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An analysis of the video previously posted, plus some conjecture.

23 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Nikon have had their 24-120mm f4 stabilised zoom on the market for the best part of a decade and their FX cameras also have a switchable DX mode in so if they add a clear zoom function (which I would expect them to as it is a standard function now) then you will be covered and a bit more.

I would struggle to even guesstimate how many Canon 24-105mm f4L IS lenses are out there in the wild after the success of the 5D Mkii so I think they'll have you covered too when their time comes.

Ah, I didn't know about the DX mode, and your optimism about both providing a crop mode and digital zooms is encouraging.  24-105 with the option to go 2.25x more is really a great coverage and F4 on FF is enough DoF separation, for me at least.  Great stuff!

12 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Cinemartin Fran 8K = you thought I was serious, I was joking. 
Z Cam / Kinefinety = you thought I was joking, but I was serious!

 

Full HD to 4K is "only" four times the pixels (thus should "only" take 3yrs for us to catch up with Moores Law), yet the transition from FHD to 4K has taken much much much longer than 3yrs! (heck, we're not even there yet! The transition to 4K is still on going. I mean, in some places they still haven't caught up to FHD!)

And I expect the change over from 4K to 8K will take even longer than it is taking for FHD to 4K because of diminishing returns. (the benefits of SD to HD was fairly obvious, from 4K to 8K? Less so)

I thought you were joking about all three, but the first two are actually competitors.  Or maybe I'm confusing myself.  When I said that you said that I said...... ?

I think FullHD to 4K took 10 years.  I bought one of the first half-reasonably priced FullHD computer monitors 11 years ago, and one of the first half-reasonably priced 4K computer monitors 1 year ago after the first one died.  I agree about diminishing returns for 8K but we're not talking about 8K display, we're talking 8K capture and we already have 6K which is half-way there, so in theory Sony should release an 8K downsizing camera in about 2 years or so!  I agree it won't be 2 years, but it'll be closer to 10 than it will be to 20

20 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Yeah, it’s the same story with any lens in video mode - turning the focus ring for magnification only works for shooting stills. Assigning a fn button for focus assist isn’t the end of the world though.

I’ve got a little Manfrotto Pixi that I really like - I might try using that to help with the shakes. It doesn’t give me more points of contact, but when folded up I can get a nice grip on it. 

The pixi is pretty short, but you might still be able to use it like this?

You'd have to use the articulating screen to tilt up a bit.  It might be a bit cramped but worth a shot and gives you an extra contact point.

14 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Which of the Kinefinity Terra 4K / Z Cam E2 / Cinemartin Fran 8K is the Red Weapon competitor? I feel only the first two of those is in broadly the same class. 
Clearly as soon as I mentioned Cinemartin Fran 8K it is clear I'm joking! ?
Except as we've learned recently on EOSHD it is very very very hard to tell when someone is joking around online. 

I figured the 8K was an 8K camera competitor..  but cinema cameras are a long way from where I play.  The XC10 used to be a cinema camera on Canons website when it launched, but it's been moved since then!!

I figured you were joking with the Kinefinity and Z Cam, but I looked up the prices and they were in the same ballpark as the A7's!

14 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Hmm, what about a Sony RX10 series camera? The RX10 mk II and up.

They're basically the same size as XC10 or A7III.  By the time you put a microphone on the top for directional audio (so my footage of my kid in a go-kart doesn't include the parents sitting behind me gossiping - true story) and a handle / rig of some kind (so the video at 10x zoom, which is 240mm, is minimised while being hand-held in places like tour busses where you can't fit a tripod or monopod - also true story) then the rig is the same size.

I started with a pocket camera and have gradually navigated to my current setup one change at a time to address a real issue or limitation I hit while actually shooting.  

Anyway, let's hope that Nikon make a camera as small as they can while still including the features and ergonomics they designed in, rather than something that makes retired ENG shooters feel like they're back on the job!!

1 minute ago, webrunner5 said:

I am sort of embarrassed to be seen with my Sony A7s on my Tripod and Manfrotto 502 fluid head combo. It looks like a peanut on it.

I know you come from a history of larger cameras and are comfortable with them.

