kye

27 minutes ago, Django said:

Fuji XT2 is pretty inconspicuous. Especially with F2 WR primes. I've shot with it in parts of India & Morocco where a bigger or more digital looking camera might have got me in trouble. A lot people thought it was an old film camera. XPRo2 would probably be even better in that regard. 5D3 is definitely not the most discrete camera and with lack of EVF/tiltscreen it yells i'm shooting video. I found D750 way more discrete for street shooting. If you are going to use a DSLR mask logos etc with black tape. Use pancake/short lenses to make it look a little more point & shoot. How you dress & act in public is also key for this type of shooting imo. Gotta blend in / look amateur  

Similar advice to when you don't want your camera to get stolen

I've been reluctant to go for a larger sized camera body, as before I got into photography that was how I judged if a person was a professional photographer (wrong I know, but it is what it is)!

In terms of looking the part, I think I've got that down...  I just got back from a 10 day trip to the Northern Territory of Australia and in addition to the shorts, t-shirt, backpack, and scowl from wrangling kids I also bought one of these so I didn't burnt to a crisp in the sun:

I'm pretty sure that no-one, after seeing my hat, had the inclination to take me seriously 

19 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

For anyone looking for cards, here's the specs off BM's site. It's based off 30fps, so I imagine double it for 60p?

I can't confirm it but your assumption makes sense.

It also means trouble for what is fast enough to write to it!  RAW at 60p would be 540MB/s

Taking a look at the most expensive cards on B&H:
ARRI 512GB Extreme PRO CFast 2.0 Memory Card - 450MB/s
Angelbird 256GB AV Pro CF CFast 2.0 Memory Card - 400MB/s
Lexar 512GB Professional 3500x CFast 2.0 Memory Card - 445MB/s
ProGrade Digital 512GB CFast 2.0 Memory Card - 450MB/s

of course, sane people would just shoot compressed, but considering this thread is about specs... 

4 hours ago, kaylee said:

to me "Guerrilla" filmmaking means: shooting illegally or in a grey area where you must be clandestine

im doing that in multiple ways for my lil short im working on. guerrilla shooting is punk rock and awesome – and tons of big time productions have "stolen" shots here and there

5d3 raw is totally inconspicuous~! no one cares lol

For me it's actually slightly different - I'm shooting totally legally but I must still be clandestine.

I'm shooting in places where people can shoot video of their kid with their phone, but if I shot the same shot with a C300 then I would get kicked out or get hassled or attract unwanted attention from the surrounding public.  I'm not doing anything wrong, but I also want to use a better camera than my phone without getting hassled, thus the need to be clandestine.

With your 5d3, what lenses and sound equipment do you use?  and where do you shoot?  I find it to be a question of how big your camera setup looks that is the main factor unfortunately...

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Shockingly on the film I just wrapped on yesterday, we didn't have an AD (well, technically we had one.....  but practically speaking? nah)

When my sister was in film school I helped out on a few sets where the AD was present in name only....  you'd hope that once people start getting paid that things would improve!!

4 hours ago, Axel said:

Thanks, kye!

I'm not sure if you were asking for recommendations, or just being thankful that I offered...  but regardless, here's a few 'vlogging' channels with high production value:

• https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpnuadQ_w3r6f4Q_NRlqd-w Kraig Adams - makes vlogs and travel films on A7SII - used to be a pro wedding videographer
• https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3DkFux8Iv-aYnTRWzwaiBA Peter McKinnon - makes photography / videography focused vlogs and shoots C300 in studio and 1DXII out of the office

Here's a few channels with high production value that aren't 'vlogging' channels:

• https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3stPIuUoCDHG7COfwr0tEA Brandon Li - makes short travel films with A7 cameras
• https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2hAbftpVjHtFrDOpEM90aA Action Movie Kid - short videos where the (average IQ) videos are CG'd by a professional CG guy
• https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJHA_jMfCvEnv-3kRjTCQXw Binging with Babish - cooking videos shot on A7SII with Atomos ext recorder

and just for sanity, here's potentially the best YT channel out there, which is probably shot on a point-and-shoot... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAL3JXZSzSm8AlZyD3nQdBA Primitive Technology, which is videos of a guy making things without any tools - he literally has a pair of shorts on and walked into the jungle and makes things with what he finds.  Why is it so great? He doesn't talk, there's no music, but they're still hugely engaging.  It's a combination of "what is he doing?" and one of those rainforest tapes people meditate to.  This is a channel where the content is so good I don't give a sh*t what it's shot on.

