IronFilm

On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 9:47 AM, rokkimort said:

By the logic of some people if I don't want to make money with video work, I should not own a good camera?

No. That wasn't what I was saying.

Plus a BMPCC / F3 / GH5 / FS700 / LS300 / etc are all very very good cameras in their own rights. Cameras with these capabilities that many indie filmmakers just a few short years ago would have given their kidney to get their hands on.

Anyway, my core point is just to keep things in perspective.

A camera is but a tiny part of the overall package you need to spend. Especially if you're an indie filmmaker just doing it for the love of it, there is a greater need you'll also have to have a comprehensive lighting + sound + etc kit as well. Vs if you're a professional owner op you might be able to get away with a bit more minimalistic kit, as you'll be hiring in crew people with that kit or having the budget to rent.

And like another commentor said, if you go with a cinema camera such as a RED ONE then it will place heavy demands on the size of crew and lighting package needed. Either that, or you'll find yourself severely limited with only a R1.

Also, if you're an indie filmmaker you'll be making relatively few films per year. Vs a professional who is using their camera day in day out every single week. Yet the likes of a brand new URSA Mini Pro will be experiencing very heavy depreciation over the coming years. Thus from the long term perspective I wouldn't recommend it. (Too often have I seen indie filmmakers blow the bank on an expensive camera that is the latest hot item such as say a brand new Sony EX1 or Panasonic AF100, only to sit sadly with it a few years down the track never having used it to its full potential)

So once you think about the total cost of ownership both initially and over the years, it is a sizeable sum. Now if you're the guy who can drop tonnes of money on his hobbies (I think the analogy I gave before was spending $20K on golf clubs?!) then sure, go right ahead and buy an URSA Mini Pro! Or Kinefinity Terra 6K! Or a RED Raven! Or whatever.

I have zero problem whatsoever with wealth, and people spending extravagantly if it is within their means.

But I was just pointing out that for most people they don't have that kind of money to drop on a hobby, once you all add it up. Thus for most indie filmmakers an F3 / BMPCC / FS700 / GH5 / LS300 / etc are the max camera spend it makes sense to do.

Note I said "most" and "max". Not "all". There are always exceptions!

Note also, I said "max". As I'd also say for the bulk of indie filmmakers a GH1 to G80 is the range where they fit in. Not even a GH5.

Too often I see new filmmakers with say a GH5 but only the kit lens!

They'd be better off buying a Panasonic G80 and putting the spare money into a few Nikon F mount lenses + focal reducer + redhead kit + C stands & cutters / diff + a few LED lights.

btw, any one want to take a guess as to what camera that web series was shot with that I did sound for? ;-) 

12 hours ago, mercer said:

It is my understanding that there is little money to be made from zero budget features. It may lead to a bigger budget for subsequent films but often the creator is forced to self-distribute their first film. 

Absolutely true, but I'd still argue there is greater potential to an upside from a feature film than a web series. Even though both could be potential a similar amount of work. 

12 hours ago, mercer said:

And I don’t think Kaylee is planning on having any budget, so cost is probably not really a concern.

Time and opportunity cost is still real factors to consider. 

And even a "no budget" production can run up into the thousands once you consider food / gas money etc

On 9/17/2017 at 12:50 AM, maxotics said:

Here are two female Nikon photographers I took with a Sigma dp2s @Mattias Burling

 

Looks like the camera to the far left is a Canon :-/ 

On 9/22/2017 at 7:53 AM, cantsin said:

"Motion cadence" is a term that only exists in camera forum discussion threads - it's neither a technical, nor a scientific term.

And only in the smallest of smallest nichey niche camera forum discussion threads. 

On 9/22/2017 at 8:04 AM, jcs said:

It would appear the primary factor in motion cadence would be the clock / sampling interval. If the sampling interval is perfect, e.g. each frame sampled at very close to 1s/23.976, that will have different a perception vs. a system with temporal jitter. It would seem film would have some temporal jitter, vs. a digital system would could be a lot more precise. The question is what 'looks better' and if temporal jitter is helpful, how would a digital camera implement it? (statistical sampling: average interval, variance, magnitude etc.). Likewise, if temporal jitter is pleasing, why aren't there post tools which specifically address this? (I've seen film effects which 'damage' footage, however nothing so far that subtly creates temporal jitter based on specific camera systems in the same way e.g. Film Convert works for color/grain).

