DJI Mavic Pro II

[HockeyFan12]

1 hour ago, Cliff Totten said:

I bought a Mavic 2-Zoom AND Mavic 2-Pro 30 seconds after it hit their web site..

I also own a Phantom 4 Pro+ V2.0 today. My goal was to sell my Phantom 4 Pro+ V2.0 and keep the Mavic II Pro as my main 1 inch aircraft. (Keep the Zoom too as backup) However, this issue with the Mavic II Pro's "HQ" mode and "FOV" mode has me concerned.

Questions:

Is the Phantom 4 Pro V2.0 doing a full 16x9 pixel readout and scaling to 4k? (it looks pretty damn good today)

Is the Mavic Pro-II now pixel binning or line skipping it it's "full" 16x9 readout? (NOT the same scan as the Phantom 4 Pro V2.0)

Is the Mavic Pro-II cropping and using a 1:1 readout and calling THIS mode "HQ"?? WTF?

IS the Phantom 4 Pro V2.0 actually using a higher quality full pixel read out than the Mavic-II Pro??

This is one topic that really does concern me. I might not sell my P4P-2.0 if it's sensor scan is better than the Mavic-II Pro!

DAMNIT!

Wish I could afford either. ?

There's some sample footage here:

https://www.tomstechtime.com/dronefootage

I already linked to the Mavic footage, but that link forwards to clips from the Phantom 4 and other cameras, too.

The Phantom 4 Pro looks much sharper than the Mavic Pro 2 footage but it has sharpening artifacts and thin tonality. Looks bad to me by comparison. I suspect it's not a full pixel readout/downscale, or if it is then it's a low quality one. But preferences vary.

To me, the Mavic looks dramatically better–like night and day. Difference between a (low end) cinema camera and dSLR as far as tonality and color are concerned. Still don't love the way green is rendered, too yellow, but it has a much better look to me overall, though preferences will vary.

[sanveer]

9 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

Wish I could afford either. ?

There's some sample footage here:

https://www.tomstechtime.com/dronefootage

I already linked to the Mavic footage, but that link forwards to clips from the Phantom 4 and other cameras, too.

The Phantom 4 Pro looks much sharper than the Mavic Pro 2 footage but it has sharpening artifacts and thin tonality. Looks bad to me by comparison. I suspect it's not a full pixel readout/downscale, or if it is then it's a low quality one. But preferences vary.

To me, the Mavic looks dramatically better–like night and day. Difference between a cinema camera and dSLR as far as tonality and color are concerned. Still don't love the way green is rendered, too yellow, but it has a much better look to me.

The link you posted has many of the drone footage one could look for. Thanks for sharing.

[Luke Mason]

1 hour ago, Cliff Totten said:

I bought a Mavic 2-Zoom AND Mavic 2-Pro 30 seconds after it hit their web site..

I also own a Phantom 4 Pro+ V2.0 today. My goal was to sell my Phantom 4 Pro+ V2.0 and keep the Mavic II Pro as my main 1 inch aircraft. (Keep the Zoom too as backup) However, this issue with the Mavic II Pro's "HQ" mode and "FOV" mode has me concerned.

Questions:

Is the Phantom 4 Pro V2.0 doing a full 16x9 pixel readout and scaling to 4k? (it looks pretty damn good today)

Is the Mavic Pro-II now pixel binning or line skipping it it's "full" 16x9 readout? (NOT the same scan as the Phantom 4 Pro V2.0)

Is the Mavic Pro-II cropping and using a 1:1 readout and calling THIS mode "HQ"?? WTF?

IS the Phantom 4 Pro V2.0 actually using a higher quality full pixel read out than the Mavic-II Pro??

This is one topic that really does concern me. I might not sell my P4P-2.0 if it's sensor scan is better than the Mavic-II Pro!

DAMNIT!

P4P uses the same downsampling algorithm (pixel-binning) as Mavic 2 Pro in full FOV mode up to 4K 30p.

