TheRenaissanceMan

Honestly they are the target audience. They are RED users that use the resolution heavily in their edits for cropping and zooming, also have been heavily critical of the RED ecosystem in the past.

Big reasons they are switching:
- In camera backup to 2 cards.
- Ability to use common media instead of RED mags, which is HUGE for their storage costs. 
- Every editor in their office now has a fully featured copy of Resolve.

That’s some of the best footage I’ve seen out of any camera. 

Its not about 12k its about getting really good 8k which is one of the first things mentioned in the Blackmagic announcement. RED has certainly thrived on the high resolution front. 

Forgetting about who uses 8k or who might use 12k lets look at what this camera actually offers for the price. 

12k at 60fps
8k at 120fps
6k at 120fps
4k at 120fps
4k cropped at 220fps
vs The RED helium
8k at 60 fps 
6k at 75 fps 
5k at 96 fps 
4k at 120 fps 
3k at 150 fps 
2k at 240 fps 

Keep in mind all the lower resolutions on the RED are cropping in on the sensor, greatly limiting the usability. The RED S35 helium also costs $24,500 plus the cost of RED mags. 

We need to see the Dynamic range and low light performance coming out of the URSA 12K. If it keeps up with the helium in those two categories then it really will be something for RED to be afraid of IMHO. Lets also consider the amazing rolling shutter performance. 

Its less than half the price of a RED, with cheaper storage, and seems to just be a better camera in every way. 
So far Black magic really hasn't put anything out there that was this competitive. I think the Pocket 6k could have been very competitive but no one could really take it seriously with the weird ass "Pocket style" body. 

I am hearing great things about GEN 5 color science too. It sounds like the sort of brown muddy color issue is gone, greens are vibrant, and no more neon blue color clipping. Unfortunately the Resolve update with Gen 5 is only available for Mac right now. 

No worries. I apologize if I was being over sensitive.
Actually, my best friend of 30 years died of complications of Covid-19. He was a filmmaker in the middle of pitching a film to Netflix when he contracted Covid, and he was also a film critic for Pop Matters. So honestly, when I read these arguments about stupid cameras, I kinda laugh it off now and wish I never got involved in those arguments in the past.
Do I think 12K is silly... yes... but I'm still happy with my 1080p raw... so obviously I'm not the target consumer for this camera.
I'm still trying to figure out what filmmaking is in today's world and without my friend, so I have little interest in arguing about politics or cameras.
Live and let live...
On a positive note, I'm in the middle of writing a script, for a short film, that can be shot during Covid and I'm hoping to shoot it by the end of the summer.
I hope you and your loved ones are doing well. Please continue to be cautious, and safe!!!

12K is more a marketing meme for the camera.
Its real point is that it doesn't have a 2x2 Bayer matrix (as in my avatar on the left), but a 3x3 RGB matrix where all three colors are equally present.
That means you will be able to downsample the 12K sensor signal into a 4K signal with no color interpolation by binning 3x3 pixels into one pixel. That's the equivalent of a 3-chip camera or Foveon sensor. Clean 4K with 4:4:4 color sampling and zero debayering artefacts.
That's the real point (and news) of this camera. 12K is just marketing fodder for bloggers and influencers.

I have watched this conversation play out over all the Canon R5 and now BM 12K threads, where one side gets excited and says it's great for their use-case and the other side says its ridiculous because the use-case isn't common / it doesn't align with their experience / it's too expensive / the data rates are too high / etc.
I think one thing is missing here, which is to talk about budget and the state of the art.
The state of the art in cameras is actually quite limited, and there are very very many situations where you can't get more for your money even if you had it.
Here's an example...
I make home videos and I want a small setup that won't attract attention going into parks, museums, aquariums, etc, and I like IBIS.  I use my GH5 for this, but it has limitations.  I would like extra DR.  I would like a 12-bit mode.  I would like dual-ISO.  I would like a bunch of things, but I can't have them.  At any price.  If I was a multi-millionaire, I still can't have them.
Think of how many people lament the Canon offerings, and want a set of features that is not available in any Canon camera, regardless of price.
Think of how many people would love the P4K or P6K or URSA but are put off by the reliability or QC.
Hollywood has embraced the Alexa Mini form-factor because it is portable / flexible / light-weight to the point that it enables creativity that had not previously been possible with their heavier models.  This is because none of the previous models offered the combination of features that the Mini offers.  At any price.
Big Hollywood productions don't care how much a camera costs, they rent for a very small percentage of their production costs.  If a camera cost double and did the job then great.  Triple? No problems.
This is how I see the BM 12K and Canon R5 cameras, and many others.  They offer a combination of features that previously could not be had at any price.
So, if you own a collection of S16 lenses and want to shoot 6K or at high-framerates that was previously not available at any price then why is this so completely ridiculous a concept?
I think that @JimJones enthusiasm might make it sound like the whole cinema world will implode because of this, but of course it won't, and neither did it implode when the BMPCC 2K first came out, but it sure imploded if you were a fan of tiny cameras and shooting with older lenses.

"Dude" you literally called it plastic multiple times and didn't know the camera was metal. You've been talking out of your ass. 

Holy shit, are we really complaining about how it looks now? It's not going to win any awards, but it looks fine. All the buttons are easily accessible and it's easily rigged up. 
Are we really gonna pretend that RED cameras are good looking? They're boxes with a mid 2000s gun anesthetic. 

RED color and footage holds up.  RED blows away BM across the board. 
Black Magic footage is always graded away from natural color.  Always.  The same with the GH5.  Give me one color grade that has a natural look and let's see how these cameras hold up. 
 
 
 

Spot on.
 
