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12 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:

Panasonic is NOT being "stubborn" with PDAF.

Believe me,....Panasonic is TIRED of hearing their AF complaints. They KNOW....believe me,...the know! They are doing the best they can with what they have.

I really don't belie this is the case!

Whoever produces the sensors, produces them after buyer's specification. I really believe Panasonic are suborned as a mule in regard to implementing PDAF, as are Sony in regards to proper ergonomics, menus and touch interface. Japanese arrogance has no boundaries!

Also look at Canon, they finally gave 4K 60p with no crop and raw video but it is without PDAF. I bet they all have a cartel agreement between them so that no one offers a products that will bring out of the business the others.

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6 minutes ago, Eno said:

 

Also look at Canon, they finally gave 4K 60p with no crop and raw video but it is without PDAF. I bet they all have a cartel agreement between them so that no one offers a products that will bring out of the business the others.

Yes "really finally" because there a are soo many others camera and manufacture that offer 4k 60p FF with AF 😉:

A wait only C700FF and C500 II have it.

It is an huge amount of data to read and process in a small not ventilated camera. No cartel of whatsoever..... just cost and tech challenges.  

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4 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

It is an huge amount of data to read and process in a small not ventilated camera. No cartel of whatsoever..... just cost and tech challenges.  

This is pure BS you know? Reading RAW sensor data is easier than reading and encoding it. There is absolutely NO technical reason why there is NO AF on RAW output on 1Dx3 but the Canon crippling hammer!

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1 hour ago, Eno said:

This is pure BS you know? Reading RAW sensor data is easier than reading and encoding it. There is absolutely NO technical reason why there is NO AF on RAW output on 1Dx3 but the Canon crippling hammer!

You need to process these pixels to do the AF while you are reading and pumping out to a CFExpress card in parallel in a weather sealed body..... No one as done it yet in a sealed body..... and with fan only two cameras that starts at 16k usd did achieve this….. So yes there is not technical reason is just a cartel crippling 🙂

 

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16 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

You need to process these pixels to do the AF while you are reading and pumping out to a CFExpress card in parallel in a weather sealed body..... No one as done it yet in a sealed body..... and with fan only two cameras that starts at 16k usd did achieve this….. So yes there is not technical reason is just a cartel crippling 🙂

 

Should I mention that Canon braves itself with the "new Digic X processor purportedly offers 3.1x faster image processing and 380x faster computing performance relative to the older Mark II", that can't handle AF during 4k 60p with no crop or RAW 30p. So you tell me if either Canon are lying about it's capabilities and it's not that fast or they intentionally crippled the AF in 4K 60p and RAW recording? I bet it is the latter, they are masters at crippling user desired features!

The camera reads the RAW data in any mode and the card reader writes the data anyway (until it's limit speed). The lack of AF during RAW recording is indeed just a "cartel crippling" as you personally said.

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21 minutes ago, Eno said:

Should I mention that Canon braves itself with the "new Digic X processor purportedly offers 3.1x faster image processing and 380x faster computing performance relative to the older Mark II", that can't handle AF during 4k 60p with no crop or RAW 30p. So you tell me if either Canon are lying about it's capabilities and it's not that fast or they intentionally crippled the AF in 4K 60p and RAW recording? I bet it is the latter, they are masters at crippling user desired features!

The camera reads the RAW data in any mode and the card reader writes the data anyway (until it's limit speed). The lack of AF during RAW recording is indeed just a "cartel crippling" as you personally said.

You should check your facts because 1dx iii can perfectly AF at FF 5.5k 30p RAW it cannot at 60p

Second the camera reads RAW in buffer then you need to do AF and in parallel compress the RAW data write to the card and process a 4k supersample proxy 10bit 4:2:2 and write to a second card all in 16ms max. But yeah is crippling as everybody has this tech and spec in a weather sealed body.....

 

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54 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

You should check your facts because 1dx iii can perfectly AF at FF 5.5k 30p RAW it cannot at 60p

Second the camera reads RAW in buffer then you need to do AF and in parallel compress the RAW data write to the card and process a 4k supersample proxy 10bit 4:2:2 and write to a second card all in 16ms max. But yeah is crippling as everybody has this tech and spec in a weather sealed body.....

 

You should check you fact! NO, the 1DX mk3 does not have PDAF "enabled" in RAW video at any frame rate!

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13 minutes ago, Eno said:

You should check you fact! NO, the 1DX mk3 does not have PDAF "enabled" in RAW video at any frame rate!