With a precise motion pattern, cameras could be measured for temporal jitter / motion cadence (it would appear that cameras with genlocks could be jittered live).

So by this logic, we should only buy cameras which have genlock? 

Edit:  no wait, I read too hasty! You do NOT want cameras with genlock used?? :-/ 

It really is not such a big deal to be lacking 444

As to record 444 you need a fairly expensive recorder, which kinda defeats the purpose of buying this amazing camera on the cheap?!

While it can still do great ProRes HQ with a very cheap HD recorder.

Yeah, the latest Samyang series is the same as the latest Rokinon series. Just different branding.

5 hours ago, rokkimort said:

Right now it's down to Ursa Mini Pro vs Red Scarlet MX. If anyone has opinions about these cams – feel free to let me know. 

No brainer, the 4.5K sensor is better than the MX sensor. 
And the URSA Mini Pro has more features than the Scarlet. 
Also this is just my gut feeling, but I suspect once you look at the total cost of a Scarlet kit it will be notably more than an URSA Mini Pro?

5 hours ago, rokkimort said:

I have just sold the Blackmagic Micro, yes it's nice, but I want to have 4k, so f3 also does not work for me.

 

I strongly feel that in 2017 that 4K is not the right choice for a hobbyist who is not seeing a financial return from their investment. 

Exceptions: 
Mirrorless/DSLR 4K, they're pretty cheap (but even for someone starting out, I wouldn't recommend). 
JVC LS300, surprisingly cheap too. 
RED One MX / URSA Mini 4K / FS700 / BMPC4K, arguably these could be included, but they do have a heck of a pros/cons list you should carefully analyze before leaping in.

However, if you're the kind of person who drops $20K on a set of a golf clubs... then I guess nothing wrong with spending $$$$ on your film hobby too.

5 hours ago, rokkimort said:

GH5 produces videos, I don't like the footage I saw online, motion is not cinematic.

Do remember that 95% of an image is due to the operator / director / crew / post team. Not the camera!

And 99% of GH5 owners lack that. Unlike your typical RED Weapon / Arri Alexa XT / Sony F65 / etc shoot.

So yes, those *are* better cameras. For sure!
But don't make the mistake of thinking too much less of the GH5 just because of the typical user video. (odds are if they were handed a RED it would be just as bad/good!).

4 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

Still flawed though and there's no perfect cam. 

Exactly why you don't want to be spending $7K on a camera in 2017.

12 hours ago, Fritz Pierre said:

Completely agree with @IronFilm on this....$2000 yes....but $7000 or 10,000 or 20,000 has to pay for itself....good lenses are so much more important IMO to spend your money on, which is what I invest in long term...also +1 on the F3...a beautiful image for what you spend, if you want a Cine camera specifically, instead of a hybrid. Also the BMD micro camera produces a stunning image...far below the cost of $7000, as do a multitude of other cameras.

People often look at just the camera body cost itself, and think they can stretch to buy it, but forget the total cost of the overall system. 

A couple of years ago I wrote a blog post based around a GH2 kit:

http://ironfilm.co.nz/a-priced-out-gear-kit-for-a-newbie-to-filmmaking-using-the-panasonic-gh2/

Now the GH2 is a very *VERY* cheap camera to buy secondhand, but it is quite eyeopening the total cost once you add up everything else. Even if you try to penny pinch as much as you can in all the other areas too!

Shows how often instead of a newbie considering say an a7S as their first camera (not the OP... just giving an example!) should instead be going for a 2ndhand GH2 otherwise they'll run out of budget.

12 hours ago, Geoff CB said:

URSA pro is perfect if you don't underexpose. However I might consider the GH5 with a great lens set instead. I just wish the GH5 was super35.

Don't stress over sensor size, it doesn't really matter much overall so long as you have a matching lens kit for it that makes sense. 

I'd forget about 4K, and get yourself a Sony PMW-F3 and save yourself a TONNE OF MONEY in the process! :-D 

As $7K is a stupidly large amount of money to spend on a camera with no commercial return on it. 

