mercer

1 hour ago, TomTheDP said:

Yeah shooting outside at least you can't go wrong protecting your highlights unless maybe you are shooting a subject with the sun behind them but no camera will really handle that perfectly.

Without a doubt. I would assume that as long as you can see a little detail in the clouds, you should be good to go.

9 hours ago, Llaasseerr said:

Yes, agreed - just protect the highlights and shoot good stuff. Do the work figuring out where the sensor clips, and expose accordingly even if you can't see that while monitoring. But we have been spoiled by being able to monitor a LUT-ted log image so we can see while shooting exactly what we will see in Resolve, if the colour pipeline is transparent. I have that with the Digital Bolex and fundamentally it's the same in that it just shoots raw DNGs.

As for imperfect scenarios, I do find that there are so many stressful factors when shooting a creative low budget project with some friends that having to babysit the camera is a real killer to the spontaneity, rather than just being able to confidently know what you're getting.

I think what possibly interests me is shooting with an ND and using the exposure compensation to see if that would allow capturing the highlights but at least viewing for the middle. Would need to try it out. I personally don't like the whole ETTR approach because your shots are all over the place and IMO you then really need to shoot a grey card to get back to a baseline exposure, otherwise you're just eyeballing it.

To your larger point, this camera really does seem like something that can just spark some joy and spontaneity because it's so small to be carried around in your pocket and whip out and do some manual focus raw recording, with some heavy hitting metrics in comparison to a Red or a Sony Venice. I get that. I do really feel though that Sigma would not have had to do too much work to make it more objectively usable at image capture, and after its announcement I was interested to give feedback prior to the release, but I didn't know how to get my thoughts up the chain to the relevant people. Then when it was released, they seemed to have made all the classic mistakes.

Yup, more than likely, the meter inconsistency is consistent, so with ND, VND and/or exposure compensation, it should be fairly straightforward to get consistent results. I agree that ETTR isn't optimal, but as you know, a 12bit raw image should give you a lot of leeway in Resolve's Raw Panel.

To add to your greater point... I think I would use the FP as simple as possible... I'd probably monitor it with the Monochrome profile, use the in camera, center weighted meter, run some tests and adjust accordingly. I'd also use a wide angle lens that vignettes a little to take the edge off the highlights, or add a slight vignette in post to soften the highlights when needed.

With my 5D3, I can't even review clips, so the FP seems like a luxury to me in a lot of ways.

Btw, the Digital Bolex is one of my dream cameras. It must be great to have one. 

1 hour ago, Llaasseerr said:

You're right, it shouldn't be this difficult, but Sigma have not published any accurate information about the camera's colour science and I don't think they even really know about the camera's spectral characteristics or how to communicate a modern colour science pipeline to a DP even though they claim it's aimed at professional DPs who can use the camera properly since they know what they're doing.

It depends on how accurate you want to be and how predictable you want your workflow to be without just twiddling knobs in Resolve on a per-shot basis until it looks good.

I'm happy with the baseline accuracy I get with DNG tags being interpreted in as ACES project in Resolve. At least that's why I started posting in this thread, was to tell other people that it was a valid starting point that's not gaslighting you.

But then I started being told by other users about the weird inconsitent behaviour with ISO and variance as to how it behaves whether capturing internally or with a Ninja V. Then the fact the false colors don't update in some cases between ISO 100-800, or the fact that the DNGs look different based on whether the colour profile is set to ON or OFF. Also the complete lack of ability to monitor the highlights, I guess unless you underexpose the image with an ND and add a LUT n an external monitor to bring the exposure back up to where it will be in post.

Having said all that, it's still a great, intriguing camera. I would really like it if this and the FX3 were smushed together with an extra stop of dynamic range.

 

 

No matter how you look at it, the FP is barely a prosumer camera. It apparently has its quirks, but it seems to me that as long as you protect your highlights, or adjust exposure of the in-camera meter reading with whatever the inconsistency is, then you should be able to get a consistent exposure... if it's reading a stop under then adjust accordingly.

As I said previously, I don't know a lot about ACES and have found your contribution to the discussion very interesting.

