IronFilm

6 hours ago, Emanuel said:

oh God, each post from yours, a pearl by its own... : ) I rest my case! :-) Save your energy to handhold your 8-year used RED ONE MX instead :-D

- RED ONEs #111 & #647   

Emanuel, you still own 2x R1?!

33 minutes ago, Zak Forsman said:

...a close second is being potty trained.

Oh shit. You are right. 

6 hours ago, mercer said:

Are we really discussing wide depth of field to argue that the GH5s is as good in lowlight as FF, especially the a7s?

I feel you are totally missing here when DoF is brought up. Which is as the DoP, you (together with the director) decide on a certain DoF you want to shoot a scene at. 

Do you for instance only want the tip of the actress' nose to be in focus or do you want her whole face to be sharp? Do you want the person she is sitting next (imagine you are shooting down the bar, not straight on) to to be totally blown out of focus and not clear (you might), or do you want her to be out focus but still kinda clear who the person is, or do you want them *both* to be sharply in focus? 

What you pick depends on the scene and story you're trying to tell, what is appropriate to match with it. 

Then whatever DoF you decide upon after that (be it a few inches, or a few feet) you then translate that to the right F stop (well... T stop, if you want to be consistent across lens changes) to shoot on your lens. And if you're using an a7Smk2 instead of a GH5S, that F stop is forced to be a lot higher! Which thus starts you off at a disadvantage in a low light scene vs a GH5S. 

8 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

You can get a bmpc4k + ursa mini 4k all kittet out for less than $3k... sign me up.

Well I use eBay sold listings as my guide:

And either come at around US$1.5K ish. 

But I'm sure with your secret bargain sources you could easily do better? ;-) 
As I keep on being told my eBay prices I see are not bargains after all :-/ :-( 

12 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

The DR and Lowlight is what it is. Manageable.

Damning faint praise indeed! ;-)

But I'd agree with you. 

7 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

If you think the a7S is a better camera than the GH5 then you are using a very selective set of criteria.  They are both great systems, but the GH5 also has great picture quality, and wipes the floor with the Sony device in terms of usability, reliability, portability, and adaptability. 

Exactly. And that is the original GH5 which comes out ahead of the a7Smk2

14 minutes ago, mercer said:

Except it isn’t, no matter how you justify it, FF has a two stop advantage over Micro 4/3.
<snip>
Is there something I’m missing here, because I’m not following you?

Yes, twice as much light falls on a FF sensor than a 4/3"
And people repeat this over and over as if somehow this is an automatic trump card which wins the argument. 
When this is very clearly false!!!

Even a super simple test of this statement shows how outrageously false it is. 
Compare say a 5Dmk2 video vs a GH5 (the original! Forget about the GH5S for now).

Clearly clearly the GH5 is doing better in lowlight than the 5Dmk2. You'd have to be blind to say otherwise. 

So hopefully that makes it super clear it is not just about the amount of light which falls on the sense. As rather arguably what is more important is how the light is used by the sensor!

It might almost be best to forget about sensor size (as it is the sensor engineers who need to worry more about that than us), and just focus on the resulting image instead! :-)

6 hours ago, ryne275 said:

i don't understand...ya'll want a cine cam...but if that's REALLY what you want there are better options out there...hell, you can find a used red one mx for about the same price...3k 60fps, 4k raw, 120 in 2k...

gh5s might have more bells & whistles but the red one is a cine cam and the other is a prosumer cam...plus the red won't give you that icky digital video look

 

I basically almost NEVER give a downvote. But was forced to join @jonpais here and do the same! 

As SERIOUSLY? Have you even shot with a RED ONE any time in the last couple of years or so? I have, on quite a few shoots (usually sound department, but sometimes as DoP too). Never by my "choice" though! ha

Under the right conditions the R1 can be nice (but so can almost any camera....), but the lists of cons for the R1 is so extensive! That for 97% of users here the R1 would be a bad choice indeed. 

Heck, even I'd rather shoot with a BMPC4K + URSA Mini 4K combo than shoot with one RED ONE MX. (which the two cameras together secondhand would cost similar, or less, as what a RED ONE does)

And the 4K sensor BMD used in them was the worst BMD ever put out!



 

7 hours ago, noone said:

It seems to me from the various tests that some are saying the GH5s is the new king and others are saying it is very good for M43.    Seems to me physics says it will be more likely very good for M43 (and as good as any APSC and some FF).       It DOES look nice at 25600 in some tests but not sure I would say it is better than an A7s yet.