Yea right you should not trust youtubers and news guy wanna be but check the official spec: https://www.canon-europe.com/cameras/eos-1d-x-mark-iii/professional-filmmaking/

"Dual Pixel CMOS AF

When shooting video, Dual Pixel AF provides smooth focusing on objects selected by tapping the camera screen (or the screen of a smart device running the Canon Camera Connect app).* Faces and other objects can be tracked around the frame and the camera will smoothly re-focus to keep them sharp. You can even select which eye the focusing system should prioritise, or leave the camera to select the nearest to the camera.

* Dual Pixel AF operates in all modes except for none crop 4K or RAW at 60p/50p recording."

https://downloads.canon.com/nw/camera/products/eos/1d-x-mark-iii/specs/eos-1-d-x-mark-iii-specifications.pdf

(5472 x 2886)
59.94 fps* 29.97 fps 24.00 fps 23.98 fps
RAW
4K DCI (4096 x 2160)
59.94 fps* 29.97 fps 24.00 fps 23.98 fps
ALL-I IPB
4K UHD (3840 x 2160)
59.94 fps* 29.97 fps
ALL-I IPB
4K DCI (cropped) (4096 x 2160)
59.94 fps 29.97 fps 24.00 fps 23.98 fps
ALL-I IPB
Full HD (1920 x 1080)
119.90 fps** 59.94 fps 23.98 fps^
ALL-I IPB
29.97 fps
ALL-I IPB IPB (Light)
* AF does not function. ** Audio not recorded at High Frame Rate 119.90 fps recording ^ 24p recording will be supported through firmware update after shipping.

 

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"Except for none crop 4K"

"Except for RAW at 60/50p"

So it only works in Super 35mm crop mode ALL-I... There is no crop mode RAW.

That's my reading of it.

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21 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

 Dual Pixel AF operates in all modes except for none crop 4K or RAW at 60p/50p recording."

 

In the press release this wasn't clearly mentioned.

Anyway, the "new Digic X processor purportedly offers 3.1x faster image processing and 380x faster computing performance relative to the older Mark II", but can't handle PDAF in 4K 60p (without crop) or RAW. Anyway you look at it smells like "cripple hammer".

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The table is clear no AF in RAW 50/60 and FF 4k 50/60 not to hard to read.

Same is the Europe spec: * Dual Pixel AF operates in all modes except for none crop 4K or RAW at 60p/50p recording." 

 

Capture.JPG

 

 

It is so hard to understand that the only two camera on the world that can do FF at 50/60 with AF have big cooling fan and at least double of the body size. From the same manufacture and about the same pixel count. For sure Canon decided to put fan just for fun so they are not weather sealed. So yeah cripple hammer.

You guys should write some high throughput parallel code on non active cooled cpu and then you will realize how hard is to keep it stable running. 

 

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4 hours ago, Eno said:

Also look at Canon, they finally gave 4K 60p with no crop and raw video but it is without PDAF. I bet they all have a cartel agreement between them so that no one offers a products that will bring out of the business the others.

There's a lot of secrecy in Japanese culture but also no such thing as the perfect camera. I believe they play fair. They are multinationals and any wrongdoing would have been discovered by now like Woodford at Olympus and the overstated profits scandal. It's just a little frustrating we have all the features we want spread around different cameras and never in just the one. There's always a cripple hammer somewhere, or a "tech challenge", or a compromise, or just something missing or something taking a wrong path.

Maybe patents are the issue, or certainly a big part of it.

What is the perfect cam anyway? Well - here is the camera you get if you combine the existing "best" technology from everyone... And let's see who provides it...

FF 5.5K RAW (Canon 1DXIII) or Netflix approved 10bit V-LOG (Panasonic S1H)... No crop!
Dual Pixel AF (Canon 1DXIII) or Sony A9 standard 4D PDAF (equally good in my view)
5 axis IBIS (Panasonic S1H has the best performing)
Cinematic colour science (Alexa... oh they are German, erm... Canon or Leica with Fuji a close second!)
Huge 5.5m dot EVF (Panasonic S1H... Who wants an optical one?!)
4K/60p with no crop (Canon 1DXIII)...Second best is 8bit FF 4K60 on Panasonic and 10bit Super 35mm 4K60 on Fuji X-T3)
Slow-mo to high quality (Sony, Fuji, Panasonic all good here at 120fps 1080p+ with crisp detail)
ProRes RAW... Nikon had a go, but only externally
Sexy ergonomics and good menus (Leica SL2)
Anamorphic mode (Panasonic and Leica)
Mirrorless mount (Sony E-mount is my pick for most adaptable with most lenses)
Bonus point for medium format 4K (Fuji GFX 100)
Bonus point for value for money (Fuji X-T3)
Low light performance (Panasonic S1H)

Contribution tally:

Panasonic: 7x
Fuji: 4x
Canon: 3x
Sony: 3x
Leica: 3x
Nikon: 1x

Olympus, Pentax on zero, no stand out leading cinematic features.