P4P 4K 48/50/60p use pixel-binning + line-skipping.

Mavic 2 Pro 4K HQ mode uses 1:1 readout for 10bit HLG/D-Log.

[Cliff Totten]

7 minutes ago, Luke Mason said:

P4P uses the same downsampling algorithm (pixel-binning) as Mavic 2 Pro in full FOV mode up to 4K 30p.

P4P 4K 48/50/60p use pixel-binning + line-skipping.

Mavic 2 Pro 4K HQ mode uses 1:1 readout for 10bit HLG/D-Log.

Damn,...are you pretty sure about this? The Ambarella H1 image processor was a massive improvement over that Ambarella A9 junk that the GoPro3 and Mavic Pro had. However, Ambarella surpassed the H1 with the H2 and H22 and now H3 which can do 4k 120fps and even 8k 30p.

I'm hoping DJI would have chosen a much newer Ambaralla chip than the H1. I'm waiting for the first Mavic-II tear down video to get on YouTube.

CT

[Luke Mason]

31 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

Damn,...are you pretty sure about this? The Ambarella H1 image processor was a massive improvement over that Ambarella A9 junk that the GoPro3 and Mavic Pro had. However, Ambarella surpassed the H1 with the H2 and H22 and now H3 which can do 4k 120fps and even 8k 30p.

I'm hoping DJI would have chosen a much newer Ambaralla chip than the H1. I'm waiting for the first Mavic-II tear down video to get on YouTube.

CT

Mavic 2 Pro uses Ambarella H2 for the 10bit HEVC Main 10 Level 5 Profile.

Sensor readout mode is mostly dependent on the sensor though.

[Cliff Totten]

2 hours ago, Luke Mason said:

Mavic 2 Pro uses Ambarella H2 for the 10bit HEVC Main 10 Level 5 Profile.

Sensor readout mode is mostly dependent on the sensor though.

You might be right about the H2 processor. I'm working with Mavic-II Pro 10bit HEVC files straight off the card. The noise reduction seems to be far superior to the Ambarella H1 files from the Phantom 4 Pro V.20. Shadows are clean but not overly scrubbed to Hell the way the Mavic Pro's Ambarella A9 used to be. These H2 files appear to be a big step up from the H1.

[Robert Collins]

10 hours ago, wolf33d said:

Exactly lol. The only marketing shit now is the full sensor avoidance when sides only work in Tripod mode and active track... which I both never use

And DJI says they wont be effective in 'active track max'.

Those side sensors are going to cause more problems than they solve.

[wolf33d]

Correct. But it has the best sensor avoidance on the market and you can desactivate them if needed so it’s fine

[sanveer]

6 hours ago, Luke Mason said:

Mavic 2 Pro uses Ambarella H2 for the 10bit HEVC Main 10 Level 5 Profile.

Source?

[Shirozina]

I'll wait for the inevitable Phantom 5 with an M43 sensor......

Very difficult to fly these things legaly here in the UK these days anyway but I hope with more saftey features like 360 deg obstacle avoidance they CAA may start to take a more rational approach.

[sanveer]

I guess for the longest companies promised 10-bit video in a tiny form factor (from LG V30, to the Sony RX0, to a plethora of other companies). They all had issues they couldn't resolve and all oversold an idea. It was clearly possible, and Sony had sensors from the IMX477 size onwards (1/2.3") that could do 10-bit video. Companies didn't implement it, I am guessing, mostly due to terrible heat management (smartphone would probably explode and the Sony small cameras would probably melt). Anything apart from the GH5 and GH5s, even for ILCs, has been unable to handle it internally, despite their enormous size (in comparison to the M2P).

Now that DJi had implemented it, I am wondering whether heat is at all an issue with it, and how it handles that and other issues so well. 

Also, somehow the whole form factor fascinates me. Would love to see something like this on a handheld gimbal, with interchangeable lenses (with the battery in the grip).