4 hours ago, Axel said:

Yesterday I saw this, and became so angry that I - almost - downvoted the video, something I'd never done before:

I got as far as him saying he "looked at the spec sheet and....".  Judging a camera from the specs alone is the equivalent of judging a restaurant by googling recipes of the dishes on the restaurants menu.

The fact that this thread is mostly around this has not escaped me! :D

8 hours ago, Kisaha said:

It has SD, CF AND usb-c, which none other has. It records internal raw and various ProRes. I see no issues here, only options, and no external recorders/monitors needed (but I will be really happy to use my Focus on this one). 

Need for an external monitor depends on how you use it.  If camera is on a tripod then you're probably fine, but if you're hand-holding for an ability to quickly get a variety of shots then you might miss a screen that can't articulate vertically.  In terms of hand-holding I can hand-hold my XC10 / Gorillapod 5K setup with my arms fully outstretched at 240mm steady enough so that the IS locks the shot with no movement, so it is possible.

3 hours ago, mercer said:

Why in God’s name would a vlogger use the Pocket 2?

Depends on the vlogger and what you'd call a "vlogger" (as opposed to many other styles of YT film-making).  I see YouTubers with A7SII / Atomos external recorders, C300s, C100s, 1DXII, A7RIII, GH5, GH5s, EVA, etc.  If you definition of 'vlogger' is only people that prattle endlessly into the selfie camera on their phone while walking somewhere to get their nails done, then your definition needs expanding radically.  I'm happy to provide examples of YT channels with high production value if you're interested.

Peter McKinnon leading the way once again by taking YT videos up a notch by taking the selfie stick concept and inventing the Canadian Cinema Stick....

Yes, that's a C200, and yes, he uses it while riding an electric skateboard.

Now the BMPCC4K doesn't seem quite so extreme  

10 hours ago, jonpais said:

redefining family movies!  

Quite significantly it would seem!!

9 hours ago, mercer said:

Even better, I’d take the whole family on a cruise and make a found footage film. Give each member an iPhone and create some kind of silly found footage plot... and then I could write off the vacation as a business expense. 

CONGRATULATIONS!!  You are now the official editor of all of my home videos!!

Just tell me how I get all my footage to you - I think I have about 4Tb so far :D

7 hours ago, HockeyFan12 said:

Locations permits (often) run in the thousands each and require production insurance in the first place, which is another thousand dollars. That makes shooting non-commercial work a lot less fun when it's more expensive for one day on location than to buy the camera you're shooting with!

I don’t think having a script and boards is abnormal, I thought everyone here did! It's a filmmaking community,  after all. I was drawn into the hobby by narrative and by an interest in acting originally, but that's subsided since don't like being on camera much it turns out. The script is my main interest now, even though it's often an excuse to try out new gear. I thought most people here were shooting narrative, but I suppose there are a lot of documentary shooters, too, and corporate video shooters.

I am not sure how many people here shoot with what levels of planning, hmmm, maybe I'll start a poll.  

I shoot with an equipment checklist and no plan.  Obviously there is planning for a day out at a fair, or for a family holiday, or a trip somewhere, but there is nothing beyond that.

I shoot what happens, when it happens, with no intervention.  I try and shoot so that I have enough footage to make a coherent story in post, so I try and concentrate on establishing shots (which I'm quite forgetful at), transition shots (normally us moving between locations), and then the shots of interest.  

4 hours ago, fuzzynormal said:

Looks like I'm 1 and 2.  Although...what's the difference?

about $1000! 

