mercer

57 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

I really dislike the colour grade in that video - low-contrast and de-saturated with (to me) a grey-green cast. It sucks all the life out of the event it's recording... How do you judge the colour capability of the camera itself from that?

(I know the heritage railway and the location it was filmed at quite well).

Not my photo and a different location, but this is what the 'Mayflower' locomotive looked like in reality):

( From emdjt42 on Flickr )

🤷‍♂️ 

It looks great to me. I'm not looking for an image that looks exactly like reality. It's definitely desaturated, but I don't agree that it's low contrast.

No offense to the photographer of that shot, but that looks like it could have been shot with any standard profile from a camcorder in auto mode.

As far as... how can I judge the image... look at the skin tones... the weight of the image. It looks and feels like a real movie.

2 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

picked c70 every time they had the person shown. I guess I like those tones. Does anyone agree?

Both of those cameras are great, you should get one. What are you shooting with now?

9 minutes ago, SRV1981 said:

I remember this ! it was posted here years ago! I remember trying ML and was blown away how good it looked but how hard it was to use. I think the fx3/r5c can give those looks now. 

I'm sure I posted it back then too. ML Raw is easy on the 5D3 due to dual card slots and its stability.

I'm sure the FX3 and R5C could get close... minus the 14bit color... but they're $3500 cameras and I already own the 5D3. 

And I'd be remiss if I didn't post this video from a British filmmaker named Paul Cook. It was the video that made me buy my 5D3 and install ML Raw on it and never look back. After 7 years, I'm still chasing what he was able to capture in an afternoon...

9 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

I agree. His Sony work does not respond to me, neither in the edit, premise, lengthyness, choice of focal lengths, camera movement nor framing nor color palette and contrast. @mercer That Sigma 30mm is a thing I had been keeping in my mind. I am a sucker for 28mm on S35. Kendys Canon work was magic, his Sony uploads on his channel are video imo. Besides colour, movement, framing and lensing are not in the same league as his Canon library imho. I can relate to the impact of a camera on freewheeling video essay work. I still hold a G70 in high regard for the mojo it has in HD 24p. The only two pieces I shot with it are still oozing color magic and forced me to design my shots and movements instead of gimbleing through the world rather effortlessly. No effort means no magic in most of the instances.

Agreed. I know you were never too much of a Canon guy, but I swear that the ProLost Flat settings always gave me a nice look with minimal effort in post. It wasn't until I "understood" more about color grading and LUTs did I start getting looks I didn't like.

As you probably remember, I have owned a lot of cameras in my day... 4K, 1080p, 6K... but other than my 5D3 (and the FP... kinda) my two favorite cameras were my old eos-m, even with the original firmware and the Nikon D5500... it was as small as a mirrorless and the Nikon Flat profile was sooo nice to work with... all it needed was a little contrast and some selective saturation.

6 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

The first few scenes on the train felt like a movie. Loved it! In another thread I bumped from 2015 where folks discussed cameras and color, as is my goal, some commented that as brands have moved to mirrorless they’re chasing resolution and in doing so neglecting color and overall image. Something to the effect that chasing greens versus other colors, has had a negative impact on the way color is rendered and that’s 9 years ago. Worth a review that thread. 
 

I originally curious about modern cameras that produce that movie look in the first video without lighting makeup etc. the skin tones and overall look felt less digital and more movie like. That’s what I was getting at with what brands are trying to achieve that ? What models most of us can purchase today gets us to that. 

Good points. I guess it depends on what you're planning on shooting, or do shoot? I am only interested in narrative filmmaking, so I have a specific look I like. It's definitely a filmic look. I've always said that most cameras from 10 years ago could "essentially" and convincingly achieve a 70s film look.

But the look of modern cinema isn't really close to a film look. It looks nice but it doesn't seem like they're trying to emulate that like the original Alexa attempted.

Even on this forum, you'll get dozens of opinions about it. Many want the most resolution they can get. I'm still happy with the 1080p magic lantern raw from my 5D3.

But I'm probably a weirdo, I'm seriously considering buying an old camcorder to get a specific "cinema" color filter that Canon had on their older models.

Back in the day, Canon was known to have the "best" color. The original Panasonic mirrorless cameras also had very nice color. Sony was considered the worst. Now with the different log profiles and color space transforms, any camera can be made to look good. But if you can find a camera with a good rec709 profile, that you like, why not? Log and CSTs and LUTs are great and some will help to eek out an extra stop or two of dynamic range, but in a lot of cases, you can get by with the 8-10 stops that rec709 offers.