So we must conclude Panasonic gets closest to perfect camera all in one body with the S1H but it drops the ball for AF and not having an E-mount on it :) but it's a very even spread between top 5. You can argue Leica is only there thanks to SL2, which is damn near a perfect camera in 2020 just lacks Dual Pixel AF and perhaps some form of hinge on the damned screen.

Nikon Z6 gets a lot of things right BTW but doesn't stand out on much apart from ProRes RAW with Atomos does it? Still, you can claim it does everything right... no crop, full frame 4K, IBIS, PDAF, good low light, value for money (a ridiculous bargain used), ProRes RAW external, good EVF, good colour science, nice Canon EF adapter from Fringer with great AF in video mode, very adaptable lens mount, even takes an E-mount adapter, good 120fps 1080p and good ergonomics...

So it is not always about leading in one or two aspects... It's about not falling down in important ways.

Then again, nobody told you lot as interest in Nikon Z6 is about as low as it gets ;)

17 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

The table is clear no AF in RAW 50/60 and FF 4k 50/60 not to hard to read.

Same is the Europe spec: * Dual Pixel AF operates in all modes except for none crop 4K or RAW at 60p/50p recording." 

 

Capture.JPG

It is so hard to understand that the only two camera on the world that can do FF at 50/60 with AF have big cooling fan and at least double of the body size. From the same manufacture and about the same pixel count. For sure Canon decided to put fan just for fun so they are not weather sealed. So yeah cripple hammer.

You guys should write some high throughput parallel code on non active cooled cpu and then you will realize how hard is to keep it stable running. 

 

First time I've seen this table.

So that settles it then.

It is only at 60P DPAF packs up and goes home.

They should reword the sentence to :"Dual Pixel AF operates in all modes except for 4K 60/50p and RAW 60/50p"

Otherwise you can take it to read it doesn't work in any non-crop 4K mode at all.

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3 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

 

First time I've seen this table.

So that settles it then.

It is only at 60P DPAF packs up and goes home.

They should reword the sentence to :"Dual Pixel AF operates in all modes except for 4K 60/50p and RAW 60/50p"

Otherwise you can take it to read it doesn't work in any non-crop 4K mode at all.

The communication and wording is super crap. I think once they saw the confusion they should have printed big and make it clear like you said.

Btw the table is liked in the spec pdf from the USA web site. 

 

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8 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

I agree with your logic. It is an illogical thing to do in terms of business, like personal vengeance. All companies forget about competition when they can make money with each other. Look at Apple using Samsung tech. Yes Samsung can mock them as much as they want in their commercials but at the end of the day they will perfectly supply one another with tech and make profit. 

Panasonic is not stubborn about contrast AF. Many people believe that Panasonic engineers are "stupid" or "unaware" or "uneducated" about how hybrid AF works and how good it is.

Hybrid PDAF uses TWO data sources to make focus decisions with, target contrast and waveform phase correlation. Panasonic uses contrast only for its decision making.  Many think that Panasonic are "holding on" to the idea that phase correlation is not necessary. Yes, it gives you exact focus direction between a target moving in the forground and background....but that Panasonic is not impressed with this information like the rest of the camera world is....because Panasonic is "ignorant" about the entire process. Panasonic believes that ONE inaccurate data source (contrast) s better than TWO data sources. (With the second being highly accurate and directional phase corelation)

Don't believe this. Panasonic is not as stupid as you might think they are! Panasonic knows VERY well that their lack of modern PDAF Sony sensors is the #1 most damaging sales problem that Lumix has! They KNOW this 100%. Believe me, Sony PDAF sensors on future Panasonic cameras would upset Sony Alpha managers TREMENDIOUSLY!