12 hours ago, HockeyFan12 said:

That's a very good point. My interests are YouTube videos and no budget festival-oriented narrative video. Unfortunately I live in a part of the world where it's difficult to find free locations and crew members (by no means impossible, just harder than in other areas), so I'm very guerilla-oriented,.

I also think the above documentary-oriented videos aren't really applicable to what I'm doing, which is scripted and boarded and requires moving at least some lights and art around to articulate certain beats, and bringing in that extra gear can require a permit when just having a camera around wouldn't. And going back to another thread, for documentary-oriented videos, the Amira for instance would be an appropriate camera for a single operator (except to the extent that its size attracts attention), but for narrative videos it wouldn't because it's too big to put on a small slider dolly, not great in low light, etc. And for YouTube it would be overkill anyway! 

I apologize for some of the presumptuous comments I made in the past. When I mentioned that image quality wasn't that important to me, I sort of assumed others were shooting the kind of stuff I was shooting. Likewise, my idea of "storytelling" is specifically narrative, with a narrow three act approach to narrative at that. So perhaps I either need to broaden my horizons but definitely need to stop arguing with others who've already broadened theirs and are focusing on things I haven't yet progressed to needing to focus on in my own work. 

I do wish those more storytelling-oriented communities still existed online! Dvxuser was awesome. But I live in an area that has some amateur communities that exist physically and are good resources. They're probably the best resource for free crew members that I can think of, too.

So I apologize for some of my didactic or presumptuous comments. Probably should look into those communities that are more narrative-oriented and less concerned with image quality, but the internet is easier and I'm a tech nerd at heart because it's easier for me to understand 4:2:2 colorspace than the second act of a script! :/

I'm a little confused..  are you saying that you shoot productions with scripts, boards, and lights, but don't have budget for locations?

If you're doing all that and trying to not get noticed / hassled then wow - good luck to you!

In terms of IQ, it's all relative.  If you're shooting a Hollywood blockbuster but say that image quality doesn't matter that much then you might still be shooting with a F5 instead of a Venice, but if you were a vlogger who said that image quality was their most important aspect they might be shooting with a GH5s instead of an RX10.

It's hard on these forums to know what situations and levels people are at, so pitching your comments to one person can be difficult and if it's to a whole discussion it might be impossible because of the different assumptions from different people (and even if you take the time to fully explain yourself then people just don't read it..)

7 hours ago, Django said:

wait what... tons and tons of content gets shot on ARRIs for YT.. ?! who? where? how?

Lots of YT videos are shot inside a home studio set which is permanently setup.  In this case camera size is almost totally irrelevant.

However, that isn't what this thread is about

7 hours ago, Django said:

above all.. in a "guerrila shooters" thread that states "can't have a setup that looks pro"

In terms of camera size and it looking 'pro' with my XC10 / Rode VMP+ / Gorillapod 5K setup I get jaw-dropping stares and overhear conversations that go for minutes at a time about my setup from members of the general public.  I'd be nervous about buying something like a 1DX and wouldn't even consider a C100 just because of the size and 'pro' appearance.

I've seen quite a few vloggers get stopped by the police or security guards, who insist on saying that photography is not permitted, despite it being a public place.  I just did a bit of googling to find any easy examples, and found one mention of someone that got stopped for taking photographs of the moon!

It seems that you get stopped if your camera looks 'better' or bigger than the average tourist, if you use a tripod, if you have lighting, or if you have any extra people.

7 hours ago, Django said:

Am i missing some kind of sarcasm ? Are yall pockets even that deep? or are we on some E.S. BS here again ?? *confused*

If you have a day job then maybe you do have deep pockets.  I am an office worker who has worked in the head office of many companies and I think that about 1% of office workers own a 5dIII to take pictures of their kids.  There's a cashed up tech savvy middle class out there...

If I was shooting indoor vlogs with the camera on a tripod I would consider an ex cinema camera if it had good IQ and codecs.

[Edit: I didn't realise that an Alexa Mini was *that* expensive.  I don't think office workers would own one of those!!]

21 minutes ago, Tone1k said:

Please don't tell me there are Vloggers out there that would shoot 4k60p RAW! 