By contrast, I'm embarrassed to be seen with any camera that attracts attention from non-camera-people.  I recently went on a sunset cruise in the tropics and was sitting with my family on the top desk enjoying a cheese platter and the sunset, and grabbing the odd shot with my XC10, Rode VMP+ and Gorillapod.  It was lovely and relaxing, but when the table next to us had a 25 minute conversation about my camera I was a lot less relaxed and it took me away from enjoying the experience.  

In this way it was the classic problem of "don't let the photography get in the way of enjoying your holidays and time with your family" but it wasn't me doing the photography that was the distraction but the size of the equipment and other peoples reactions to it...  If the RX100 or my smartphone could do 4K for 30 minute takes with a 10x zoom lens and log profile with decent IS and directional audio then I'd ditch big camera rigs in a millisecond and never look back.

Photography and videography are creative pursuits.  Creativity is an emotional task, and if technology gets in the way of that, making us angry or frustrated or even disappointed, then we're not going to be as creative, or enjoy ourselves as much.

Buy the camera that supports your creativity the best.

10 minutes ago, Mako Sports said:

Last time I checked Canon said they would sue ML if they tried to release more builds hence why there's been nothing for the 80D, 5Dmk4, and 1DXMK2. Canon still wants you to spend $7K (C200) for good video features.

*sigh*  I don't blame canon for wanting you to spend more money, I blame them for assuming that if I want good video (a nice codec and ILC) I'm willing to carry around a huge camera body.

I know that some people don't think the C200 or C100 are large, but when you look at the A7 series, or their XC10, they're enormous.

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

vs Kinefinity Terra 4K vs Z Cam E2 vs Cinemartin Fran 8K! lol

well, ignoring the Red Weapon competitor you slipped in there, these are really Pocket 2 competitors not A7 or CaNikon competitors.  I think the only reason that the Pocket 2 is an A7 competitor is because you get RAW 4K60 and it's cheaper.  Otherwise they're really for different markets.

For me, the A7III is almost the perfect camera, but my brain thinks "yes, A7III is wonderful but the Pocket 2 has RAW 4K60 and the Pocket1 looks gorgeous in so many shorts that the colour science must be really easy to work with and I know the A7III can do similar DR but it will require work to learn to grade it, and I know that I normally hand-hold but 4K60 RAW!!  Maybe I can learn to shoot films completely differently?  I can learn to use tripods, and vloggers seem to use their gorilla pods as tripods and do static shots all the time.  Of course the Sony 24-105 with crop and digital zoom is the equivalent of a m43 12-120 F2 lens which doesn't exist or would cost the earth so I'd have to get primes and then I'd have to shoot much slower and make quite different films, but fark me 4k60 RAW!!  Maybe I can become a completely different person because of this camera???"

It's kind of like at school when you'd see a gorgeous girl who liked football players and you'd think "maybe if I changed my entire personality I'd have a shot??" ???

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I hope those prices @Django quoted from Nikon Rumors includes a lens, or they are dead in the water to start with.

I believe they included a 24-70 F4?

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Not going to happen in the next five years, but who knows in twenty or forty years time?? 

Which is what I feel Nikon needs to be prepared for when thinking about and designing their new mirrorless mount. (just look at how long the current Nikon F mount has lasted!)

Well, Moores law states that computer power doubles every 18 months or so.  If we assume this is true then it means that it will take 3 years to go from 4K to 8K processing.  Even if thermal solutions and marketing and investment don't keep pace, it will still be within 5-10.  Think about how long it took to go from SD to HD to FullHD and to 4K.  SD to HD was 2.25x pixels, HD to FullHD was 2.25x pixels, FullHD to 4K was 4x pixels.

Plus we already have a 6K to 4K downsample in a "base model camera".

History says that progress is slower than we'd like, but steady and faster than we predict.

1 hour ago, Drew Allegre said:

I think it has a ways to go before I'd feel comfortable even in a light drizzle, tbh.