Plus I also expect to see a bit of a rat race with cameras in small form factors implementing it (Hint: a 2019 flagship with a new kind of heatsink, which is being tested right now). 

[Luke Mason]

45 minutes ago, sanveer said:

I guess for the longest companies promised 10-bit video in a tiny form factor (from LG V30, to the Sony RX0, to a plethora of other companies). They all had issues they couldn't resolve and all oversold an idea. It was clearly possible, and Sony had sensors from the IMX477 size onwards (1/2.3") that could do 10-bit video. Companies didn't implement it, I am guessing, mostly due to terrible heat management (smartphone would probably explode and the Sony small cameras would probably melt). Anything apart from the GH5 and GH5s, even for ILCs, has been unable to handle it internally, despite their enormous size (in comparison to the M2P).

Now that DJi had implemented it, I am wondering whether heat is at all an issue with it, and how it handles that and other issues so well. 

Also, somehow the whole form factor fascinates me. Would love to see something like this on a handheld gimbal, with interchangeable lenses (with the battery in the grip).

Plus I also expect to see a bit of a rat race with cameras in small form factors implementing it (Hint: a 2019 flagship with a new kind of heatsink, which is being tested right now). 

It has nothing to do with heat, most of them are capable of continuous 12bit/14bit RAW. 10bit video wouldn't be a problem. But it's the limitation of the processing architecture. Mirrorless/DSLRs have either RAW output or JPEG output, a 12/14bit and 8bit engine. It takes extra resources to implement an additional 10bit processing path. DJI uses off-the-shelf Ambarella SoCs so 10bit is readily available. Fuji XT3 is confirmed to have 10bit also, I guess it's easy for them to implement as Fuji uses ARM processors for their cameras.

[webrunner5]

7 hours ago, Shirozina said:

Very difficult to fly these things legally here in the UK these days anyway...

Yeah that way where I live also. Not worth having one here.

[sanveer]

1 hour ago, Luke Mason said:

It has nothing to do with heat, most of them are capable of continuous 12bit/14bit RAW. 10bit video wouldn't be a problem. But it's the limitation of the processing architecture. Mirrorless/DSLRs have either RAW output or JPEG output, a 12/14bit and 8bit engine. It takes extra resources to implement an additional 10bit processing path. DJI uses off-the-shelf Ambarella SoCs so 10bit is readily available. Fuji XT3 is confirmed to have 10bit also, I guess it's easy for them to implement as Fuji uses ARM processors for their cameras.

IMHO your argument make so sense. 

[Kisaha]

From Thein Ming himself

About Hasselblad connection.

"However, the idea of a ‘Hasselblad’ camera is not just medium format – it’s accurate color and tonal reproduction with the most appropriate components at various points in the imaging chain, from lenses to sensor to image processing algorithms and circuitry. We are a small company and will never claim to make the chips ourselves – that’s just not economically possible. But the secret sauce lies in tying it all together, which can be done at many format sizes "

About making a standalone camera as small that can be used on a handheld gimbal

"Not quite that simple: gimbals are most effective with lower moving mass; this means everything that does not have to move (i.e. everything apart from sensor and lens) is in the body of the drone – that’s processing, power and some of the gimbal motors. It cannot be that small…"

My comment: heat is very important.

[Robert Collins]

5 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

From Thein Ming himself

About Hasselblad connection.