Hmmm..  you have a point!!

Personally, I would consider it, but would do AB tests with prores first to see what difference there was.  My primary interest would be to capture in such a way that I could digitally zoom quite significantly into the image if I needed to in post.  This would likely be in 4K60 Prores, which I would be treating kind of like a 2x zoom for 1080 or even a 4x zoom which if IQ was good should be passable for the occasional shot.

Of course, I'm shooting infrequent videos that I hope will form the history of my family, rather than daily/weekly videos with a half-life of only a few days!

5 hours ago, Tone1k said:

On one hand you have a pocket camera that people think is aimed at Vloggers and amatures because of the price and on the other hand BM have given the Pocket 4k RAW, phantom powered XLR, locking Lemo for power, LTC timecode input, CFast slot plus many other features that clearly a vlogger or amature won't really use. 

I'm not sure what media that vloggers would end up using.

Options appear to be:

• SD cards - depending on what data rate is required (4K60 RAW would be huge!) the SD card might be quite costly!
• Cfast cards - might be cheaper than really fast SD cards?
• USB-C HDD - depending on the features and sizes these might also be in the running for cheapest media - would also add some bulk to the rig of course.

I don't think you can assume that SD cards are cheapest option without doing further analysis, and the answer might depend on resolution / frame rates / codec choice.

Vloggers might also own CFast cards already..  I do for my XC10, and any 5DIII or 1DX users will also have them.

hang on, the 5D might be Compact-Flash?  maybe strike the 5D..

6 hours ago, Mokara said:

Higher end cameras have a lot more processing power than an XC10, so that would reflect in any sort of image processing that goes on. Beyond that, the sensor on the XC10 is physically different from that used on Canon's Cxxx cameras, and that physical different WILL have an effect on the image. Unless the cameras are using the same physical sensor and have the same processing capabilities and have the same front end interface chips, they are not going to produce the same image. They may look similar, but they will not be the same.

I never said the image would be the same,I said it would be indistinguishable, which would be easily achievable by someone who knows their stuff in post.  This is assuming that the camera is used for deeper depth-of-field and well lit situations.

I provided a link to the Hurlblog confirming that a GoPro was used in a feature film.  If a GoPro can be made acceptable in a feature film then I think you're crazy to say that two cameras by the same manufacturer shooting in controlled conditions with the same colour profile can't be made to look indistinguishable from each other by a skilled colourist.

6 hours ago, Mokara said:

GoPros are intended to be mounted on small objects to provide a POV of what that object experiences. I would like to see a cyclist or hanglider pilot with a XC10 attached to his helmet.

Just because an XC10 isn't a good size for a head-mount doesn't mean it's not sensible for any other application where size and disposability (ie cost) matter.  Vehicle mounts and many other applications where camera weight and potential damage exist on set.

Do you think that someone shooting on a C300 would choose a to mount a GoPro or C300 to a car instead of an XC10?  

6 hours ago, Mokara said:

Companies like Canon don't go around filing patents because they think they are going to get royalties, they do it specifically to protect their actual products and to make life difficult for anyone who might think about competing.

Are you saying that no-one within Canon has ever considered that this might be a side-benefit?  Your life must be amazing to know what dozens of people are thinking!  I mentioned that it's a part of the picture, not the main goal.

My original point was that there are uses for this camera, as consumers we wouldn't know it was being used, there is evidence that it is being used, and therefore this forum (and the wider internet) is completely useless at predicting or evaluating this camera.  You still haven't shown any evidence or argument refusing my assertion.

6 hours ago, jonpais said:

 

 

Nice.  Almost like a street photography slideshow but where the pictures move.  With the long lenses it has an intimate feel.

6 hours ago, jonpais said:

I'm not sure what it means not to have control over the situation. 

I agree that you always have choices, and in my case I often choose other things over the film-making, and work hard to try and make sure I get the shot anyway.

For me, especially with the kids, I am shooting life as it happens, and because of that I try to not get in the way of what is happening.  I think it's more important for my kids to do activities than to pose so I can film them, or to have those activities interrupted so I can get a better shot etc.