Yes this camera does 12K, and if it made many sacrifices to get that 12K then it would be silly but I'm really not seeing any sacrifices made here by Blackmagic.
You can still shoot 4K and 8K RAW with no crop. You still get frame rates over 30p. You can still record to inexpensive, off the shelf media. It (most likely) won't overheat every 20 minutes. The files are seemingly very easy to work with.
The only sacrifice, if you want to call it that,  is the price.....but given who this camera is aimed at, $10,000 is not expensive at all. 
What I'm taking from this is how exciting the future from Blackmagic looks now that they are creating their own sensors, codecs and post hardware and software.  
I'm excited to see a Full Frame camera in a smaller form factor like a Kinefinity, Z-Cam or even C300 style body etc but with a sensor that might let me shoot 8K, 6K and 4K RAW with no crop in a fantastically flexible codec that I can work with on a laptop. 
What's not to like!
 

I said it in the other thread which is now getting a bit fractious but I think they're going for RED's market

I hope you´re doing very good and everything is fine! Thank you very much for uploading so much test footage. It is a parade of nerd heaven!:) Is this external 10bit 422? My harddrives are bursting from footage at the moment, so how much data are the files? @mercer Wha?t about some footage of your cat? You would give Mattias Burlings Gunpowder a good run for the money. What´s your cats name, for a start?:) cheers

I remember that topic! Didn't see a lot of difference between his samples though, so I dismissed it as a placebo effect. I'll have to add a couple picture profile clips to the folder for comparison.

EDIT: Clips 18-20, shot in Picture Profile SLOG, have been uploaded to the drive folder.

Hey y'all! Sorry I wasn't able to get footage up sooner. I've been feeling under the weather this week, which has been understandably stressful given COVID. Still waiting for my test results, but I'm improving steadily, so hopefully everything comes back negative. 

But enough about me--let's get to the fun part.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1nYFylo03zFn2W-P5OtZ08xvZEuQrscGh?usp=sharing

These shots are just casual off-the-cuff clips taken around my apartment complex, but hopefully they still prove useful to those interested in how the F3 grades. I tried to get a variety of lighting scenarios, shot sizes, and color temps. The cookbook shot is ISO 1600, and the one under the bed is maxed out at 6400. Everything else is at the F3's base ISO of 800. 

At @mercer's request, I've included some cats this time. 😁

Keep in mind that I sometimes adjusted/bracketed focus or exposure during shots, so be sure and scrub through to find the most useful frames. 

Let me know if y'all have any other questions! 
 

Hey y'all! Sorry I wasn't able to get footage up sooner. I've been feeling under the weather this week, which has been understandably stressful given COVID. Still waiting for my test results, but I'm improving steadily, so hopefully everything comes back negative. 

But enough about me--let's get to the fun part.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1nYFylo03zFn2W-P5OtZ08xvZEuQrscGh?usp=sharing

These shots are just casual off-the-cuff clips taken around my apartment complex, but hopefully they still prove useful to those interested in how the F3 grades. I tried to get a variety of lighting scenarios, shot sizes, and color temps. The cookbook shot is ISO 1600, and the one under the bed is maxed out at 6400. Everything else is at the F3's base ISO of 800. 

At @mercer's request, I've included some cats this time. 😁

Keep in mind that I sometimes adjusted/bracketed focus or exposure during shots, so be sure and scrub through to find the most useful frames. 

Let me know if y'all have any other questions! 
 

I remember that topic! Didn't see a lot of difference between his samples though, so I dismissed it as a placebo effect. I'll have to add a couple picture profile clips to the folder for comparison.

EDIT: Clips 18-20, shot in Picture Profile SLOG, have been uploaded to the drive folder.

Randomly found this when I was searching for that topic. Nice looking color.
https://youtu.be/2GOUeB3dpng

Interesting...I've heard the opposite--that the picture profile version of SLOG is inferior and has "incorrect" color compared to the "proper" SLOG out. I've never noticed a big difference in my (admittedly brief) tests, so I use the latter option for the ability to toggle LUT on and off in the onboard monitor. 

The clips I posted above use the non-picture profile version of SLOG.

Hey y'all! Sorry I wasn't able to get footage up sooner. I've been feeling under the weather this week, which has been understandably stressful given COVID. Still waiting for my test results, but I'm improving steadily, so hopefully everything comes back negative. 

But enough about me--let's get to the fun part.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1nYFylo03zFn2W-P5OtZ08xvZEuQrscGh?usp=sharing

These shots are just casual off-the-cuff clips taken around my apartment complex, but hopefully they still prove useful to those interested in how the F3 grades. I tried to get a variety of lighting scenarios, shot sizes, and color temps. The cookbook shot is ISO 1600, and the one under the bed is maxed out at 6400. Everything else is at the F3's base ISO of 800. 

At @mercer's request, I've included some cats this time. 😁

Keep in mind that I sometimes adjusted/bracketed focus or exposure during shots, so be sure and scrub through to find the most useful frames. 

Let me know if y'all have any other questions! 
 

Hi John,
I think this is for EU only and the dealers are not allowed to ship to the US.
You can still try to e-mail each of them to see if this is the case.
Or if there is no other solution, you need to ask someone nicely who is located in the EU to ship them to you  😉

It mistook it for AndroidLad.

My bad then.  By the way, the crew that filmed for me said it was an accident and not their fault. 

With proper IR filter the BM cameras produce wonderful colour. You should do your research and hire crew that know what they're doing 

Of course they are still selling them with the IR issue.  Brilliant is not the word I would use for unstable color.

What's even funnier, were people that were saying the heating issue was a lazy excuse for Canon not implementing raw & higher bit rate on their DSLR  years back are now the same people complaining about over heating on the R5 & R6. 
 
I guess there is no pleasing some.