Sony sensor sales are NOT hurt by Panasonic ANYWAY! Panasonic can't liscense PDAF sensors...but STILL liscense the non-PDAF versions anyway!...no Sony money lost!. BTW...Sony will not liscence PDAF sensors to BlackMagic either. They are forced to use the IMX294, the sister chip to the GH5-S iMX299. (No PDAF onboard...no, Sony is NOT giving PDAF to BlackMagic either)

Again....Sony will NOT help Panasonic fix their thousands of AF complaints that Panasonic gets. Instead....Sony Alpha RELIES and counts on Panasonic AF complaints.

Jeremy Young of Atomos said it best. "If you want to get Canon to do something, get Nikon to do it first. If you want Sony to do something, get Panasonic to do it first"

Sony Alpha does not fear Nikon, Olympus or Fuji. They DO fear Panasonic. Panasonic competes against Sony on more products than cameras alone and that rivalry is old and very strong. It's not even just a tribal rivalry issue alone. Sony Alpha NEEDs at least one of its major rivals to have focus problems. Especially when it does NOT hurt Sony SemiConductor's bottom line in sensor sales. It's a win for Sony Alpha and a win for Sony SemiConductor. Panasonic is still forced to liscence Sony non-PDAF chips anyway.

Panasonic is not "stuborn" with contrast-only AF....they just have their hands tied today and are doing the only thing they actually can with the sensors they can actually liscence.

Anybody that thinks that Sony is TRYING to sell PDAF sensors to Panasonic but Panny REFUSES to buy them?...is absolutely wrong.

Anybody that thinks that Sony is NOT overjoyed that Panasonic is stuck in contrast AF Hell?....is absolutely wrong.

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11 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:

Anybody that thinks that Sony is TRYING to sell PDAF sensors to Panasonic but Panny REFUSES to buy them?...is absolutely wrong.

I was not saying that in my reply. I was saying that the answer is probably a truly convoluted, twisted mess.

But I still don’t get the logic.

You would think Sony, inventor of the Walkman, would want to do there best to “own” the market. To make Sony a household name in the camera business and by extension gain brand recognition in all their other endeavors.

Maybe the truth is Sony cannot restrict PDAF sensors to Nikon, Olympus, and Fuji because those companies owns something in the PDAF technology stack OR because of some convoluted technology sharing, swap or patent deal with Minolta (now owned by Sony).

Case in point is the squabble between Honeywell and Minolta over patent infringements of autofocus technology (TCL) developed my Honeywell. Honeywell won, but claimed this in its victory in 1992:

“Honeywell attorneys, for example, said that pretrial investigations had uncovered cooperative practices among the Japanese manufacturers, cooperation the attorneys say would constitute antitrust violations in the United States. Camera industry committees in Japan discussed both the design and pricing of new products before they reached market, Honeywell said Monday.”

I suspect things probably haven’t changed that much. Hence, why no one can make the perfect camera.

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That theory, if a bit on the conspiracy side, makes perfect sense though.

Seeing how Panasonic went all-in with s1h, at a premium price that is, I don't get why they wouldn't have gone the PDAF route if they had the choice. ("nah mate, PDAF is over rated, we don't want this sensor"). 

They may be stubborn but they aren't stupid either. There is not one person on this planet who thinks contrast autofocus is better than PDAF. I am pretty sure Panasonic thinks the same. If they had released any of their last camera with PDAF  - Gh5(s), S1(h), G9 - imagine what their market share would be. 

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On 1/22/2020 at 6:02 AM, Julien416 said:

That theory, if a bit on the conspiracy side, makes perfect sense though.

Seeing how Panasonic went all-in with s1h, at a premium price that is, I don't get why they wouldn't have gone the PDAF route if they had the choice. ("nah mate, PDAF is over rated, we don't want this sensor"). 

They may be stubborn but they aren't stupid either. There is not one person on this planet who thinks contrast autofocus is better than PDAF. I am pretty sure Panasonic thinks the same. If they had released any of their last camera with PDAF  - Gh5(s), S1(h), G9 - imagine what their market share would be. 

Remember that Panasonic was stubborn before, saying for years that IBIS was not necessary because OIS stabilization was superior (something that Canon said a lot too). Fuji even said that will never implement IBIS in their cameras. And Sony and Olympus never revamped their menu systems.

Don't know much about corporate culture in Japan, but looks like that is a lot of pride involved, some resistance to accept an error...

But in the PDAF Panasonic's case, yeah, I think that is some agreement / licensing blocking involved. 

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