In this sense I'm always following along with what is happening.  It happens where it happens, when it happens, and how it happens.  If someone was facing the wrong way then I didn't get the shot.  I don't direct people - if I ask someone to do something while also following my directions I think I'm ruining the fun for them and I don't want to do that.

In terms of 'getting the shot' I have a lot of freedom in terms of what the critical shots are, but there are always critical moments that you want to make sure you capture.  My kid walking across the stage, shaking hands with the teacher and getting the certificate at their graduation ceremony is a shot I can't miss.  In that example I don't have control of the stage, program, or lighting, I have a limited choice in where I can sit, and the venue has control of if I'm even allowed to film at all.  A recent play at the school had signs up saying that you are allowed to film your own kids but not other peoples - good luck with that when the stage has 20 kids on it running around.  

I can make an edit that is a sequence of nice moving photographs by just using the best shots, but story is the goal, so I have to ensure I get enough of the right moments.

I started this thread because most people on this forum don't operate under the same conditions I do.  I think the film above is a good example of a different conditions - people think they're in the same situation but in reality they aren't.

2 hours ago, Kisaha said:

https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3335_s17.pdf

XC10 Tier 1 HD and Tier 2 UHD with noise at Tier 1, better than most!

If the XC10 was an ILC and had a 10 bit codec would be Tier 1 UHD eligible! 

I read that sheet when I first ordered my XC10 and I was quite disappointed, but I then went on to read many of the other tests on much more expensive cameras, and I found that many high-end cameras didn't have a huge amount more resolution than the XC10.

And then I read the a6300 test and ended up laughing out loud with its many many issues 

I didn't realise they've since tested the Ursa Mini and GH5s, so I've got some light reading ahead of me

For those that haven't read any of these, I highly recommend doing so:

https://tech.ebu.ch/camera_reports_tech3335 and for older cameras https://tech.ebu.ch/camera_reports_legacy

Tests like these are a good way to cut through the internet BS and brand-loyal-myopia.

11 hours ago, John Brawley said:

like this ?

 

http://documents.blackmagicdesign.com/Developer/Camera/20180406-ed2af6/BlackmagicCameraControl.pdf

 

jb

The more I see of BM, the more I like!!

and considering that these days it's more and more about 'ecosystems' rather than discrete products, things like this make me more likely to invest further into the BM system with things like the BMPCC4K.  I understand that their products in the past haven't been completely bug free, but the fact I'm a Resolve user (for end-to-end workflow) makes me think a BM camera would be worthwhile.

5 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

I've been building up a shopping list for when this comes in the post and I noticed something pretty strange here. 

The Samsung T5 drive prices are: 500gb - €173 or 1tb - €385

By my math, you save €40, if you just get 2 500gb drives, and that's going to be much easier to manage. You can then also split the costs over time if you need to. 

Similarly, the WD SSD USBc drives (which are tiny by the way) are priced: 512gb - €169 or 1tb - €355

So you save €15 and get an extra 24gb if you get 2 x 512gb

Does that strike you as strange? I always thought if you get the bigger drive, you'd save some money. 

EDIT:

The 250gb T5 is €109 and 256gb WD is €107, so you do save money if you get the 500gb/512gb versions. I wonder why this 'saving' isn't replicated on even further. 

I've played this game of calculating the $/Gb every time I buy a hard disk and there's normally a sweet spot in the middle of the range somewhere.  Most product cycles start with a new product being marketed to early adopters who are willing to pay a premium for having the latest-and-greatest and this helps pay for the overheads of developing a product, then when they've recouped some of that and the product has some competitors they'll reduce the cost over time.  Then it reaches a point where the next model up has also gotten into the low-cost-high-volume part of the product cycle and so this product can't compete, which in the case of hard drives it means that buying the smallest ones isn't economical, except when they go on run-out sale for end-of-line.

In terms of buying drives for post I'd suggest that buying a larger drive might be more useful down the track - I've got many smaller drives that are now too small to bother with but add up to be reasonable storage, so if you're using them for archiving purposes then there's extra value in having your drive space spread over fewer drives.