 

I moved to the a7III now instead of waiting for Canon/Nikon mirrorless, because I'm moving away from shooting paid work and more to personal stuff.  I figure by moving now, I'm maximizing the value on some of my higher ticket DSLR items (keeping plenty too).  In the a7III, I'm also getting a pretty incredible "use it right now" tool that fits the mix of shooting that I'm doing these days.  While I do long for 10 bit or raw, the 8 bit workflow and quality are admittedly sufficient for filming my kid trawling around on his balance bike.

I'm personally hoping that Canon will (if not a home run) get an extra base hit with their FF mirrorless.  I love Canon, and I loved the 5D3 and ML.  I just wish they'd put a "sensible" 4k codec in whatever their FF mirrorless camera ends up being.

Holy wow!  That video spiked my blood pressure!!  I'm probably a little bit too careful with cameras (although I did take my iPhone8 swimming at the beach deliberately, so there's that).

Yeah, the A7III is just about perfect for non-commercial uses, even if you're a real connoisseur.

I am hoping Canon hits a home run with their FF too, but I'm not holding my breath.  The issue with their codecs is the processing, and unless they put a video DIGIC processor in there its unlikely we'll get a sensible codec.  Personally, I'm secretly hoping they put a stills DIGIC and a video DIGIC in there.  They have dual processors in their high end cameras so it's possible, and they've put a thermal solution in the XC10 which has a very small body so fans don't mean huge size, however fans kill weather sealing and the first FF ML offering may be aimed at their core customers instead of their evaporating share of the (tiny) DSLR video market.

1 hour ago, Robert Collins said:

Purely speculating. But I think it is very likely that Canon will put FF in its existing EF-M for APSC. The throat diameter of EF-M is 47mm which is wider than Sony E mount. This would also give an (ongoing) upgrade path from APSC to FF for mirrorless buyers.

If they do go EF-M then lets hope they get the naming right so it's clear which EF-M lenses are FF and which are APSC - unlike Sony which is a fricking maze to try and understand with two lens mounts and two sensor sizes but lenses in all 4 combinations!

2 hours ago, jonpais said:

First disappointment - in video mode it is not possible to activate focus magnification with the focus collar on the lens.

Something that might be changed in a firmware update perhaps?  Is this a function available with other lenses?  It would be strange if Sony didn't enable all the available features for use with their own lenses.

2 hours ago, jonpais said:

Also, IBIS is not nearly as effective as the Panasonic, which matters if you’ve got tremors as much as I do.

I've heard people say that.  I'm less concerned with it because I've heard the GH5 is spectacular, and I think the combination of A7III and 24-105 F4 has double IS which should be better than the IS I'm used to from my XC10 and Canon 18-55 and 55-250 lenses.

I also use the Gorillapod 5K (the biggest bendy tripod available) as a stabiliser, sometimes it just hangs down under the camera as a counterweight, sometimes I prop the camera up on it like a monopod, and other times I swing the legs horizontally and put them against my chest like a rifle / shoulder mount.  I don't know what your shooting rig and style is like but maybe adding something like this might help?

2 hours ago, jonpais said:

As I stated in my video, unlike shooting HLG with the GH5,  you’ve really got to protect the highlights when shooting Cine2. They are unrecoverable if overexposed even a tiny bit. I still have to try out Slog2.

I don't know what software you're using, but I think of it like if you're willing to grade the footage then it's not much more work to put a converter on the footage to go from log to something else before working on the footage.  This means you can shoot in log and be a bit safer from exposure errors.

My current approach with my XC10 is to shoot in C-Log, and then in Resolve:

• Have the first node correcting any exposure or WB issues
• Then the next to convert from C-Log to Rec709
• Then grade as you would normally

I've found that when shooting in log there is much more latitude to change exposure and WB in post (with that first node) than if you're shooting a more REC709 style profile and trying to correct that in post.

If I end up with the A7III I would experiment with the above workflow and trial either Slog2 or Slog3.  I've heard that Slog2 is harder to grade, but if you have a decent converter then that difference doesn't really apply.  IIRC Slog3 has greater dynamic range than Slog2 so I would trial that and see how it goes.  The thing to watch for in Slog3 would be if there is enough contrast in skin tones so that when you stretch things back out again with the converter they don't look blotchy or strange.