Here's another film that I was highly impressed by shot on the OG BMPCC by a British brother team called Cosmos. What's interesting about this is that they were able to make a Hollywood looking film that was released in theaters. They also decided to shoot in ProRes LT to save storage space using only one lens for 90% of the film. It's amazing what you can accomplish if you try. It's not the tool, but the craftsman using it.

Whenever I start thinking about the beginning of the DSLR revolution or the Digital Revolution, I take my own advice and go back to look at some old videos that I love from those forgotten cameras.

This first round of films, from Kendy Ty and his t2i, I have linked to countless times, years ago, but I think they could be helpful or relevant to the OP's topic...

If I remember correctly, he used the t2i and the old Sigma 30mm 1.4. I believe he even created his own picture profile, in camera, for his earlier films.

Like so many others, he eventually moved onto a Sony 4K camera, but many people commented they preferred the look from his trusty, old t2i.

If there's a lesson here, it's simple... sometimes less is more. Sometimes the tool that gets the job done and is simple to work with, is better than wading through the minutiae of features and tech finding the best camera.

Making a film is one of the hardest things I've ever attempted... especially in a DIY, low/no budget space... but it's also one of the most exhilarating experiences I've ever had... even if ai haven't been successful with finishing the film...

Yet. 

4 hours ago, MrSMW said:

And the utter lack of it has me admiring Ripley on Netflix right now.

I’m partly thinking the Amalfi coast should be in colour, but the rest is definitely working for me as a B&W production.

Of course it would look shite if the coastal stuff was colour whilst the rest was B&W but chapeau on this 8 parter, I think it’s great.

Sorry it’s not a Joker II comment 😛

Didn't know that was in B&W. Thanks for the heads up. I adore B&W, so much so that I've been testing my FP in 4K 8bit mode for the sole purpose of having a smaller set up for a B&W film. 

To be fair, I vaguely remember the OP stating at some point that he/she likes to have discussions about gear. And let's be honest, this forum is primarily a gear forum. Perhaps the OP should mention that this discussion isn't necessarily about a decision he's currently planning on making and instead it's about learning and gathering information.

With that said, @kye has a fair point. These cameras are only tools for creative endeavors. These cameras will not make the film or  color grade your film or make your film good. At the end of the day, story is king.

I would suggest to the OP that they take some time and go back and look what people were creating when the DSLR revolution began. Look at t2i and GH2 videos to see what was possible with limited resolution, DR and resources.

7 hours ago, kye said:

Here's my recommendation for SOOC shooting - Sony AX100.  As Dave says "Sony AX100 looks better than your camera".

Just look at the nice contrast, saturation, and above all...  skintones!  and in mixed lighting no less!

Good luck getting that with a "better" camera - they all have far too much DR to give you a punchy image from their 709 LUTs or profiles.

I want one!

38 minutes ago, EduPortas said:

 

They bought RED bc of their tech, not their brand recognition. And the whole lawsuit entanglement, obviously.

I HIGHLY doubt they will juggle the Nikon brand with all its complexity AND a cinema line of cameras. 

That won't look right to investors. Nikon has been ruthless the last couple of years in trimming the fat. They finally made some gains bc the pushed new consumers upstream with the Z-Line. 

No way they'll let competitors (Canon in particular) use a Red camera with a Canon lens now. That's out the window ASAP.

On the contrary: they'll fortify the Z-Line and keep new customers there. It's all about the Z-Line and a new video branch in that ecosystem.

I agree the lawsuit and the patent for Redcode was probably the driving force, but they didn't spend hundreds of millions of dollars to buy Red solely for the patent. They could have licensed it for 2 decades and developed their own cine line of cameras and lenses for less than that.

Other than the RedCode patent... what other tech does Red have?

They have an established brand in the high end cinema space and a lower tiered customer base that will pay top dollar to be a part of that brand.

Don't get me wrong, I love photographic history and I am a huge fan of Nikon. I own a small set of ai-s lenses and a small set of scalloped ringed non-ai lenses with the "C" coating. They're obviously one of the greatest photographic companies in history with an amazing lineage... in the photographic world. Until very recently, their video capabilities were lacking. It will take a while for them to gel with a lot of cinematographers... they'll just use Arri cameras instead.

Then again... I reserve the right to be completely wrong. 

1 hour ago, EduPortas said:

Not likely.

Japanese companies are famous for their anti-gaijin philosophy.

They don't like foreign company work-cultures. It's not their style of business.