If you're buying media for recording I chose two buy two 128Gb CFast cards instead of a single 256Gb card, because if there's a card failure then I will have a spare to keep shooting on and I may lose less footage when it fails.

1 hour ago, jonpais said:

My bad. I thought the iPad app (!) allowed viewing of the image, but I was mistaken.

Wouldn't that be a great thing if they included it.  Many of the web interfaces to remote control cameras are great but the latency means they're not for monitoring.  If we could get a hardware link then how good would that be!

And, just to aim for the moon, if the manufacturer released a set of tools for third party app developers to write their own app interfaces that would be spectacular

ok, back to reality....

39 minutes ago, jonpais said:

I already said I wouldn’t last five minutes. Didn’t you read my post?

I was agreeing with you

I don't think I would last 3 minutes!

Does the brightness required depend on the depth-of-field and focus assists?

I just got back from shooting my kids football game in full Australian 31degC / 88degF sunlight and had no problems because the players were mostly 20-150m away and I was at f5.6 on a 1" sensor, so everything was in focus and all I had to do was keep framing.  If I had shallow depth of field I would have been screwed, and would have needed either a very large/bright monitor or spectacularly performing focus assist features.

When I first joined the forums I thought I was a run-and-gun shooter, but I think now the term Guerrilla film-maker might be a better fit.

I say this because:

• I shoot without official permission (and therefore can't have a setup that looks 'pro')
• I shoot in public where I have basically no control of what happens
• The subjects of my film (friends and family) tolerate my filming, but won't cooperate to the point of wearing mics or anything else like that

This seems to present a different set of challenges to run-and-gun shooters who can mic up people, have control of lighting and 'set', and can have 'pro' looking cameras.

Anyone else shooting in this style?  (I think it's likely to either be hardcore documentary filmmakers, travel film-makers, or vloggers).

Dammit, inserting that image killed my whole post..

Anyway, my points were:

• @HockeyFan12 I think we agree with each other
• "good enough" image quality might be a Red or even a Venice camera depending on your client and distribution medium
• "good enough" will vary from person to person and even job to job
• "focus on story" still stands - just because you've got a Venice and 19-point lighting and Hollywood actors doesn't guarantee you'll make something worth watching (Hollywood provides lots of examples of well shot stories that weren't worth shooting)

And @jonpais - in terms of hand-holding a Red - look at that guys arms!!

7 hours ago, jonpais said:

I've seen some spectacular results from single operator Red users, so I think it depends on your skill level and what you're shooting.

I would imagine that some of the challenges might be able to be planned for and compensated for in advance?

What aspects of using a larger rig do you think are likely to get in the way of a single operator?  I'm curious if it's lenses, outboard sound, the rig, media management etc.  

The reason I ask is that I've normally kept my gear as simple as possible but as time goes on it threatens to get more and more complicated, so knowing what the common first issues are would aid in me understanding at what point my setup is getting too complicated.

4 hours ago, TwoScoops said:

Super impressive beard. I've never been able to go more than 10 days. 

There's a stage when it gets itchy that most people can't get past, but after that it's all fine.  I used to have a goatee and every year for Movember someone would ask me about how long the itchiness goes for

29 minutes ago, Axel said:

The whole philosophy, one could say religion, of the BM cinema camera series is to apply as much internal processing as absolutely necessary and as little as possible. It's a kind of analog-ish purism. No OLPF, only the most basic anti-IR-coating. A "dumb" camera, compared to any modern Sony.

IMHO it's an excellent approach.

Light comes into the camera and hits the sensor.  Everything that happens after that will have both technical and aesthetic impacts - depending on what you're trying to do those impacts may not align with what you are trying to accomplish.  The purist philosophy is the most flexible and requires the most amount of work / skill.

Maybe it's just me, but I find that mostly when computers make decisions for me (as they've been instructed to make by their designers) the decisions are not what I would have chosen.

and a longer focal length will mean less propellers in shots when flying upwind!