 budget. I also won't shoot any that feature guns, drugs, violence, etc. because their tiny budget wouldn't offset the number of high-end clientele that type of content could drive away from my business. The best clients in my area are in the $1500-$5000 range and they let you do your job which is to create the visuals for their lyrics. 
 
 
I think weddings are like everything else, the conditions have to be right for them to be worth it. Just like music videos and the big events that I shoot, where you are located can completely change the types of projects that are profitable or enjoyable. In a small town with no big profitable events, my business model would not work.
To me weddings are my least favorite of all projects. In my area they don't pay very well since this is not a wedding destination and there's tons of wedding videographers/photographers here, and the sheer disorganization of it all combined with trying to get a few min of the bride and groom's time on their wedding day and combined with trying to get everyone mic'd up for good audio makes it just not something I want to shoot.
Also, the only geographic feature here is the beaches so everyone wants a beach wedding which is blazing hot in the summer so you have to worry about your gear overheating and the sand gets into every single crevice of your equipment.  In an area with less competition, that is a wedding destination, where weddings paid better I would be more inclined to pursue that type of work. 

I just have one word:
Weddings 💰
Sure, they don’t have the caché of shooting music videos never mind even short films, but a lot more creative freedom compared with working for an actual client!
OK, the couple are your client but if you are doing it right, they will have next to zero creative input.
If I could restart my career, sure, I’d rather be working towards being the cinematographer on Dune, but like 95% of actors who work in coffee shops to make ends meet, I decided to be the indépendant coffee shop owner over the casual working there.
I digress, but the one thing this industry has taught me is to steer well clear of demanding people with ‘ideas’ 🤪

Full 6k 3:2 is not possible with cDNG because of the enormous data rates which need to be transferred to the USB-C drive - drives are too slow over USB-C for that.
The sensor is natively able to produce something like 3k in 3:2 though, hoping for SIGMA to implement that mode. For the SIRUI 1.6x that would be a perfect match. 😉

That is brutal. 
Just to get a basic yearly income he'll have to do two each and every week!
And that includes: marketing to find new clients, onboarding them, doing the preproduction, doing the shoot itself, doing all the postproduction himself (otherwise that eats into profits) and delivery! 

That's nothing, this year I shot 3 music videos for a total of $500....yes you read that right, not $500/ea but $500 total and still managed to make it profitable. I used a single venue, a model who was willing to work for free, 3hrs to film all 3, and about 3hrs on the edits. Yes they look like $500 music videos but that's because they were. Even the audio tracks for each video was recorded live in a single take for each one. Two hours filming the performances and audio live, 1hr filming b-roll and it was a wrap.
I agree with you on the volume thing though, I couldn't do that every month let alone every week. They were a nice break from my normal work, but no way would I want that to be my niche.

I work on mostly low budget feature films in the 30k realm. They can actually be incredibly profitable if you know what you are doing.

We've seen Canon intentionally gimp their own cameras, putting in inferior hardware that would cause overheating. I personally doubt it is an issue of can't. Of course we now have the XH2S, with a sony sensor(maybe?) that is doing a 14 bit readout. The shadow retention on that camera is quite impressive especially for a S35 sensor, which I assume has a lot to do with the 14 bit readout. Performance was gimped by fuji's weird Xtrans filter and bad processing.

 Most things come down to money but I also see a lot of incompetency with these camera companies, which is also probably stemming from a lack of budget in R&D. The camera market is pretty dead. In terms of marketing I don't know, I don't work for these companies. I am just making guesses.

I have used lower end cameras for a long time. Recently in 2022 and this year I have had the chance to shoot on RED and ARRI for several feature film projects. I was of the opinion that it is a waste of money and time to shoot with these cameras for the most part. I don't hold that opinion anymore. At the end of several of my projects last year I was questioning the merit of using a heavier, older cinema camera vs something much lighter and quicker to use. Once I started coloring the projects I changed my mind. The EPIC Dragon and Alexa EV are both pretty old tech as well. I am excited to possibly shoot with the RED monstro or LF soon.

Am I focusing on things that don't matter? Maybe? I am not a director, the story is not my realm. My job is the image which is achieved through the camera and lighting. Everything in my line of work is arbitrary to some degree. It is art. It's choosing between using a frost or white diffusion. Does the audience care? What is too much and what is too little? I don't know. Small things that add up. It's an obsessive job but that is part of the fun, at least to me.

Anyways I am hopeful to see something with 14 bit readout on the market soon that is in the affordable range. Rooting for Panasonic. 






 

I guess you are mixing output format with processing format.
From https://www.arri.com/en/learn-help/arri-camera-technology/best-overall-image-quality
 

The Alexa does a 14 bit readout. RED does 16 bit. The Alexa uses 12 bit log both in RAW and ProRes. RED uses 16 bit linear. If you look up the difference between linear and log you’ll get it. 
All RED cameras, ARRI, and Sony Venice do either 14 bit or 16 bit readout. 
 
All prosumer cameras like the S1, Sony FX cameras, Canon’s entire lineup do either a 12 bit readout or 10 bit readout. This is why these cameras 12 bit raw performs poorly compared to ARRIs 10 bit, as even when recording 422, ARRI is doing a 14 bit readout. Of course the unique ARRI sensor and color science/processing makes a big difference too. 
 
As someone who’s job it is to give the best picture possible I have shot engaging projects with the S1 and in post have been disappointed in the image. This is what I am saying. I have used a wide variety of cameras on narrative shorts and features. I avoid shooting with low end options unless it’s forced by the budget. It just makes my job harder. 
 
