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News round-up including a look at the 70D's image quality

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[media]http://vimeo.com/71179151[/media]

It's been a busy weekend in the DSLR community, so here's a round-up of a bunch of the more significant news. The Canon 70D is to be released in August and represents the first proper revamp of the Canon APS-C line since 2009's Canon 7D. Canon make grand claims over the new video and live-view optimised AF system but is the new sensor able to deliver the goods when it comes to image quality?

[url=http://www.eoshd.com/content/10884/news-round-up-including-a-look-at-the-70ds-image-quality]Read the full article here[/url]

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Do we know what the RAW capability is at this juncture?

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Honestly im not even mad at canon, just confused. Do they not want to make money? It seems like they dont. Really confusing behavior

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Looks like it may be based on the same basic sensor technology at the 7D, except that they've added Dual Pixel AF.  I guess they are hoping this will buy them a few more years until the next upgrade.  There is even a FF mule out there with the same AF technology.  It is looking less and less like the 7D replacement will see any significant improvement in video or RAW.

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Do we know what the RAW capability is at this juncture?

 

Specifically, nobody can say but it is likely not going to be very good. If the sensor cannot scale to a clean 1080p output then raw won't solve the moire & aliasing issue. The SD card slot is not likely to be fast enough for 1080p raw either.

 

5D Mark III still a league of 1.

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Sorry, in order to match the MOVI "blow for blow", it needs to be for sale. I've been waiting in vain for someone to make a comparable unit that is for sale outright. Everything out there right now is too small and wouldn't take the payload of a full DSLR+anamorphic setup.

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Maybe my standards are too low, but I couldn't see anything wrong in these shots (I watched it on vimeo, but didn't download the MP4). Are the issues he's talking about in these shots, or did they get cut? He says he added sharpness in post, but doesn't say anything about noise reduction, or having to abandon shots due to moire.

 

With the NEX 6 video he did, he did a separate out-take video with notes in the comments showing the aliasing he was talking about: https://vimeo.com/53577244

 

Perhaps there'll be an out-take reel for the 70D too...

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You can't tell much without bothering to download the full 1080p file and viewing it on a 1080p display.

 

70D is fine for embedded web videos with high compression and low resolution.

 

But it is competing in a market where people demand more than that.

 

It is quite high up in the Canon range and already a lot of filmmakers use the 60D. They will now likely switch to another brand like Panasonic who are offering a better image for less money with the G6, not to mention more / better features. 1080/60p being just one of many.

 

And yes the NEX 6's output is bloody ugly too.

 

Johnnie doesn't set out to make it look bad. In hands of most consumers it will look far worse than what is being presented here.

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Hi there,

 

I see some of you more "seasoned" people seems to have issue with the 70d

 

I was ready to purchase the 60d then the 70 came out and thought it would be the better choice. However, after seeing you guys bash it a bit, I am torn.

 

Can someone explain the gripes?

 

thanks,

 

K

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I don't think 'bashing' is the correct word, it's an objective evaluation of the facts. Image quality in video mode is poor compared to other cameras, similar to how the 60D is also short of cameras like the GH3 and 5D Mark III. If you are going to lay down quite a lot of money for a 70D, consider other options first.

 

Johnnie already explains the specific problems. Mushy detail, noise, moire & aliasing.

Xiong likes this

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I saw plenty of aliasing throughout, and a bit of noisy shadows

Maybe my standards are too low, but I couldn't see anything wrong in these shots (I watched it on vimeo, but didn't download the MP4). Are the issues he's talking about in these shots, or did they get cut? 

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Maybe my standards are too low, but I couldn't see anything wrong in these shots (I watched it on vimeo, but didn't download the MP4). Are the issues he's talking about in these shots, or did they get cut? He says he added sharpness in post, but doesn't say anything about noise reduction, or having to abandon shots due to moire.

 

With the NEX 6 video he did, he did a separate out-take video with notes in the comments showing the aliasing he was talking about: https://vimeo.com/53577244

 

Perhaps there'll be an out-take reel for the 70D too...

Tons of aliasing on wide shot at 03:05 (70D video)

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Well, i have the D7100 for a couple of months and honestly it's very awesome APS-C sensor cam. Unless you really want the detail of a Gh2 o 3. The D5200 and D7100 are a good fight to canon (without the raw)

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Bashing probably wasn't the best adjective to use in my post.