I wasn't really speaking of anybody specifically. Since the FP was released, there has been a steady flow of discussions that make it seem like the camera is almost unusable. And I have seen more than enough samples from the FP that screams otherwise and most of the creators from those videos rarely discuss these issues. So it seems that some of the complaints are either overblown or created from theory rather than practicality. I assume we have all shot in imperfect scenarios and we just have to make it work.

But I'm usually the minority around here. I see the FP as what it is... the smallest FF raw video camera and that's how I would use it... a handgrip, a lens and a camera strap. Other than the added size due to the SSD, I feel like I should be able to slip it into a pocket in between shots. But I shoot DIY, run and gun narratives, so YMMV.

2 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

Just trying to find the ideal color workflow. I am sure for the majority of people this is pointless discussion.

I didn't mean any disrespect to you or anyone specifically. I've been very interested in the FP since it was released. It seems like a natural progression for me, but it also is too similar. But it also seems like the true successor to the OG Pocket.

With that said, the FP is basically a camera with 12 stops of DR and 2 native ISOs. As long as you protect the highlights, the rest can be tweaked in post.

As far as color... there seems to be a dozen different ways to get to a similar point. You can use the Camera Raw Panel in Rec709 and adjust your exposure, WB and saturation. You can process the clips as BM Film, then use LUTS or grade from hand, or you can do a CS/ACES Transform and process as LogC. Anything more than those 3 are probably more complicated than necessary for a $1500 camera.

I process my footage through Resolve as BM Film or sometimes as a LogC CST... depending on the footage... then export as ProRes 4444 for a final color and edit in FCPX. I've also found that processing the footage as BM Film and then use the Ursa 4.6K to Rec709 LUT really opens up the waveform and utilizes most of the available DR of the image. At that point you can adjust your skintones where you want them to be in the Raw Panel... etc. An aggressive highlight curve can usually add some depth to your highlights  

Anyway, just my two cents.

I may be completely wrong here, but it seems like a lot of people are overthinking the workflow of this camera... from exposure to color... I don't know if it should be this problematic. Perhaps I am so used to workarounds with my 5D3 and ML Raw, so I don't understand the issues. But it shouldn't be this difficult. 

1 hour ago, Llaasseerr said:

Forgot to mention that you don't want an input transform applied in the color management tab either.

Thanks I'll have to do more research into using ACES. I'd like to test it with my ML Raw files. 

1 hour ago, Llaasseerr said:

Right. The issue is being unable to see clipping like you describe while monitoring, with the default profiles on the camera. It would be a good reason to consider underexposing at a fixed level with an ND, and having the ability to toggle a LUT on and off that included an exposure boost. Again, this is where a published Sigma log curve would be useful - for monitoring.

As for working with the image, just to be clear I'm not advocating working in Rec709. Personally I would work in either linear ACES or then convert the linear image to Arri logC. the DNG IDT is the most accurate DNG raw import available in Resolve since it's generated on the fly.

In the case of transforming to LogC, the ACES inverse Alexa IDT will do a pretty accurate transform from the linear image to Alexa. Arri's log color space is well documented and not confusing compared to BMD. Basically, I could round trip the image from LogC back to linear ACES and it would match the original imported DNG (via the ACES IDT), so then I know the image integrity has been maintained. My assumptions are based on sound DNG metadata though, as this is what Resolve relies on for accurate ACES input transform.

Interesting. Where do I find the CDNG IDT in Resolve?

1 hour ago, hyalinejim said:

Would you have any insight on whether the 1080 modes are line skipped, aliased and mushy like some of the S series cameras, or clean and nice like the GH5? I still haven't been able to find this info anywhere online. I guess there is no love for HD in 2022 😪

I wish I knew when the 1080p/4K ProRes is coming? I'm interested in the GH6, but ONLY for the ProRes. I'm getting a new computer soon, so the 6K would be okay, but it's overkill for my needs.

1 hour ago, hyalinejim said:

I think it's 800 but I don't know if the difference in highlight detail and/or shadow noise will be quite as noticeable in a Rec709 profile compared to log.

I've always been a fan of CineLikeD. It felt like a designed version of ProLost Flat as opposed to just optimal settings to get a flattish profile.