"However, the idea of a ‘Hasselblad’ camera is not just medium format – it’s accurate color and tonal reproduction with the most appropriate components at various points in the imaging chain, from lenses to sensor to image processing algorithms and circuitry. We are a small company and will never claim to make the chips ourselves – that’s just not economically possible. But the secret sauce lies in tying it all together, which can be done at many format sizes "

About making a standalone camera as small that can be used on a handheld gimbal

"Not quite that simple: gimbals are most effective with lower moving mass; this means everything that does not have to move (i.e. everything apart from sensor and lens) is in the body of the drone – that’s processing, power and some of the gimbal motors. It cannot be that small…"

You do know that Ming Thein is the Chief of Strategy at Hasselblad? Or not?

https://www.hasselblad.com/press/press-releases/hasselblad-appoints-ming-thein-as-chief-of-strategy/

[Kisaha]

11 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

You do know that Ming Thein is the Chief of Strategy at Hasselblad? Or not?

https://www.hasselblad.com/press/press-releases/hasselblad-appoints-ming-thein-as-chief-of-strategy/

Even if only 2 experienced engineers and 1 color specialist influenced the decisions on DJI, that would be an improvement from the 20s-30s something Chinese engineers and software makers.

It is a good move for both of them, DJI offers innovation, capital and networking, Hasselblad offers knowledge, experience and a heavy history.

DJI can make Hass. a pop icon.

https://www.google.gr/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2017/1/10/14213742/dji-acquire-majority-stake-hasselblad-drone-camera

[Andrew Reid]

20 hours ago, Luke Mason said:

P4P uses the same downsampling algorithm (pixel-binning) as Mavic 2 Pro in full FOV mode up to 4K 30p.

P4P 4K 48/50/60p use pixel-binning + line-skipping.

Mavic 2 Pro 4K HQ mode uses 1:1 readout for 10bit HLG/D-Log.

What's the crop factor for that 1:1 readout from 20MP down to 4K?

Doesn't it make the 1" sensor essentially about 1/2.3"?

And the low light performance will suffer in both modes.

I'm starting to think I should have got the Zoom instead, for the extra creative possibilities, if the image quality difference is going to be hurt by the Pro 2 sensor quirks. Also, it was cheaper.

[Andrew Reid]

There I fixed DJI's marketing material!

I have now ordered both the Zoom and Pro so we'll do a shootout next week in Berlin and I'll send the loser back to DJI's warehouse.

The Zoom has H.265 as well, just 8bit not 10bit and CineLikeD instead of D-LOG.

But that is equivalent to H.264 200Mbit and easier to edit than 10bit.

We'll see how CineLikeD holds up colour wise. Maybe dialled down flat and with a LUT in post it can be quite nice (like on Panasonic GX9).

Not sure if posted previously...

Entertaining to watch but there is a mistake at the start on the chart. The Mavic 1 is not a better image than the Mavic Air. It's more compressed and softer.

The Zoom shots of the rollercoaster and beach are really cinematic.

[Luke Mason]

59 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

What's the crop factor for that 1:1 readout from 20MP down to 4K?

Doesn't it make the 1" sensor essentially about 1/2.3"?

And the low light performance will suffer in both modes.

I'm starting to think I should have got the Zoom instead, for the extra creative possibilities, if the image quality difference is going to be hurt by the Pro 2 sensor quirks. Also, it was cheaper.

That crop mode is quoted in the IMX183 sensor spec: https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/new_pro/may_2014/imx183_e.html 1/1.4" equivalent.

 

47 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

There I fixed DJI's marketing material!

I have now ordered both the Zoom and Pro so we'll do a shootout next week in Berlin and I'll send the loser back to DJI's warehouse.

The Zoom has H.265 as well, just 8bit not 10bit and CineLikeD instead of D-LOG.

But that is equivalent to H.264 200Mbit and easier to edit than 10bit.

We'll see how CineLikeD holds up colour wise. Maybe dialled down flat and with a LUT in post it can be quite nice (like on Panasonic GX9).

Not sure if posted previously...

Entertaining to watch but there is a mistake at the start on the chart. The Mavic 1 is not a better image than the Mavic Air. It's more compressed and softer.

The Zoom shots of the rollercoaster and beach are really cinematic.

H265 100Mbps is not equivalent to H264 200Mbps, the 50% bitrate reduction using H265 is only observed in very low bitrate, highly compressed siturations (eg. streaming).

In higher bitrate H265 is the same as H264 in terms of encoding efficiency.