Camera prices – Have the Japanese taken leave of their senses?

[BTM_Pix]

21 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

At what point does the line get crossed for you guys, when will you stop buying?

The line was absolutely leapt over for me when we started to see £1500+ MFT bodies.

I haven’t bought anything new since 2019 and even then it was because I was developing products that necessitated it.

Obviously, I’m an addict, so I’ve bought other cameras since but they’ve all been used ones and if I was to buy a new one again then I would be fishing in shallower waters where there is some great value like the X-M5 and Z50ii.

I am definitely getting a used Z8 in the winter as it’s as peak camera as I would need and is also peak price as I’d be prepared to pay these days.

And at the point at which I buy it, then it will only have taken me two years and a half years to finally pull the trigger.

For someone with the impulse control of Jim from American Pie, I’m counting that as progress.

[PannySVHS]

Lumix S line prices are rising again on the used market. Vintage and quirky Mft cameras too. I got an orange GM5 with a 12-32 lens and two batteries for a good price two years ago, with the box, everything in great condition except the leather case. They cost up to three times as much now of what I paid two years ago! Here it is, a flimsy beauty, a tiny S9 minus 4K 10bit, but with evf, mechanical shutter and hotshoe:)

[Davide DB]

1 hour ago, Geoff_L said:

Yes but not to that point where we are at now, right? I'm looking to buy a car right now, and I've read several times on a french reddit sub dedicated to cars, stories of people selling their cars several thousands € more than the price they paid for it 2 or 3 years ago. The used market is absolutely crazy.

I've just sold my 2016 Nissan at the same price it was in 2020.

[MrSMW]

22 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

At what point does the line get crossed for you guys, when will you stop buying?

Pretty much did a few years back…

The most recent new purchase I made was an S5ii on launch because I wanted to start my season as I intended/hoped to go, but otherwise everything I have purchased in recent years including; 2x S1R, 2 more S5ii, S9, A7RV has been used.

Tell a lie, it was a Nikon Zf when it first came out as I was off on a trip and wanted it in time. Then I sold it. Then I bought another which was new but on a very limited time special offer.

I know some stuff holds its value pretty well but used L Mount bodies are a bit of a steal. If you don’t need great AF or the ability to burn in a LUT or open gate, then used first gen full-frame Lumix are exceptional value.

As for cars, bought our Skoda Octavia Scout estate for £8000 at least 11 if not 12 years back and even if we only got £2k trade in on it, in terms of depreciation costs, £500 per annum.

Plenty of folks spend that per month on new cars.

No mortgage, no car finance, no credit cards, mostly buy camera gear used and that’s as a business user.

[EduPortas]

9 hours ago, Tim Sewell said:

I'd love to see a digital Canonet!

Oh you better believe it's coming, Canon would be foolhardy to leave a ton of cash on the table.

As always, they'll let other manufacturers take the risk with their products and test if their is a market for it.

Only then will they'll release a camera and gobble up the lion's share of it.

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

20 hours ago, akasian said:

Seems like Nikon is the only one selling reasonably priced gear right now.

In fact, the Z5 II is VERY well priced. It made Nikon take the lead in FF sales in Japan for the 1st time in years.

[ND64]

1 hour ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

In fact, the Z5 II is VERY well priced. It made Nikon take the lead in FF sales in Japan for the 1st time in years.

What's interesting about Japanese market, which by no means representing the global market tho, is not Nikon taking the lead, which is a sudden jump by a single product, but Sony's steady decline, despite all previous generation alpha cameras they were selling at lower prices.

 

 

[EduPortas]

10 hours ago, Davide DB said:

The Nauticam Sony Alpha 1 housing cost $4540 USD in July 2022, and its price remained pretty much unchanged until the Trump mess, when the price jumped to $5000 USD.

Woa, there goes my interest in subaquatic photography. 

A coupe of years ago I checked the Nauticam prices for my 7DM2. The gear costed more than my camera and lens!

[EduPortas]

9 hours ago, Phil A said:

If you compare what Canon L EF lenses did cost, I feel we moved a lot into way higher priced R-mount L lenses, Sony GM, etc. 

Those RF lenses are obscenely expensive. 

At this point they have become "man jewelry".

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

In fact, the Z5 II is VERY well priced. It made Nikon take the lead in FF sales in Japan for the 1st time in years

I began my pro career with Nikon and my education prior to that was with Nikon and I was with them in that regard from 1987-2011.

I am partially back with them now with the Zf and I think they are probably 1 camera away from me ending my career with them so will be watching out for the ZR with interest…

I’d like to see Nikon regain their former glory and they do seem heading back in the that direction after a few dodgy years when some folks were predicting their imminent demise.

[eatstoomuchjam]

1 hour ago, ND64 said:

What's interesting about Japanese market, which by no means representing the global market tho, is not Nikon taking the lead, which is a sudden jump by a single product, but Sony's steady decline, despite all previous generation alpha cameras they were selling at lower prices.

That is a bit interesting, but I'd also point out that Sony have not had a major new camera release in what seems like a very long time.  The A7R V is from 2022 and the A7S III is from 2020.  At some point, the majority of people who are going to buy a certain model of camera brand new already bought it.  Nikon, on the other hand, has released several exciting new cameras including the Z5 II which is "affordable" at under $2,000 and can do internal 4K raw.