I can't recall if the A7III allows you to put a LUT on the screen / viewfinder while shooting log?  If not, then another downside of shooting log is that it's harder to see the monitor as it's such a flat profile.

@DBounce @Drew Allegre @Lenscamera @keessie65 - let's all settle back and let the manufacturers bid for our money!!  A7III vs Pocket 2 vs A7SIII vs Nikon FF ML vs Canon FF ML!!

Personally I am also 80% of the way to just buying the A7III right now, so they will have to make something really special to beat it for me.  
I think the Pocket 2 is ruled out for me because of the crop factor and lack of stabilisation.  On the A7III the 24-105 F4 is double stabilised and when combined with the crop mode and clear image zoom there would need to be a  m43 lens that was 12-120mm F2 zoom to keep the zoom range and DoF.  I think the Canon and Nikon aren't likely to be able to match the zoom range either, although I'd be happily proven wrong!
The A7SIII will likely be better but will be much more expensive, which combined with the premium prices for Sony lenses rules it out.

10 hours ago, Drew Allegre said:

I'm excited to see what Nikon has to offer.  I've already switched from a 5DIII to an a7III, at least partly because I wanted to divest some DSLR gear before these new Nikon and Canon systems hit.  Imagine...a full featured mirrorless camera with proper weather sealing!

The A7III doesn't have proper weather sealing?

The website says:

"Major buttons and dials are sealed. Sealing is provided throughout the body to minimise entry of dust and moisture" and "Not guaranteed to be 100% dust and moisture proof."

I'm new to weather sealing, so what does this really mean?  Don't shoot in the rain?  Don't shoot in heavy rain?  Be careful of sprinklers?

9 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Medium format sensor prices will fall drastically in the decades to come. 

And their new mount should be future proofed enough to last them decades. 

So I hope they can squeeze in a medium format sensor? Even if just a crop one like the ones currently 

I know we all tend to get our hopes up and then have manufacturers disappoint us, but one thing that would be incredible from a medium format sensor is full-sensor readout with no binning for 4K video.  The Sonys already downsample from 6K to 4K, but debayered 6K isn't full-res 4K video so if anyone steps up with 8K downsampling that would be spectacular!

Or, probably more likely, it should give the ability to do a more significant digital punch-in, which would be awesome as well.

9 hours ago, SR said:

Have you run into any problems using RAID 5 so far, any disk failures?

I'm not on RAID yet - once I outgrow my current HDD then I'll need to go there.  Just a single drive at the moment.

4 hours ago, no_connection said:

I don't think many uses RAID5 any more, at least not in server. You end up always using two parity disks or more, so RAID6

RAID 5 means that if you have one drive fail then you're ok, but if two drives fail you lose your data.  RAID 6 means that you need to have three drives fail to lose your data.

In server environments I can understand that, but for video?

Considering that if you have a drive failure then you just order a replacement drive and a few hours / days later then you're back to safety again, I don't see that as being too risky for data that you've already got a backup of somewhere else.  You could even back up the array when the first drive fails as an extra layer of protection.  

Drives are quite reliable these days - every computer without RAID is only a single failure away from disaster but the people aren't running around screaming in panic!

Thanks @Charlie it's always interesting to see how other people approach a project!

I also thought your tutorial was good - well paced with the right level of information provided..  I'm definitely interested in more.  I'm especially interested in how you record things when you're out shooting

@jonpais - thanks!  Lovely images.

Can you share what picture profile and any important settings you used?  Those interested in emulating that look may find it useful

Thanks @John Brawley that makes sense, and the data logistics would be significant.  However, I thought someone had mentioned that Prores was preferred even in situations where the data rates were similar?  I probably should have included it in my original question

Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly, or perhaps that statement might have been in a different context?

On 7/21/2018 at 9:32 PM, webrunner5 said:

Well I think the object of a travel video is to.. travel, to show movement, even if it is somewhat erratic. Now I a not into the 8mm jerky as heck stuff, but I don't think perfection is the goal either.

I think more of a Monopod look than a tripod look. Sure Gimbals are big now, but I don't  like them overdone either. They have their place, but not using it for the whole time.