There is no APS-C stills cameras that do better at lowlight than the GH5S. None.

And in my views and others, the a7S loses to the GH5S at high ISO ranges you'd use. 

 

7 hours ago, noone said:

The A7s was dethroned as low light king by a couple of medium format cameras recently.

Not for video that I know of.

9 hours ago, mercer said:

So, are we really discussing lowlight and wide depth of field to try and argue that the GH5s is as good as FF... especially the a7s?

When it comes to lowlight, then yes the GH5S is better in lowlight than the a7Smk2

Especially in a practical sense as MFT sensor allows you to use faster lenses than would have been practical on the a7S. It really is pretty simple when you think about it & try it out. 

9 hours ago, Thpriest said:

Am I right in saying that the IS in Canon lenses will work with a speedbooster?

Yes it will. 

7 minutes ago, jonpais said:

What was the butt-ugliest video camera ever made?

 
Pick any of the consumer camcorders with SD quality. 

Or heck, one of those VHS tapes camcorders!

20 minutes ago, jonpais said:

It's all bullshit. Since when has anyone ever heard anyone complain of IBIS until Panasonic released their GH5s?

Because it is rather niche scenarios where IBIS was a problem. (but exactly where the GH5 would be a B cam on higher end productions, like on a car rig. So the GH5S will then be perfect for them!)

I am sure that if Panasonic could have offered IBIS and still hit their targets, then they would have!

And Panasonic is not saying no IBIS is better,  just that losing IBIS is not going to be all a negative. 

 

21 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Including IBIS would've necessitated completely re-designing the body, which would have run into the millions of dollars for retooling. And added cost to the camera. As well as every filmmaker having to purchase new cages, new everything. Then the shit would hit the fan!

Exactly! I think this is quite possibly what happened. 

Panasonic just can't win :-o

10 hours ago, Zak Forsman said:

I agree. but it doesn't add up to 14. say you can see 12 steps on a xyla chart, but the bottom 4 are so noisy they are unusable. then another camera sees the same 12 stops on a xyla chart but only the bottom 2 are too noisy to use. that's the difference we're talking about. the range is still 12 stops in both scenarios.

This is why there can be such a big disagreement between people as to how many stops a camera has!

One person might disagree with another as to at which you can see the last stop or not. 
Other people might count usable (which opens its own kettle of fish!) stops, while another just counts all stops.
That doesn't even count the mistakes people might make... such as not shooting at base ISO for their test. 

3 minutes ago, jonpais said:

@IronFilm I would be seriously be shocked if there were even more than one serious response to my question. 

I have my fingers crossed we'll get an answer eventually on TC!

The second my local store has a demo GH5S I am going over and asking if I may do a video for my vlog in their store of the TC feature! Then we will know. 

7 minutes ago, sanveer said:

Frame drops was an issue that Dave Dugdale said was happening with the GH5 too (or was it the GH4?). I clearly remember him saying that there was an issue with syncing due to this. The solution was pretty simple, which was a re-sync it, to check where the video started from.

 

Could you link to it. As the GH4/GH5 isn't dropping frames for TC... as well it doesn't support a TC input! Ha

Might have been video frames it was dropping, but that is very odd, we'd have heard about that! (just remember all the cries of anguish when people experienced it with the BMPCC etc...)

9 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I would argue this camera is a bigger breakthrough than the A7s was. Is is a little ass sensor doing as good as a big ass senor, so that does defy Physics.

At the very least it will shut up many a7S fanboys who look down on Panasonic users! For that I alone I am super grateful :-D

Plus giving us TC for the first time just makes me doubly gratefully to Panasonic!   You stole my heart guys (but you had it already!). 

http://ironfilm.co.nz/leaked-the-specs-of-the-panasonic-gh5s-finally-we-get-the-first-stills-camera-with-timecode-i-o/

5 minutes ago, tweak said:

Inside a waterhousing?...

There we go! We're finding a solution already :-D lol

6 minutes ago, DBounce said:

Well if it is always 9 frames that would be pretty easy to code around.

They likely didn't do extensive testing. 
I bet it varies, depending on how long it has powered down for. (this has been my experience with TC on many many many other cameras)
But if it is a consistent 9 frames, then a firmware update will indeed be the easiest thing in the world for them to bring out ASAP :-) 

12 minutes ago, jonpais said:

but I want to see how it compares to the GH5s at ISO 400, 800. 