I looked up the GH3 on eoshd.com, it seems like it surpasses the 60d on many levels.

Perhaps my next question seems uninformed but, I am just that so please have patience.

 

The 60D seemed suited for being a good BEGGINER prosumer purchase and well equipped to produce quality films without needing many accessories. I think I read something about the audio quality being high and the ability to hook up microphones were a synch.

I hope to film a series of training videos of policies and procedures at a fire department. I have seen other websites ( like this one)

 

http://snapsort.com/compare/Canon_EOS_60D-vs-Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-GH3

 

 

 that rate the 60D higher than the GH3. Just so I am clear that is not something many of you would agree with?

 

 

EDIT

two questions if you will...

 

What is the big deal about "black magic" cameras?

 

Can someone help me understand the sensor size difference in what it relates to filming? I believe the Panasonic is 4:3 and the cannon an aps-c sensor.

 

 

thanks,

K

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personally I love the look of the hasselblad rebranded rx100.  shame they didnt do it to the new model though.  If they included a pair of viewfinders (both an optical and an electronic), I think the price would be justified.  Not being the son of an oil baron makes this something I couldn't justify.  - especially as for the same price you can get a set of 3 hasselblad zeiss 2.8's which will never go out of date or lose their value

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Bashing probably wasn't the best adjective to use in my post.

I looked up the GH3 on eoshd.com, it seems like it surpasses the 60d on many levels.

Perhaps my next question seems uninformed but, I am just that so please have patience.

 

The 60D seemed suited for being a good BEGGINER prosumer purchase and well equipped to produce quality films without needing many accessories. I think I read something about the audio quality being high and the ability to hook up microphones were a synch.

I hope to film a series of training videos of policies and procedures at a fire department. I have seen other websites ( like this one)

 

http://snapsort.com/compare/Canon_EOS_60D-vs-Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-GH3

 

 

 that rate the 60D higher than the GH3. Just so I am clear that is not something many of you would agree with?

 

 

EDIT

two questions if you will...

 

What is the big deal about "black magic" cameras?

 

Can someone help me understand the sensor size difference in what it relates to filming? I believe the Panasonic is 4:3 and the cannon an aps-c sensor.

 

 

thanks,

K

It doesn't sound like your usage will be terribly critical in terms of image quality, to be honest. Also, you should take into consideration what lenses you have (if you already own any, that is).

 

I have to say I have not followed the 60D, so I don't know what the Magic Lantern hack enables (if anything) on it, but if you are looking at in-camera video with audio embedded, the GH3 is very strong out of the box. It also supports 60p in 1920x1080 resolution, which may be useful in training videos as it allows you to slow down the motion. Even IF the 60D has capability for raw through a hack, it is more complicated to work with as it does not allow for audio. 60D probably gives better quality photos, and somewhat better low light capability due to larger sensor.

 

Regarding audio, keep in mind that the GH3 has a headphone jack which means easy monitoring straight out of the cam, which the 60D does not have. The built in mic on the gh3 is ok, but you can easily add a good mic to it as it has mic input, and so has the 60D.

 

Another point to keep in mind, if you need to move around a lot, carrying the camera, the GH3 w/lens will be lighter and smaller.

 

I personally think the GH3 is far superior overall when speaking strictly about video (w/audio). However if you are willing to tinker and have a more cumbersome workflow, it may be possible to get quality that surpasses it with a hacked 60D (but again, don't know enough about magic lantern for the 60D).

 

Regarding the Black Magic Design Cameras, they are all better than either the GH3 or the 60D in video quality out of the box, but really consider those strictly for video. The caveat here is, based on your post, I take it you may not be used to manual focusing(I'm still learning). If that is the case, some of the BMD's only do manual focus, while the new BMPCC camera (that is not out yet..) is supposed to have at least some crude AF.

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I don't see much value in buying anything between the t3i/GH2 and the 5D3. Either you go cheap or you go big, there's really no advantage gained between those that I can see. If you go with the GH2 option just use the kit zooms and driftwood hack and forget about being neurotic about image quality. You don't want to buy micro 4/3rds lenses when their future is as limited as it is. With the Rebel option, you can continue to use your EF mount lenses, the full-frame ones on the 5D3 and up DSLRs, and the EF-S APS-C ones on the C100 and up should you go that route.