RED has some good products but Nikon will always see them as a "lesser" brand, not comparable in pedigree to them or Canon.

Give it a two years and they'll dismantle the entire thing or suffer administrative chaos. They'll dump 99.9% of the work force in RED once they show them their big-brain stuff. After that, it's one cut after another to keep their stockholders happy and fortify the Nikon--not RED--brand.

 

Doubtful.

Antiquated cultural practices aside, Nikon didn't need Red to create a lower tiered cinema camera. They bought a patent and a brand. A brand with a VERY loyal following in the lower tier and a loyal user base in the higher tier, Hollywood, cinematography world.

If they aren't, at all, interested in the brand, then they spent hundred of millions of dollars for a patent. Red doesn't make lower tiered cameras, but they can help each other.

If Nikon eventually dismantles the Red brand, it won't be in 2 years. Maybe in a decade after they gain the trust and reputation with the Red loyal user base and the Hollywood cinematography community.

I do think the Komodo could bridge the gap between Red and Nikon, though... with the OG Komodo being more Nikon with a new composite, user friendly design and the Komodo X staying truer to the Red brand.

But I think Nikon will use a "powered by Red" moniker, or something like that, in their higher tiered MILCs.

It would be utterly ridiculous for Nikon to absorb or abolish the Red brand, especially since they aren't natural competitors. They purchased Red for the Redcode patent so they didn't have to license compressed raw from Red or ticoRaw.

It's really that simple.

If they use the Red branding in any future Nikon release, who knows. If they decide to venture into the low tier cinema camera market, it will involve the Komodo and they won't change the name of it other than add Nikon to it somewhere. Maybe... Nikon CineRed Komodo. They won't take the Red name away, they'll just add Nikon. 

On 4/10/2024 at 10:49 AM, PannySVHS said:

If I got that right, the Sigma offers not only a S35 mode in Raw, but other crop modes as well? What crops does it offer besides S35, maybe Mft or S16? That would be super nice, some sweet S16 50p.😊 @mercer

I believe it only offers a S35 crop. Due to the compression methods from the 6K sensor, some say that the S35 crop is superior... but I didn't buy a FF camera to shoot in S35. And the difference is probably minimal and I don't care about minimal.

But as usual, I'm probably the weirdo here, because I still prefer good 1080p over run of the mill 4K.

For instance, I mentioned earlier that I think some lenses shine with certain cameras. After thorough testing, most lenses look pretty good in 4K. By that I mean, most vintage lenses have a certain level of sharpness that is good enough due to the 4K. In fact, I think vintage lenses help to tame the sharpness... resolution of 4K.

Now with my 5D3/ML Raw, some of those same lenses just don't work. But with a more modern lens, the image looks really good, in my opinion better than the FP.

Here's a shot from the 5D3 with the older non-Art Sigma 50mm 1.4...

And here are a couple shots of the Takumar on the 5D3...

Obviously, they're different shots so in some ways they're incomparable...

And here's a B&W shot with the Tak on the 5D3 that's a lot more interesting...

So what's my point...

I have way more options than I need and B&W makes everything look cooler.

That is all. 

12 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

Looks stellar.@mercerGood thing the Sigma is not really better regarding battery performance in comparison to the P2K. That way I won't long for it.:)

Wow, awesome find! @QuickHitRecordWould love to see some results and moving pictures filmed with that lens. The 2/3" route could also show some potential for tiny zooms. I found a 6x 11.5 - 69mm Kowa, which translates to a 44 - 264mm lens in 135 film terms,  weighting 300g. 10mm at the wide end would have gotten me exited. On a 2/3" cropped Eos M or a GH5/6 with a 2x Digizoom this might still be an interesting zoom lens.

Thanks, I think I should clarify my earlier statement about the battery life... when I said it's not much better, I was probably exaggerating... it's no GH series camera regarding battery and considerably less than my 5D3, but it's not nearly as bad as my experience with the P2K.

And even with its flaws, which there are many, I still think the FP is probably the best camera for your money on the market today... if you're interested in narrative filmmaking... or even casual video if you don't mind taking your time and using a bunch of storage.

Even the internal 8bit 4K cDNG raw is quite usable if you want a smaller set up. One of the reasons I tested the camera with the Tak was to see how the internal 4K 8bit raw was for a B&W delivery... knowing the yellowing from the Thorium could help with the final B&W image. 

Here's another shot from the Tak/FP combo. I don't know about anybody else, but I have been noticing some major disparities between the image in my computer and what the image looks like posted to different sites/devices, so this is also a test of that for me.