Why do you want ISO 400,800? Isn't ISO 100,000 enough? ;-) hehe

9 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

A7Sii is applying a lot of noise reduction and giving us artefacts  from 12800 upwards in low light. GH5s gives a better lowlight image at ISO 6400, same at 12800, slightly less at 20000, 2 stops less at 102400. There is an obvious nonlinearity in the numbers. Both images from 16000ISO  on would rather not be used for cinema projection. GH5s beat it at 6400. At lower ISO it´s even so much better than A7s, it´s not funny any more.

When can split hairs about that number, you say 1600 ISO, I might say 3200 ISO, a clean ISO nerd might say 800 is their max (!!). Some bold fellow might even be perfectly happy with 6400. 

But the core point remains: the GH5S is *better* at lowlight for any ISO level you'd actually use! (as we're never going over 12800 ISO on the GH5S, especially once DoF is matched)

9 hours ago, eleison said:

The best thing about the sony a7sii for me is that I can "f8 and be there" almost in all lighting situations. 

Good news, you can run the GH5S at F4 with the lovely 12-60mm f2.8-f4 and also "just be there" in all lighting situations! And it will look better than the a7Smk2 does at f8

9 hours ago, eleison said:

... but, it's good in low light.. not the greatest.. but good... 

Nope, GH5S is going to be better in lowlight than the a7Smk2!


 

9 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

but I agree with you this new camera is as good as a A7s at 25,000 ISO. It is pretty crazy. The Sony then pulls ahead. But who the hell shoots any higher than 25,000.

I have been saying for a long time that "shoots lowlight" is a feature that has been ticked off for ages  now.

Any one remember the bad old days of a DVX100 or later say EX1? No wonder everyone was obsessed with better lowlight!

That all changed with the HDSLR Revolution. Even the old ancient GH2 wasn't so bad:
 

Now the GH5S puts the final nail in that coffin of "needing lowlight!! (and the a7Smk1 put the last few nails already, but the GH5S is the final nail!)

It is over. The mission is complete! Let's stop talking about lowlight now. 

And instead focus on more important features we want. 

Such as built in NDs on a GH series camera ;-) :-D

6 minutes ago, jonpais said:

@IronFilm Probably can be addressed in FW, otherwise a fatal flaw for a production camera....

My bet is it is a reviewer mistake. Just seems far too odd otherwise. 

But yes, IF true then hopefully their first firmware update should keep it constantly jammed to the source!

It isn't the absolute end of the world however if I come across a camera that does this. As I'd hook up my Timecode Systems :wave to the GH5S, then jam an Ultrasync ONE to my F4 which receives TC on the :blink network. Thus both my recorder and camera remain in perfect sync! Too easy ;-)

39 minutes ago, jonpais said:

@IronFilm According to extrashot, when using TC, every time the camera goes to sleep, you lose 9 frames. Which kind of makes this camera worthless for synching up a mulit-cam shoot. Unless Panasonic issues a firmware update. Or do you think it's still worthwhile?

source

Was shocked myself when I saw that yesterday, I posted this comment immediately on the video:
 

Quote

@13:25 WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTT????????????? That is PURE MADNESS!! The camera going to sleep & loses TC?? OMG, that is truly shocking news. Surely the GH5S should be jammed to the input? Please please tell me it only loses sync when it is relying upon its own internal TC! As that would be sad, but not at all a deal breaker. But if can't stay jammed to a box attached to it, then you have to seriously question why Panasonic even bothered? As that is the most stupid ever flaw of the GH5S.

This is the problem when you have non-sound people reviewing sound features, the odds are very high that they made a complete screw up in their assessment. Or at least that is what I am HOPING happened!!

14 minutes ago, Chrad said:

I can't see it out this year. They released the GH5s just now and updated the GH5 four months ago. It's too soon for a new GH, with two currently supported models being pushed. 
I think GH models will stick to a two year average cycle.

The GH5 was announced late 2016. For it to be announced late 2018 would be following the rough 2 yr plan. 
So I'd easily give it 50/50 odds to come out late this year or early-mid next year. 

And yeah, GH5S will have at least a two year cycle too. (it is a new series the "S" variant, so too tricky to say what they might do in the future. It might be they only offer a "S" variant in alternating GH updates? Because the "S" variant is a much smaller niche. So GH6 might skip it, then the GH7 gets a GH7S? Who knows! )

Setting exposure is one of the most basic things a person should first learn! 

9 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Only thing maybe the EVA has over the GH5s is is Maybe can do Raw down the road,

Built in NDs. 
SDI outputs. 
Better TC implementation. 
Etc...

People forget what a difference the rest of these can make!