 

The Blackmagic cameras have the best onboard codec options and much better color than the Panasonics, but don't have nearly the low-light and shallow depth of field of the Canons. The extant Blackmagics all suffer from noise and moire because of sensor limitations. You can get external recorders such as the Atomos Ninja 2 to provide the best ProRes 422 HQ codec to the 5D3 or C100 along with a helpful peaking monitor, or use the RAW hack on the 5D3 with a stack of fast cards and an offloading computer for similar expense. The C100 has the best ergonomic setup available for under $10K RTS. The 5D3 is the best all-around dual-use with stills shooting and every lens you buy for it will have a future for you. But if you are budget-constrained and still learning video, image quality is just one thing on a list of over a hundred you have to learn, and at the end of that learning, you will see things this way (and probably rent your cameras appropriate for each job instead of sinking money into something obsoleted in a year...especially now on the cusp of the 4K transition).

 

As for the 70D, it's just a technology demo of the dual-pixel AF system, it will eventually be placed in better cameras including I'm sure a future ENG-style shoulder mount camera also with a power zoom system. It is a prosumer camera for people used to using cellphones with tap-to-focus. I'm not surprised the IQ sucks...you don't need AF for filmmaking (though it is nice to have at times) so just get the Rebel. Same optics as the 7D, cheap loupes available, small and light for steadicam work with its kit lens...

 

Speaking of which I've tried the Movi and it works very nicely, hope the knockoffs (incl. the one in the article) work that well...glad I didn't spring for a fancy steadicam rig before this. Again the middle options may not be worth considering...rent the real thing (and an operator!) or get by with a $200 steadicam and make-it-work may be the only sensible choices.

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Bashing probably wasn't the best adjective to use in my post.

I looked up the GH3 on eoshd.com, it seems like it surpasses the 60d on many levels.

Perhaps my next question seems uninformed but, I am just that so please have patience.

 

The 60D seemed suited for being a good BEGGINER prosumer purchase and well equipped to produce quality films without needing many accessories. I think I read something about the audio quality being high and the ability to hook up microphones were a synch.

I hope to film a series of training videos of policies and procedures at a fire department. I have seen other websites ( like this one)

 

http://snapsort.com/compare/Canon_EOS_60D-vs-Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-GH3

 

 

 that rate the 60D higher than the GH3. Just so I am clear that is not something many of you would agree with?

 

 

EDIT

two questions if you will...

 

What is the big deal about "black magic" cameras?

 

Can someone help me understand the sensor size difference in what it relates to filming? I believe the Panasonic is 4:3 and the cannon an aps-c sensor.

 

 

thanks,

K

 

Some really sound advice from tosvus:

 

It doesn't sound like your usage will be terribly critical in terms of image quality, to be honest. Also, you should take into consideration what lenses you have (if you already own any, that is).

 

I have to say I have not followed the 60D, so I don't know what the Magic Lantern hack enables (if anything) on it, but if you are looking at in-camera video with audio embedded, the GH3 is very strong out of the box. It also supports 60p in 1920x1080 resolution, which may be useful in training videos as it allows you to slow down the motion. Even IF the 60D has capability for raw through a hack, it is more complicated to work with as it does not allow for audio. 60D probably gives better quality photos, and somewhat better low light capability due to larger sensor.

 

Regarding audio, keep in mind that the GH3 has a headphone jack which means easy monitoring straight out of the cam, which the 60D does not have. The built in mic on the gh3 is ok, but you can easily add a good mic to it as it has mic input, and so has the 60D.

 

Another point to keep in mind, if you need to move around a lot, carrying the camera, the GH3 w/lens will be lighter and smaller.

 

I personally think the GH3 is far superior overall when speaking strictly about video (w/audio). However if you are willing to tinker and have a more cumbersome workflow, it may be possible to get quality that surpasses it with a hacked 60D (but again, don't know enough about magic lantern for the 60D).

 

Regarding the Black Magic Design Cameras, they are all better than either the GH3 or the 60D in video quality out of the box, but really consider those strictly for video. The caveat here is, based on your post, I take it you may not be used to manual focusing(I'm still learning). If that is the case, some of the BMD's only do manual focus, while the new BMPCC camera (that is not out yet..) is supposed to have at least some crude AF.