I agree with you about the 8mm jerky look not being desirable, and considering that I'd rather keep a small setup that doesn't attract attention that's why I've opted for image stabilisation.  That shake was probably the one thing that I disliked about the BMPCC films I watched.

What is the monopod look?  What kind of camera movement does it have?  Is it a gentle but smooth movement perhaps?

1 minute ago, Anaconda_ said:

I wonder how that's going to change once ProRes RAW is more available and has been tested a bit more. From my understanding, the file sizes aren't much different to normal ProRes options, and the workflow should be much easier that working with CinemaDNGs once more editing software is updated to work with it. I guess it'll be like working with "hyper-LOG". ?

I'm curious to understand a bit more about how RAW differs to Prores in post.

To preface this, I'm a Resolve user and I don't know much about PP or FCPX, so maybe there are larger differences there?

In terms of Resolve, when you shoot DNG sequences:

• the sequence appears in the media browser and other windows as one item, the same as a clip, and behaves like one throughout
• the RAW panel is available (which isn't for other file formats obviously) but I think the defaults are just to defer to the camera metadata, so you don't have to change anything here if you don't need / want to (this is the part I'm less familiar with so maybe there are things you need to do here?)
• everything else behaves the same way a clip would

Assuming the above is correct and I'm not missing something, where is the extra difficulty?

Is it in extra processing power required to debayer the files perhaps?  Or does PP / FCPX not handle image sequences as clips?

People online talk about image sequences from time lapses as an extra bother because you have 'lots of files' or 'you have an extra step to combine them' but in Resolve that's completely automated.

22 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

31 - 23 = 8 seconds

With some more maths about what we know of the speed of light.... we can calculate the body size of this new Nikon camera!

To save everyone else the math, it takes light 8 seconds to travel 2.3 million kms.

I guess that's written the camera off for me - there's no way I can hand-hold something that size, even if it does have IBIS!

4 hours ago, SR said:

So I finally understood what RAID was thanks to this stupidly easy-to-understand video. My photography work (my current line) has gotten to a point where each projects (raw, PSDs) easily reaches 100GB to 500GB. Most of my video projects till now have done using the NX1 and GH5. And I am working on a few short scripts that I'll be shooting with the preordered BMPCC4K (first time working on raw or prores). With those in mind, I was trying to figure out a way to move and work on data effortlessly. So this video was tremendously helpful in understanding RAID, which has always intimidated me, perhaps because the information I found till date were so fragmented. 

I was thinking of getting the Synology 8 bay NAS DiskStation DS1817+ (Quad-core 8-bay NAS with AES-NI support, with over 1,179 MB/s reading and 542 MB/s writing performance), but I'm not sure what speed I'd need to handle 4k and prores. 

Also, I was curious on what RAID solutions each of you are using and how the experience has been.

Remember that RAID isn't a backup solution.  Yes, it protects your data if one of the drives stops working, but if your files get corrupted / you delete something important by accident / you get a virus / etc then it's still your only copy of the data.  The backup copy should not be connected to the computer (if it is then it can also be corrupted by viruses or software malfunctions) and ideally it would be somewhere protected so if you get robbed or if there is a fire then you still have the data.

The solution I'm working towards is having a RAID 5 system for the 'live' version of my data and archiving onto single hard disk drives as backup.
I just bought a 12TB drive and that is my 'live' drive and I have a couple of 4TB drives as backups (ie, I backup projects by date and when the first drive is full I then backup to the second).
My MBP isn't powerful enough to edit my 4K source footage so I make 720p proxy files and edit with these from the SSD in my computer so the speed of the drive with my 4K footage on it isn't a big deal for me at the moment.