I'd suggest around 3 minutes (no more than double that! MAX), and around three to six episodes. 

If you were to stretch my suggestion to the max, but still stay within my limits, that is 6x 6 minute episodes. 

That is THIRTY SIX MINUTES of content created. 

That takes an awful lot of time/money to do, for what purpose? Have a web series you created credited to your name, is a worthwhile trophy to have. But does the effort match the rewards? And what if you make an hour's worth of content?

Seriously, by that point in time you are much better off to have put your efforts/goodwill/monies into making a feature film instead! Which gets greater recognition, and has more commercial potential. 

Here is a web series I did sound for, that just got uploaded a few days ago:

Each episode is only around 4 minutes long, and there are only three episodes in total. 

You know to load/unload the slog firmware from an F3 requires a pincode? And in the process it removes the firmware update from the camera.

Matt Price / Sound Rolling is my top recommendation:
https://www.youtube.com/user/ThatWasSound

The reason why? He is the *only* professional sound recordist on YouTub who is putting out regular and informative content in this niche!! (every other channel in this subject niche is either a brand instead, or a retail store, or a non-specialist)

One last recommendation, and this one is ever so slightly biased.... *me*:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCniNTuAtkFiSCQNfIaw9SJw

Although I have only a tiny tiny fraction of the amount of content that Matt Price has! Plus I haven't been doing it for anywhere near as long as he has. 

Last weekend in a single evening I did a skit/advert film (vblog coming soon!) where I did all of camera + lighting + sound all by myself! & the director was also the actor, BOTH actors! :-o He even did a fight scene with himself.

4 hours ago, Don Kotlos said:

I have compared the RM222 with the new DR100mkIII (amps at least equal or better to DR70D https://transom.org/2016/tascam-dr-100mkii-2/) and I found them about the same. Maybe the RM222 was even a tiny bit less noisy. Given that in the previous link the noise levels of the Beachtek Pro is about the same as RM222, if I just needed a compact amp I would get that and not think about it   .

 

4 hours ago, Arikhan said:

Tomorrow I will visit the audio guys and take a closer look (and get a little bit of audio education)  at the DR-70D vs Zoom F4 for my humble RECORDER needs.

When the DR70D is also so compact, and these other options don't have a better pre-amp (as Don has just pointed out), then I don't see the point in spending extra money to buy one of these pre amps plus a DR70D.

7 hours ago, Arikhan said:

Sorry....I meant the Zoom F4 and not the H4...Absolutely your recommendation.

Good! :-)

7 hours ago, Arikhan said:

PLEASE CONSIDER: The DR-70D / Zoom F4 are too big for use them on a quick (handheld) shot, only as preamp...That's why I'd like to buy some kind of a "mini preamp" (NO need to record for this device, only preamp needed) - quick handheld shots...

Even the DR60Dmk2 or MixPre3 is too big?! The likes of the Beachtek is hardly much smaller if at all!

3 hours ago, Arikhan said:

@IronFilm

Please consider, English in not my first language, so there are times I can not exactly explain my needs (lack of proper terminology, etc.)...Yesterday I just visited a German audio recording studio, asking for advice. As the guys hadn't too much time yesterday, I resolved only one of my two problems: The need for an external preamp to bypass DSLRs internal preamp.

First problem: Which preamp to buy and use?
So the guys do advisory for more Run & Gun type shooters and they recommended me, to buy and use the Beachtek DXA-MICRO PRO Audio Adapter. They say, it's best bang for the buck, when recording audio in the camera. And that's what I need it for: a small, portable device (usable for mobile shooting / one man band scenario), helping to improve my sound quality. I had one DSLR with me, and they demonstrated immediately a BIG difference (using external Beachtek preamp vs. using camera preamp) in sound quality. For a newbie like me, it was quite impressive...Though they said, it might exist some cameras, where the difference might be not be such obvious....

What camera were they demonstrating with? As yeah, some are really bad. 