I have a BMMCC as a pseudo second camera (which I never really use) for its ProRes capabilities (FCPX user) so I wondered if it would be worth selling the micro to put that money toward a GH6...

I'm still really happy with my 5D3, so I probably won't. Haha.

Anyway, just curious. Thanks.

This was mentioned earlier, but I forget the actual numbers... what are the ISOs for DR Boost in CineLikeD?

Also, is the ProRes a variable bitrate? And if so, will the picture profile affect the bitrate? Would vLog have less bitrate, because it's flatter, than a Rec709 profile like CineLikeD... or is variable bitrate affected more by motion?

On 4/21/2022 at 6:12 AM, PannySVHS said:

Tasty.:) I remember Matthias Burling loved his EF 35mm F2 dearly. Looking intense! But what is with the other awesome talent? I know it´s is a good thing to work with different talent. Still, how could you? 🙂 @mercer

How is the manual focus, hard stops at least, sufficient long focus throw. If so, a must buy it seems for stabiholics.

I bought a FD 35mm f2 silverring a couple weeks ago, the version without the radioactive elements though, but still with that unpractical but very pretty silver ring.:)  I love the rendering a huge deal when I used it on my Bmmcc with a 0.71 focal reducer giving it standard mft sensor size crop. Will have to give it a ride with my S1 soon.

Still cracking me up big time! 🙂 You still have not told us how many great deals you made with best of concious:)

Thanks Panny. The 35mm is a great lens and it's decently priced. Of course, I think Canon recently discontinued it, so the used ones seemed to have went up in price a bit, but you can sometimes find a refurbished one on the Canon site for a reasonable price and a warranty. Canon USM lenses are a mixture of mechanical and electrical, so the focus ring will keep spinning around externally, but if you pay attention to your focus, you can feel the hard stop internally. So... it kinda has hard stops.

My other actor is still around... I think he was holding a reflector in one of those shots and he's in the Grim Reaper costume in the other.

If you're dying to see some shots of him...

Here he is in a test I was doing with the older Sigma 50mm 1.4... such a great lens... with one of the worse focus rings I've ever used...

I shot a short film yesterday and used the Canon 35mm f/2 for a few shots. What a great utility prime with IS. Here are a few shots with a quick LUT thrown on. The film may end up being in B&W.

Also, this idea seems personal, so I wouldn't recommend taking too many ideas from others this early on. Only you know the story you want to tell.

The beginning and the ending are the two most important parts of any screenplay. They feed off one another. You should know your ending before you even start writing page one.

Read The Nutshell Technique. It's a simple structure that will keep Heath, your theme and your plot coexisting throughout the story.

22 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Don't think its necessarily the cameras myself.

Its mainly the move away from slowing down, seeing the composition rather than just the opportunity and using the lost art of putting it on a tripod.

Too much running, too much gunning and not enough cunning these days.

On some level, you're probably right. Slowing down and finding the shot based on what you want to communicate will yield better results. Even in this video, Andrew's use of Dutch Angles superimposes a different feel of the city. It's like every puddle has a story to tell.

With that, I still feel like there is something missing from these newer cameras. With all of their advancements in color depth and resolution, the images look more brittle and similar. Obviously, there are exceptions...  and maybe I'm just being nostalgic.

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

Backstory here for the lovely 10 year old Tokyo footage.

https://www.eoshd.com/news/tokyo-test-footage-attempting-a-ridley-scott-with-the-hacked-gh2-and-olympus-12mm-f2/

 

Thanks for posting this. @Andrew Reid I really enjoy your older work. Before you sell off the site, it could be fun to see you revisit some of these classic cameras.

For a site based on gear and tech and how they merge to create a craftsman's tool, one intangible variable, often overlooked is mojo and it oozes from some of these older cameras. I don't know what has changed over the past 10 years, but these newer cameras seem to lack it.

On a side note, I came to your site for your reviews and stayed due to these videos that accompanied them.

Thanks and good luck with your future endeavors. 

As much as I agree with the statement that if it looks good, it is good, I must question the point of shooting with an S1H if you're not using vLog?

You're probably losing at least a stop of dynamic range. So it's very possible you're getting around 10.5 stops.

You may as well shoot with a Canon or Sony and get excellent AF.

Why make life difficult when there's money involved.