Either way, I really like this lens with the FP. I've been saying for years that some lenses just work better with certain cameras. I was about to sell this lens, now I'm going to dig through my closet and find my 35/3.5 Tak.

20 hours ago, QuickHitRecord said:

There are some pretty long threads of things that other users have tried in the EOS-M Facebook group. Maybe something in there will bring your little camera back to life?

These look great! I have always enjoyed the look of the Takumar lenses. What is your film about?

I'll have to take a look one of these days because I would like to mess with it... plus I have all these c-mounts lying around and I'd like to have a camera to use them on.

Thanks, I feel like I am flying blind some times with color work because my screen sucks so bad. The idea I am outlining right now is kind of a coming of age horror film about adult characters.. kinda like Stand by Me if the dead body was looking for them.

In other news, I finally had a chance to get out and shoot some stuff yesterday with the FP. For this outing I brought along an oldie, but a goodie... the Super Multi-Coated Takumar 50mm 1.4.

Here are a couple shots that didn't turn out terrible...

I'm still using my old MB Air from 2014, so I can't always say the image posted looks exactly like my graded image. I hope to upgrade my computer soon enough.

That said, I'm in the middle of a test for a short film I am hoping to make this summer.

But to stay on topic, I forgot how amazing the Tak 50mm is and I really like it with the FP.

On 4/1/2024 at 1:58 PM, QuickHitRecord said:

I have a similar unbranded lens that's f1.6. With the 2.5K crop mode, it's almost perfectly usable throughout the range. It's a fun little lens, and very versatile. The only downsides are the rotating filter threads, slight vignette at certain focal lengths, the zooming mechanisms/runners showing up in bokeh when shooting wide open, and spikey party-favor bokeh when closed down. So, there are some compromises.

I was looking around the ZLKC storefront on AliExpress and there are lots of neat 1.1" c-mount lenses on offer. I would imagine that they would cover S16, but I can't find any reviews.

Have you installed Crop Mood yet? The M becomes a whole new camera.

Ah, yes. I remember that mod. It was one of my favorite threads on this site. Once you start getting into 1/2" lenses and smaller, it really is uncharted territory. Too bad there aren't many interchangeable lens cameras that can work with them.

Haha, I haven't used mine in so long that I can't say if it suffers from the same afflictions.

I'd love to mess around with ML on the eos-m, but it seems my camera is broke and won't turn on any more. It could be that all of my batteries went bad... I used to buy really cheap ones.

2 hours ago, QuickHitRecord said:

That seems quite bizarre! Which lens is this?

I can't find a single review online, so it's anyone's guess what it would be like to actually use.

I think by moving the zoom and focus ring at the same time is creating a hyperfocal thing.

I just checked the zoom lens I used to use with the eos-m years ago with magic lantern and it's a Cosmicar 12.5-75mm f/1.8...

But with that S8 crop, it's hardly a wide angle. I remember it being okay enough optically though.

I believe there are a few 8-48mm c-mount lenses floating around too. If you weren't looking for a zoom, I'd recommend the Kowa 6mm 1.8 lens that seems to be a great little lens and can still be bought new... although a little pricey. 

Didn't you ask this same question 2 other times in the past 3 months?

I still suspect it will be a novelty, though. For years, all we've heard are rants about internal, compressed raw and those fuckers at Red but I think when everybody has the opportunity to shoot with it, they'll move onto needing 8K 120p and internal compressed raw will become a lot less important.

But it's highly unlikely that Nikon won't enforce their new patent. I assume they'll probably license it like Red did, but look how long it took these companies to pay licensing fees for ProRes.

8 minutes ago, Eric Calabros said:

It isn't for everybody because there is no high compression, yet. NRAW supports 12:1 or 1 bit per pixel. Its just 600mb/s for 6k30p, but Nikon's current options are only 4.5:1 and 7.5:1. 

BRaw had it and it wasn't enough to keep people interested. Even internal ProRes Raw in the Z8 didn't force people to switch systems to get an internal compressed raw format. But with the price of storage coming down and if it opens up into more cameras of choice, then perhaps you're right. It'll be interesting to see how this unfolds. 

Another example was the C200... that was released in 2017... I think? I had just started shooting ML Raw on a 5D Mark iii and I was blown away that Canon was releasing an official raw format in their base cinema camera. But most people were extremely pissed off due to the huge file sizes, expensive CFast cards and lack of codec options.