9 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

Of course it is worse from 20000 on and much worse from 25600 and even much more so from 51200 on for NIGHTWATCH NO LIGHT purposes. It has  better lowlight than a a6500, so you guys come up with a A7sii. It beats it at 6400iso for Cinema purposes! Stop complaining, please.

I'd bet in post once you push the files around then at 20000 the GH5S will be better than the a7Smk2

The a7Smk2 only looks better at the super high ISO ratings if you're doing straight out camera with no/minimal post work. 

And seriously if you're shooting GH5 at 20000 and that is not enough, what the hell?? That is the same as freaking 80000 on the a7Smk2 for the same DoF!!!

I believe the AJA camera uses exactly the same sensor as the BMD 4K one. Which was BMD's worst ever choice of sensor. 

Plus the very high cost of the AJA Cion at launch (relative to BMD with the same sensor), and a bunch of other quirks with it, set it back and the camera never took off. 

 It is a pity, I'd have liked to have seen an AJA Cion mk2!

But yes, it shows what you can do even with lower DR and terrible lowlight performance!

Heck, even I'd rather shoot with a BMPC4K + URSA Mini 4K combo than shoot with one RED ONE MX. (which the two cameras together secondhand would cost similar, or less, as what a RED ONE does)

Will be seriously putting forward this as a proposal for the feature film I might be shooting this year, as an alternative over the RED ONE (which unfortunately the director/producer has their heart set on! We have had a shoot already last month for this feature film with 2x RED ONE I was DoP for). I'll certainly have a few other suggestions up my sleeve as well to try and swing away from the RED ONE preference, such as Sony PMW-F3 or Sony FS700 4K raw output.  (EVA1 + GH5S would be the dream! But probably way out of the budget)

1 hour ago, tweak said:

Let me know how to stabilse vintage anamorphics/lenses in a waterhousing... we're talking big money. 

A waterproof gimbal? Haha

9 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

I find a monopod the best solution for fast-moving situations, but they don't offer perfect stabilisation, so it's a compromise.

I do love my monopod for fast paced event shooting! As heck,  I do not own any  cameras with IBIS! :-o

9 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

1) a GX80 (GX85) as a B-cam, and for grab-and-go IBIS action.

Get a G80 instead, just is a step up that is worth it. Have that as your IBIS camera for low budget / event shoots. As likely they won't need the 10bit codec anyway for heavy post demands. 

Then get a GH5S for your relatively "higher" end work. 

And either camera can be the B cam to your other one! 

When doing events your GH5S is your B Cam on a locked off tripod while you grab shots on your GH5S. 
On films your GH5S is A cam but your B cam is the G80 just to grab a few extra bonus angles as well. 

 

9 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

2) a GH5 as a tandem cam (using the GH5s when the occasion requires, GH5 as an alternative A-cam and backup).  Would this be a ridiculous investment, given that it takes you close to the price of a full cinema camera?

GH5S + GX85 + GH5

Yeah... starting to think just getting an EVA1 could be better! 

8 hours ago, anonim said:

What I may add, it is that for me seems that goes on unnoticed fact that Panasonic consumer sector for a long time had no any new sub model... it seems as they silently abandon lower market and are focusing completely on top models (variations of mobile phones have in every circle more and more stronger capability and influence). What does it mean for your dilemma - I think that life and comparative practic usability circle of GH5s easy could not be too long, depending of sale rate and very sharp competition (Sony, Fuji, anounced mirrorless Nikon etc).

Patience! I am certain in 2018 we will see a successor to the G80 or GX80

 

7 hours ago, Chrad said:

GX95 this year, GH6 and G10 year after, GH6s year after that.

 

With luck we'll see the GH6 come out late this year in 2018, other early-mid 2019 is my bet. 

Hopefully a G90 comes out mid/late this year as well. 

6 minutes ago, Simon Shasha said:

The 2-stop boost might be for the Micro Studio Camera 4K only, not the Micro Cinema Camera. I will speak to my contacts at Blackmagic and verify.

Yes, when read this back the firmware  update came out I thought it was only for the Micro Studio (which is of zero interest to me).

6 minutes ago, ryne275 said:

why buy this when a7sIII is imminent? hell , even an original a7s makes more sense than this...

Nah, that is nonsense. 

Even the GH5 is is better than the a7S mk2! (come on, ten bit internal! Or 4K 60fps, or waveforms monitoring! So much goodness there)

Am skeptical if the a7Smk3 will catch up with the GH5 original, and the GH5S is a leap ahead! 

Plus the a7Smk3 is guaranteed to cost more.