Anyway, don't bother with one of those under camera pre amps like the Beachtek. I reckon the price of them is so "high" (well, they're not, but relatively speaking....) and the DR60Dmk2/DR70D is so dirt dirt CHEAP, that you're better off getting that instead! :-D

As yes, you can just use those Tascams exactly the same way, not even recording with them, but just for their "good" (relatively speaking, certainly good relative to Beachtek!) pre amps and mixing functions to feed into your camera (which will have auto gain turned off, and manual gain turned way down).

3 hours ago, Arikhan said:

Second problem: Which recorder?
So now I will write down my use cases and requirements and will get in the next days the occasion to walk in their studio and hear and discuss the buy of an recorder. As you've recommended, I suggested the choice between DR-70D and Zoom H4...

Nooooooooo..... Not the Zoom H4! Not the H4n either. As for the H4n Pro? Meh. 

Tascam DR60Dmk2 or Tascam DR70D or Zoom F4 is the three I recommend you look at the most closely. And which one you go for just depends entirely on your budget/needs/want.

3 hours ago, Arikhan said:

..The guys are quite experienced and helpful, so I hope to get a clear view on a comparative view of facts...

Was this a retail store? My experience with retail store workers at camera or audio stores has generally always been they have very very very very very very very poor knowledge about the products. 

Or was this a recording studio such as for music and such? Then their experiences are totally different to your needs! It is like asking a swimmer what bicycle should you buy to race on the track. 

2 hours ago, Bioskop.Inc said:

But as has been said above, don't use this forum as a measure - you'll notice very few people replied to the OP.

 

Like all the threads in this forum, we get sidetracked easily! ;-) 

24 minutes ago, Ty Harper said:

Yes definitely the 744! And as I said, more expensive, but from a tried, tested and true company when it comes to sound quality. 

 

That is around double the price, and is less easy to use than an F4 (or F8) & is less inputs. You really need to pair it with a mixer front end, which further drives up the cost and weight.

24 minutes ago, Ty Harper said:

Also, I've had no issues with hostility at all (been scouring these internets for over a decade now), mostly because I was always mindful of other people's time, and comfortable just digging and researching and comparing on my own mostly.

Yeah I'm pretty calm and chill, is water off a duck's back for me.
But the hostility (to n00bs) on pro location sound forums is quite unlike other forums, and it also means you're not likely to get constructive answers instead of just flaming. 

24 minutes ago, Ty Harper said:

the search engine should probably be every person's first option. 

I love google! :-D

7 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Neumann is 699euros and Audix 599 in Europe. For that price I would choose Neumann any time. For 499$ (which is the US price for the Audix) I would choose Audix over any other mic (e.g AT). For less I am very pleased with my Oktava, mounted on a blimp has no handling noises.

 

Agreed. Except, why have you put an Oktava in blimp? Its best usage is usually indoors. What kind of windy indoor location are you using? :-o

Personally I use my Oktava MK012 HC with this (plus just a small foam softie):
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/554999-REG/Rycote_041107_INV_7_InVision_Indoor_Microphone.html

7 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Sound Devices is doing an opening to the masses recently, both in sound AND image, just do not expect Zaxcom to follow soon.

True true, I reckon their range PIX-E5 etc camera recorders helped further bring 4K recording to the masses as is kinda similar priced to Atomos ones. (PIX-E5 is still the the smallest 4K recorder/monitor on the market!)

7 hours ago, Kisaha said:

I am getting the Mixpre6 soon, but I will keep DR680 and DR100mkII as back ups, or specialized jobs.

Not the F4?? (or F8?)

Until someone makes a 3.5mm TC (or BNC) to HDMI adapter cable/box then the MixPre6 has zero appeal to me. (and even then, I'd still not bother as being an existing owner of an F4 it would be a mostly sideways movement for me. I'd rather move on up! To a 633, or even 688. Or from one of the other big competitors like a Zaxcom Nomad 12 or Sonosax SX-R4+)

7 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Tascam on the other side will follow soon, it is not too late for them. I can see a 701 reduction in price and something similar to F4 really soon (in Tascam time!).

Yes, out of all the other companies who might respond to the F4/F8/MixPre6, I think Tascam is the most likely one. But also, it wouldn't be surprising to me if they don't. Could go either way.

1 hour ago, Ty Harper said:

I was skeptical about the Zoom F4 and F8 at first but I've heard nothing but great things about it lately.