----------

You also have to take into affect that if you are going for Black Magic Cinema Camera that you'll have to get used to other caviats: SSD, RAW/Proress workflow in post, and you wont be able to deleted captured media via the BMCC, You'll have to do that with a pc. If you're just starting out dont go full BMCC unless you have the time and patience for it. If you dont have any eperience at all then get a t3i or GH2/G6 depending on the glass you want to get, these are reletively cheap now. I mean there's no reason to go full out if you dont really have experience as it can be overwhelming. Then later if you want raw you can get the Black Magic Pocket Cinema.

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Seriously, with this 70D just God knows what canon is thinking. I know they are working on their super low light camera and their 70 Megapixel sensor, would we see those in 2014? I don't think so. Until something really good happens I going to be playing a song with the smallest violin on the world.  

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Canon 70D, just another Canon Mush-o-Vision camera. :huh:  :angry: :angry:
It always surprise me how many hopeless 7D lovers still believe in some change after so many years of zero improvement in APS-C sector. Canon just dont give a f... to their video fans and users, and for very long time. Do you want a better video pic, just buy 5D3 or C100, thats how they think. This mushy video is more than good for you, we know better then you.

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Just my two cents: roundup posts are not very useful for comment threads because people are all over the place, discussing everything. Why not break this up into four posts so we can talk about what matters (cheaper gyro stabilizers) and not what doesn't (another DOA Canon HDSLR).

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The demo of the autofocus on the 70D I've seen looks really good, but I was expecting more from the image quality.  I'll be hanging on to my GH2 awhile longer, thanks Canon.

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http://snapsort.com/compare/Canon_EOS_60D-vs-Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-GH3

 that rate the 60D higher than the GH3. Just so I am clear that is not something many of you would agree with?

 

 

This is a filmmaking forum. Many cameras like the 60D do both stills and photography. We are primarily interested in how well a camera system works for shooting video. Stills are fairly irreverent around here.

 

Here's the bottom-line if you want to get into video production and are choosing a camera system: the investment comes after the camera body purchase. If you go with 60d/70d, you are going to begin investing in Canon glass. If you go with GH3 or BMPCC (pocket camera), you are going to start buying mFT glass. If you go with Nikon, etc...

 

With the advance in tech, we are all tossing our camera bodies every 18 months to buy the new latest-and-greatest. However, our lens set becomes our old friends for years to come. 

 

If you want to get started in video production, you can't go wrong buying a used t2i/t3i/t4i/60d/7d -- and throwing a 50mm f1.8 on the front and going nuts. I shot money-making jobs with this combo for more than a year when I started.

 

If you want to buy new -- you have a handful of good options, but for the dedicated filmmaker -- you want the GH3 or the BMPCC. Why? Beyond the stellar image quality for the price -- they are the only bodies in the price range to include a headphone jack.

 

If you want a new camera today, get the GH3 -- without question.

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I have never read such an ill conceived comparison as that Snapsort one.

 

60D has built in auto-focus motor? No Snapsort... try the Nikon equivalent.

 

They list flip out screen on 60D an advantage over GH3, whilst both have them.

 

"Great battery life" on 60D applies to stills only with the LCD turned off. GH3 has the better battery life for video and live-view shooting.

 

They say the 60D has faster autofocus. Ha. Try AF in video / live-view on that vs GH3. I'll think you'll find it is 5 seconds worth of hunting around vs 0.2sec.

 

Another gem... 60D has apparently "much more lenses available". Nope. The GH3 has more if you count adapters. The mount is much more flexible and can take more lenses.

 

Then under GH3 advantages they claim 60D has no image stabilisation. WTF? Never heard of Canon IS lenses?

 

They list 18 advantages to the GH3 and only 9 for the 60D and claim the GH3 has better image quality and more dynamic range, but yet rate the 60D at 89 and the GH3 at 49 and claim the 60D wins.

 

This is what happens when you get reviewers plucking stats from the internet without having ever touched a camera.

 

So yeah... Panasonic have their work cut out it seems. Half the world are this ignorant as well.

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Take a look at this - http://snapsort.com/compare/Canon_EOS_60D-vs-Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-GH3/score

 

They have weighted camera popularity as 100 in the points scheme. Insane.

 

Thus 60D scores 90 and GH3 just 5 for that, whilst image quality (based on DXOMark which only measures the sensor and not video or image processing) is weighted far less at 45.

 

Had the 60D not been handed that 90 for simply being a Canon, the GH3 would have won on the final tally 96.4 to 83.2 and that is not even taking video into account which is vastly better featured and better quality on the Panasonic.

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