I'm assuming that the sales chart is for sales of new cameras.  If it were for sales on the used market, there might be more of a Sony bias, given that those cameras have been on the market for a while.

I'd bet that if they announce a new A7S IV with similar performance/features, but at 6K or 8K, there would be a huge spike in new sales for Sony.

I could be wrong, though - to use this forum as a sample group, is anybody here, at this time, still waiting to buy any current Sony mirrorless camera brand new?

[ac6000cw]

15 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

I could be wrong, though - to use this forum as a sample group, is anybody here, at this time, still waiting to buy any current Sony mirrorless camera brand new?

Not me, but that's mostly because every time, over the years, I've considered buying one of their MILCs the cons have outweighed the pros (for my use cases).

So I've stayed completely with M43 cameras (mostly Panasonic) until very recently, when I bought an S9 as a smaller and lighter 'general use' alternative to my OM-1 and G9. I seriously considered an A6700 instead, partly because it has an EVF, but the better IBIS/stabilization of the S9 (and its recent heavy price reduction in the UK) swung it that way eventually.

I'm a 50fps shooter normally (not for slo-mo, to get less compromised motion handling), so I regard the S9 as basically an APS-C video camera, hence comparing it to the A6700. Fuji are ruled out for me as they don't support plug-in power for external mics, and AFAIK Canon and Nikon don't currently have anything in that size/shape with IBIS.

But I'm probably an outlier here, as I'm a 'video' person through and through, rather than a 'film' person 🙂.

[eatstoomuchjam]

29 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

Not me, but that's mostly because every time, over the years, I've considered buying one of their MILCs the cons have outweighed the pros (for my use cases).

Sure, and if they aren't releasing any new cameras, then that's unlikely to change.  The pros and cons will remain constant!  😅

[ac6000cw]

19 hours ago, ND64 said:

What's interesting about Japanese market, which by no means representing the global market tho, is not Nikon taking the lead, which is a sudden jump by a single product, but Sony's steady decline, despite all previous generation alpha cameras they were selling at lower prices.

A few interesting quotes from the BCN web page where the chart orrginates from (my bold):

Quote

As of April, full-frame mirrorless cameras account for 5.5% of the total camera market in terms of sales volume and 21.4% in terms of sales value. Among mirrorless cameras, which account for more than 90% of interchangeable lens cameras, full-frame mirrorless cameras account for 19.4% in terms of units and 33.4% in terms of value. The full-frame mirrorless market is characterized by the fact that the number of units is moderate but the value composition ratio is significantly higher due to the high unit price. Sales of integrated lens cameras are doing well due to the growing momentum of reconsidering compact cameras. However, interchangeable lens cameras are not growing. The biggest impact was the price increase implemented by Sony in August last year. In June and July before the price increase, there was a rush to buy. Purchases were concentrated especially around the α7C II. The year-on-year sales volume of full-frame mirrorless cameras as a whole was also greatly boosted. However, the situation suddenly slowed down in August. Since September, full-frame mirrorless sales have been significantly lower than the previous year.

Quote

Nikon's ability to capture the top market share is due in large part to these "opponents' mistakes." The average unit price of full-frame mirrorless cameras was becoming routinely over 300,000 yen. For the average user, this was a price range that was difficult to reach. Nikon's pricing strategy, which has managed to keep prices at that level and aim to get people to switch from smartphones to cameras, has so far been successful. 

Nikon is basically going for a 'pile it high and sell it cheap' strategy in the full-frame MILCs - but as the last to enter that market, they probably don't have much choice when up against Canon and Sony (Panasonic is almost a niche player but could easily suffer collateral damage from the battle).

[MrSMW]

19 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

is anybody here, at this time, still waiting to buy any current Sony mirrorless camera brand new?

Mostly nope.

Mostly because any ‘current’ model definitely not but interested to see what comes next, any time within the next up to 9 months max and how it compares and stacks up with whatever Nikon does next, especially this ‘ZR’.

Then the ‘mostly’ kicks in as in I may have to pay full retail if that is the only option prior to a new season starting for me in 2026.

I don’t need to do anything anymore re. kit and it has become a case of if I wish to with wishes being determined by what the future may bring…

[eatstoomuchjam]

14 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Mostly because any ‘current’ model definitely not but interested to see what comes next, any time within the next up to 9 months max and how it compares and stacks up with whatever Nikon does next, especially this ‘ZR’.

Oh yeah, but that's exactly the point I'm trying to make.  😅

Sony's sales are down right now because anybody who would consider buying one new did - unless someone else is paying for it, any savvy consumer right now is going to pick one up in excellent/like new condition (maybe even in the original box!) for a decent discount and only lose a portion of that new camera smell.

It'll take the release of a new model with compelling features to jazz their sales numbers.  Otherwise, Canon's riding the wave of a few compelling releases and Nikon, who was late to the game, has finally released a more budget-friendly line (relatively speaking, nearly $2,000 is hardly "budget" in any realistic terms).  Of course they're both moving a lot more new cameras right now.