The Komodo is great but it is a cheap sensor being used. If you like side by side tests I’ve done them, Komodo vs Alexa. The Komodo’s lack of dynamic range is apparent and the color science/skin tones are noticeably different. This is when shooting with natural light. The Komodo simply can’t hold onto the highlights. 
 
Blind tests are great for YouTube content but they don’t offer much practical info for using a camera on production. 
 
I do think there is a practical limitation on what is good enough. ARRI is that limitation.  14 bit readout into a 12 bit log, 4k resolution, and about 14 stops of dynamic range. The Alexa 35 goes to 17 stops of dynamic range, a bit overkill but I can see how it would be helpful sometimes. They stuck with 4k resolution and a 14 bit readout. That seems to give you what you’d need in post production. Which has definitely been my practical experience. 
 
I am specifically talking narrative use on production. If one is just shooting their own content it definitely doesn’t matter much. I definitely don’t recommend everyone go pick up an ARRI or RED camera. But for people who do what I do, I usually would. This industry is very niche though and I’m in my own little small niche within it. 

1080p raw video with 12ish stops of DR is hardly an obsession in IQ.
Isn't the goal to get more DR, more bitrate, more color information? I, believe, @TomTheDP 's point in this post is that a group of part time coders were able to unlock, and write, a fairly stable firmware which opened a zeitgeist of cinema settings and 14bit raw video on a prosumer camera, so surely official firmware from one of the manufacturers could easily match their efforts from 11 years ago
12bit video can display up to 68 billion shades of color, 14bit can display up to 4 trillion. Surely, those numbers will be closer when the image goes through the pipeline to an eventual rec709 delivery, but to say it will have zero effect on the final image just isn't true.
If it doesn't matter to you... cool! It doesn't mean it isn't important to someone else.
That said, I agree that story is king. But as you suggested, any aspect that supports the story and the director's vision is a worthy goal.

Blind tests aren't of much use. The zakuto blind tests says that a GH1 and 35mm film are equal. So why didn't camera development stop there? It would indicate 10 bit log, 4k, high bitrate, and anything beyond 8 stops of dynamic range, doesn't really matter. Cameras aren't developed or sold on blind tests. I don't think any professional is choosing a camera based on blind tests either. They have certainly offered no use to me.

You can argue IQ has nothing to do with making a pleasing looking image. That is definitely true in many ways. But it has nothing to do with marketing. You can say that marketing is all bullshit. I'd agree with that. 8k is useless for 99% of people yet it is a great buzzword for marketing. You are saying though that 14 bit recording is useless and blind tests somehow prove this.

If you are simply trying to say that 14 bit isn't marketable, that could be true. I am not a marketing specialist.  But camera companies don't use blind tests to market or else they would all be out of business.

In my experience when you actually use a camera on production and work with it through post, then you see a difference. There isn't really much debate there. Can a film look good that isn't shot on a cinema camera? Yes of course. But cameras like ARRI and RED are industry favored by pretty much any DP you would ask.

To me DP's are usually the last people to fall for marketing hype. These people see images constantly from production all the way to the finished product. ARRI isn't favored because of internet blind tests, they are favored because they actually make production and post workflow much easier. I'd love it if my S1 could give me the same image as an Alexa. But from my experience it just doesn't.

If you want a good test of a camera shoot 100 different scenes in all different scenarios, time restraints, lighting conditions, different sized crews, and then color correct and grade all of the shots and scenes. Do that with 5 different cameras and than compare them all. Well that couldn't be put in a little 5 minute youtube video. Stuff that is actually helpful can't be compressed into a little youtube video. Experience gotten from months of shooting and in post gives one a good idea of what matters.

Anyways 14 bit plus capture, even if it is just the readout is the way forward to better IQ imo. The Alexa shooting in 422 is still using a 14 bit readout. That is partially why it looks way better than cameras that are shooting 12 bit linear raw, which is a marketing scam.  12 bit linear raw really doesn't give you any more information to work with than a good 10 bit ALL-I. The advantage is it sometimes gets around the horrid internal processing many cameras do to their 10 bit options for some reason. But it also often reveals how shitty consumer sensors are in the shadows, bad colored noise and banding that is normally hidden by heavy noise reduction.

The Alexa has a 14 bit readout regardless of if you shoot 422 or 444 or RAW.

Anyways I am just expressing my disappointment in camera development. I would extend that disappointment to the high end cameras as well. RED is partially to blame in my opinion. They pushed the whole high resolution band wagon that consumer cameras jumped on. 10 years later and the best camera in the world the Alexa 35 only shoots 4k, while RED releases cameras for 1/2 what they did their previous line-up, with sensors that can't even match ARRI's 5 year old cameras. 13 years ago the Alexa came onto the market, the camera that replaced film essentially. 13 years later it's still the best sensor on the market, only surpassed by ARRI's own Alexa 35.

It's unfortunate resolution got put on the forefront of development instead of color depth, which also leads to increased dynamic range.

Am I saying the 5D MK3 is the pinnacle of image quality? No I am not. But it was capable of giving you a high bitrate 14 bit 1080p image. That was 11 years ago. Why can't we have 14 bit RAW 3K-4K in a small prosumer camera 11 years later. We get the same releases with a MK2 slapped onto it, with micro improvements. Very annoying.

Now you can tell me these are first world problems and I will gladly agree. I am in between projects right now and don't have any kids, so I have the time. And if this forum is not the place to vent about the BS that camera companies do than maybe I am just very confused.