I was quite skeptical beforehand too, also had never been a great fan of any Zoom product beforehand (didn't help either I'd just got a Tascam DR680 just before the F8 came out!).
 

1 hour ago, Ty Harper said:

But they're obviously pointless to compare to anything other than other multi-track recorders like the Sound Devices stuff.  Also at the price they're going for right now, I'd just pay extra for a used Sound Devices recorder.

What used Sound Devices gear??? 
You either need to go for something very old like a 744 or 552 (and you'd still be buy double or triple what a F8 is! And even more than an F4). 
If you're looking at something more modern like a 688 or 633, they're almost impossible to find easily secondhand, and when they do appear they disappear very quickly and only at a very small discount to buying new (thus you're still spending thousands more than an F8 would cost). 

If Sound Devices depreciated at the same rate as used cameras, and had as many easily to be found on the secondhand market as there are cameras, then I'd agree it makes sense to go secondhand for a Sound Devices.

1 hour ago, Ty Harper said:

 

I'm also hoping people aren't using audio opinions/recommendations from his forum as their primary gauge of what type of portable recorder to buy. That would be as troubling as getting video camera recommends solely from people on Gearslutz. There are sooo many great audio forums out there with amazing tests, comparisons and advice from career people who live, eat, sh*t audio and nothing else

Actually their are not heaps and heaps of great audio forums out there when it comes to location sound recordist's needs. 

Those general audio forums have users whose needs and wants are so far off the mark from what a location sound recordist experiences that getting advice from there can be just as bad as getting it from video forums!! But yes, you can find useful info their if you remember they're seeing (hearing!) things from a totally different perspective than yourself! Thus take everything they say with one big grain of salt! Even so, I enjoy reading them and hanging out there for what crumbs of relevant info you can pick up.

However in the end, jwsoundgroup is the *ONLY* forum dedicated to location sound recordist (since my shift in focus to sound, I now spend more time there than on EOSHD! Sorry :-/ ). But the environment there to newbie/hobbyist sound recordists is very hostile. A thread like this about DR70D vs H5 would run a high risk of just being mercilessly ripped into.

So in the end, the amount of info there is for the newbie/hobbyist/semi-pro location sound recordist is somewhat limited and scattered (one of the reasons why I started up my youtube channel to vblog on this topic, to encourage more discussion of it, and help further spread more good info on this).

The big question we have however, is this the new norm or will we be returning to the average.

So will the hectic pace of the last couple of years keep up and will it spread to other areas in location audio?

I suspect the answer is probably no and no. :-/ Sadly. 

Because it really is just in recorders that we've seen so much progress in the low end over the last couple of years. 

But in other areas such as microphones / boom poles / cables / wireless / shock mounts / blimps / etc... technology is moving forward relatively slowly and prices are not coming down radically. (although yes, progress is still happen, look at the new Rycote Cyclone!!). With one key exception: time code boxes, we've also seen some breathtaking advances here over the last couple of years or so.

Now, with recorders, the questions are:

1) are we going to see Tascam / Roland / Behringer (???) / someone else / etc respond with a product of their own?
Unlikely, I wouldn't hold your breath (although I heard rumors Tascam is developing something. And who knows if some wildcard might come in and surprise us!).

2) Will Zoom or Sound Devices release another sub $1K device soon? 
Very doubtful. Sound Devices certainly will not within the next half decade or so, probably even longer. I wasn't expecting the Zoom F4 from Zoom so quickly after the F8, maybe they'll surprise me again?

Personally I'd  rather see Zoom concentrate on improving their little family of recorders they now have of the F4/F8, plenty of firmware updates they could still bring to them. And just generally make the ecosystem around them work better together with the F4/F8. For instance they need to update their Zoom EXH-6 accessory. And work with other companies such as Movie Slate / Time Code Systems to get integration with their products (like Sound Devices has done). Plus releasing a superslot equivalent would be cool too! 

3) Will Zaxcom / Sonosax / Aaton / etc be releasing a sub $1K recorder/mixer as well?
I'd say the odds respectively are: very very unlikely, very very very very very unlikely, and next to impossible. 
Was a massive surprise when Sound Devices did it! Very strongly doubt any of those other similar tier brands will be following along and doing it themselves as well. But who knows, never say never?