The bride couldn't care less about the cool waveform feature.

42 minutes ago, PPNS said:

what if they'd shot it at like f/5.6 though, imagine how much better it would've looked. maybe they might have even missed focus less?

 

full frame video and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race

Yeah, I like f/2.8-f/4 on FF. I'll shoot f/2 if there isn't a lot of movement to get some separation.

Weirdly, I'm really interested to see how the 3K raw S16 crop mode looks.

2 hours ago, Emanuel said:

In fact, I praise Canon's efforts to give us this marvelous 2022 device, I'm sorry guys but I don't buy the customary negativism towards them this time ; ) Without mention the 5D series since the legendary and really re(D)volutionary Mark II and the M... let alone coupled to ML ;- )

Yeah if I could justify this kind of purchase, or had any understanding of acquiring videography jobs, I would buy one in a heartbeat.

Good find @Emanuel that Augusto short film looks gorgeous. 

11 minutes ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

What picture profile are you shooting in on the ZV E10???

I have an a6500 and shooting in S-LOG2 with pretty much any color gamut is an act of futility.

Shoot sLog3 in Monochrome, it's pretty amazing. 

7 hours ago, jgharding said:

yeah i guess it's all preference. I now have an S1H and ZVE10 and you can match em nearly perfectly. Trouble with comparisons is everyone has a different post pipeline.

The default Pana LUT is a bit rubbish, everything goes pink.

Sorry, I probably should have been clearer with my  comment. My point was that as much as I like the output from the S1H, it seems that the FX3/a7siii are highly capable of creating amazing images, especially with that Cinetone profile, so if you really like the AF, I wouldn't necessarily say that the S1H has a highly superior image. 

On 3/11/2022 at 7:23 AM, jgharding said:

S1H, I tried S1 but sent i back after moire issues in testing, the S1H has an OLPF.

The crop factor isn't too much of an issue. Red has it, a few other cameras do. It's only cropping to Super 35 which is still bigger than a GH5 without a speed booster.

That said I recently bought a Sony B-cam for the autofocus which is near flawless and way better than any real person I've ever seen pull.

When it comes to upgrade time I'm going to switch to Sony if Panasonic AF hasn't improved, that's despite the image quality being better on the S1H. In the end I'd rather the easier more practical life.

The A7S3 has a fair few downsides compared to S1H. But that AF makes me jealous.

I've been a big fan of the S1H since it's release (I've never used one) but in those Slashcam comparison frames @kye posted on the GH6 thread, the S1H was my least favorite, by a lot, and I thought the FX3 was in the top 3 after the Komodo and Canoj R3.

Obviously, it isn't a "scientific" comparison, but it's a comparison nonetheless. I assume the FX3 footage was in the Cinetone profile and I liked the look a lot.

@Jimmy G I understand your desire for raw files, once I started shooting raw on my 5Diii, 5 years ago, I was hooked and every new camera release since, although tempting with their new features, always seemed lacking. 14bit Raw is very addictive.

Since this is a thread on the GH6, I won't waste too much space pushing other cameras, especially since the ProRes HQ files should be pretty juicy, but since you also mentioned macro shooting, I figured I'd mention it... have you seen this 5Diii macro video posted on the Footage forum by Zero Landscape?

Since you mentioned owning a 5D at some point, I figured it was worth mentioning.

On another note, since you're already invested in the L-mount, why not be on the lookout for a used Sigma FP for some uncompressed internal 12bit 1080p raw, or 4K raw with a small and unobtrusive SSD?

Anyway, sorry for the detour...

GH6. 

16 minutes ago, Jimmy G said:

But, to my "violet" problem (and akin)...that I can reproduce an output that closely resembles (dare I say, matches?!) an actual sample of that same flower in hand I'll feel that I've come a long ways towards a sense of (what I refer to as, ahem) color accuracy.

If you're looking for color accuracy, you'd probably be better off looking at a Sony camera and use one of their picture profiles. Their neutral profile always seemed pretty accurate and allowed a little wiggle room to adjust contrast and saturation to taste.

Or maybe grab a camcorder. I feel a lot of people would be better off with a camcorder for video than mucking around with Log profiles in photo cameras.