In terms of your data rates for the Pocket 2, BM lists these:

Quote

4096 x 2160
CinemaDNG RAW - 272 MB/s
CinemaDNG RAW 3:1 - 129 MB/s
CinemaDNG RAW 4:1 - 97 MB/s
Apple ProRes 422 HQ - 117.88 MB/s
Apple ProRes 422 - 78.63 MB/s
Apple ProRes 422 LT - 54.63 MB/s
Apple ProRes Proxy - 24.25 MB/s

3840 x 2160
CinemaDNG RAW - 255 MB/s
CinemaDNG RAW 3:1 - 122 MB/s
CinemaDNG RAW 4:1 - 92 MB/s
Apple ProRes 422 HQ - 110 MB/s
Apple ProRes 422 - 73.6 MB/s
Apple ProRes 422 LT - 51 MB/s
Apple ProRes Proxy - 22.4 MB/s

1920 x 1080
CinemaDNG RAW - 66 MB/s
CinemaDNG RAW 3:1 - 32 MB/s
CinemaDNG RAW 4:1 - 24 MB/s
Apple ProRes 422 HQ - 27.5 MB/s
Apple ProRes 422 - 18.4 MB/s
Apple ProRes 422 LT - 12.75 MB/s
Apple ProRes Proxy - 5.6 MB/s
Storage rates based on 30 frames per second.

The highest there is for 4K60P which would be 272 x 2 = 544MB/s which the specs you quoted easily matched.

It's a bit of a separate topic but I think that lots of people are going to get the Pocket 2, and after testing the various codecs (and seeing the file sizes!!) will realise that a lower quality codec is absolutely fine for what they're doing.  To put it in context, YouTube 4K is something like 35Mbps, which is a hell of a lot less than the 2176Mbps of the Pocket 2.  Obviously you want to record at a higher bitrate than YT streams at, but I'm not sure that you need 62x the bitrate!!

@Aussie Ash I thought you'd chosen a bad frame to screenshot, but no!

Let the speculation commence!!

3 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

Fair enough, I was just going by the product details. Seems strange to under estimate the speed so much haha. 

Yeah, I saw that and wondered if it was a different model, which is why I mentioned the model number on mine.

On looking a bit further the CFX650 seems to be a better model with the performance I got in my tests: https://www.transcend-info.com/Products/No-672

Something to look out for when purchasing I guess!

2 hours ago, Savannah Miller said:

There's maximum speed then there's minimum speed.  Not all cards can sustain the max speed for extended recording.  SD cards are particularly bad at this, that's why V60 and V90 standards exist.

If there are any tests you'd like me to perform just ask.

47 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Raw just doesn't happen out there as often as many forum goers think. 

Just people recording their kids and pets then...  I guess if you already own some m43 lenses then $1300 is worth it to have 4K 60P in RAW of Mr Mittens!!!

4 hours ago, anonim said:

I'd say No3 in 95% - Socialising, including soft psychotherapy... it include everything else as excuse.

I think it depends on which threads you look at, and which conversations you choose to read

1 hour ago, Robert Collins said:

Are you doing something like this?

 

That function is really handy..  My XC10 has a similar function, which I believe is a standard function from the Canon cinema line.  

Plus, that guys intro is really funny ???

15 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

Don't buy this card. The write speed is only 160mb/s. These are the data rates specified in the Tech Specs for this camera on the BMD  website. These are also based in 30fps recordings, so basically double it for 60p.

I own two of the Transcend 128GB CFast 2.0 cards.  I don't know if they're a different model to the link posted, but mine both say CFX650.

Anyway, card #1:

Card #2:

Not quite enough for 4K60 at RAW uncompressed, but can do 4K30 RAW and can do 4K60 RAW 3:1 compression.

IIRC someone said that most commercial productions (TV I think) find shooting Prores sufficient quality and don't need RAW.  Especially if you're shooting 4K for a 1080 output.

1 hour ago, jonpais said:

Well it’s easy for him to say, since he’s shooting with an Alexa and Angenieux lenses, but I’ve just got a crappy old mirrorless. ?

I'd be happy with your crappy old mirrorless...  if your GH5 or A7III start cluttering up your place I'll let you store them at mine!!  

Charlies post got me thinking about this board and who is on here.  

I think it tends to be a place for a few situations:

• Contemplating upgrades
• Keeping up with technology
• Socialising

I don't see a problem with any of these, as even for people who shoot all the time there are still these situations

I don't think there should be less talk about gear, but I'd love if there was more talk about the artistic aspects of film-making as well.  After all, once you buy a camera and learn the exposure triangle the rest is really working out what to point it at! ?