So what will be seeing in the future as technology moves forward? Here is my optimistic expectations for happening within the next five years:

We'll see more technology integrated into smaller packages. For example, we had automixing included in the 688, then there was the big update for the 633 when it got Dugan too! :-o Maybe sometime in the coming years there will be a firmware update for the F8 which has this too? One can wish and hope! Another possible example is the amazing new product at NAB this year, the CEDAR DNS2!! Will this also get included into recorders/mixers too just like Dugan has been too? Doubt it will happen soon, not even in the next release of 600 series from Sound Series, but hey maybe in the next generation after that?

16 hours ago, Damphousse said:

I don't think the Zoom F4 is a bad choice.  I didn't mean to denigrate it.  I was just pushing back at the notion it was something you would buy and keep for 12 years.  I've only looked at sound equipment in depth in the last couple of years and the number of features and options has steadily climbed and the price at least on the low/mid end has fallen.

Generally speaking audio gear has been moving forward at a slower pace relatively speaking. 

Microphones lasting for decades? (it isn't unusual for people to still be using daily microphones from the 1980's, or even 1970's. Even 1960's microphones get used on occasion) 
Mixers lasting a decade or two. 
Recorders lasting a decade or more. 

To give a personal example, my Sound Devices 552 came out 8 yrs ago (it was revolutionary for its time! First ever mixer with a recorder built in), could I see myself still using it in another 4yrs? Yup, I certainly could see it still getting use now and then. 

Or consider my Lectrosonics (which I'm upgrading to from my much newer Sony UWP-D11 models), they're mostly from the 1990's or 2000's! Yet they're still some of the very best wireless (the biggest ways they're lacking from the latest most expensive gear, is when it comes to size / features / power usage)

But still, yes technology does keep on marching forward. I feel when Sound Devices entered the market in the 1990's the did a lot to push things forward and push prices down, especially recently with their 600 series. And in particular their 633, which was groundbreaking for its (relatively) low price and very tiny size yet had so much packed into it! 

However it is the last couple of years which have been breathtaking for folks like ourselves on the lower end, with the release of the Zoom F8 and then the F4. Then two years after the F8 we see Sound Devices respond with their MixPre3/MixPre6 which are kinda sort of similar ish but at least also at a rather low low price too.

3 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Neumann KM185 is a good, cheaper, indoors mic, the Audix of Europe probably.

Is it that cheap over in Europe? I tent to browse USA stores mostly. 
I'd certainly go for the KM185 then as a mid range mic? If you can get a good price on it. 

3 hours ago, Kisaha said:

What DPA mics by the way? It would be nice for the people here to hear for a brand probably know nothing about.

 

DPA 4061, six of them. 

13 hours ago, Damphousse said:

I don't think the Zoom F4 is a bad choice.  I didn't mean to denigrate it.  I was just pushing back at the notion it was something you would buy and keep for 12 years. 

I think maaaaybe Kisaha exaggerated a little in saying twelve years.
But if you say half that? Yeah, six years is very reasonable.
And for some of us? Yup, could be 12yrs! I could certainly see myself still keeping around my Zoom F4 in 12yrs time. Not as my main one of course! (but at my back up to my back up, or as a freebie rental to hand out to upcoming students)

12 hours ago, Damphousse said:

I agree with you on all that.  I think his point on the Zoom H1 was the size thing.  You can put a lav on it and drop it in the talents pocket.  So it was just a specific niche use.  That was my understanding. And I agree his channel is for the lower end videographer.  It is not oriented to a sound recordist.  I wouldn't even begin to comment on professional sound recordist equipment.

My point is even for that niche (small, used with a lav & on a very tight budget) the Zoom H1 is not a good recommendation. The Tascam DR10 is.

12 hours ago, OliKMIA said:

Still running on a Galaxy S4 which is more than enough for internet browsing, email and a few apps. Plus I can change the battery easily.

Wish I had an S4! I'm still using a Samsung J2! Ha

I'm using it for my casual vBlogging, but honestly a potato would do better at filming me than the J2's camera!!

1 hour ago, DBounce said:

Who is excited for the new iPhone?

Not me.