hyalinejim Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 I'll try to upload a vid or frame grab maybe tomorrow. It's noticeable in areas of high contrast when there is a moderate degree of motion. Maybe it doesn't affect all units. If so, I would gladly return mine for repair / replacement. kidzrevil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidzrevil Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 7 hours ago, hyalinejim said: I'll try to upload a vid or frame grab maybe tomorrow. It's noticeable in areas of high contrast when there is a moderate degree of motion. Maybe it doesn't affect all units. If so, I would gladly return mine for repair / replacement. Hopefully you are right and its just a problem with certain units. If its something hardwired into the code thats gonna be an issue. im gonna run some tests to see if its the stabilizer causing these issues Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 On October 11, 2016 at 8:08 PM, hyalinejim said: Yes, I see it and it's not pretty! I noticed it first in HD (after firmware update) and to a lesser extent in 4K. Switching between IS modes makes no difference but it does increase with ISO. It makes HD footage unusable at 3200 if there's any movement of high contrast areas. The DV Info review points it out and theorises that the ghosting artifacts are due to an in-camera temporal noise reduction. The reviewer spotted it during a rolling shutter test: Now that I've seen it in my own footage I can't unsee it! It seems to even be present, but very subtly, at 500. Whack up the ISO a bit, zoom in on a contrasty line and wiggle the camera a bit. You'll see it too ? Now, I know the latest firmware "improved" high ISO performance in HD. But has it caused a worsening of ghosting? I took only a handful of shots before updating so I can't really check for sure. Of course, the sensible thing would be to have an option to disable all noise reduction but... it's Canon. What firmware are you on? When I bought mine back in July, BH accidentally sent me a return... That camera was on the original firmware, then the new, replacement they sent me was already updated at the factory. Did I miss a FW update? Have you tried going back to the original firmware to see if the ghosting appears? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyalinejim Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 On 14/10/2016 at 10:54 PM, kidzrevil said: I always catch it at high iso's 3200-4000 or at slow shutter speeds. On 14/10/2016 at 11:11 PM, mercer said: Gotcha. Then that's probably why I haven't seen it. I usually keep my ISO at 500 and use the 180 degree shutter. In this test, I've slowed the video down by 16x so we can see frame by frame what's going on. The settings are: CLog - 1/50s - f4.8 - ISO500 - all image stabilisation OFF - 4K I stuck a lut on it to bring back contrast. Ghosting is clearly visible as vertical traces - sometimes as many as two or three from previous frames. 18 hours ago, kidzrevil said: Hopefully you are right and its just a problem with certain units. If its something hardwired into the code thats gonna be an issue. im gonna run some tests to see if its the stabilizer causing these issues I don't think it's the stabiliser as the footage above shows. Maybe it is certain units or maybe it is firmware. 18 hours ago, mercer said: What firmware are you on? ... Have you tried going back to the original firmware to see if the ghosting appears? My camera came with the stock firmware and I updated it to 1.0.2.0. I don't know where you might find the original, or if it's even possible to revert to it. Can you do a test similar to above to see if your unit exhibits the same problem? It's most noticeable when a dark area is moving into midtones. In other news Canon sent me this, so if you guys report the same issue to them they might get on the case and actually do something: Quote Thank you for your email and for taking the time and effort to write to us with your suggestion and feedback. We have recorded your comments in our system and have passed them on to the correct department so that they can be reviewed and actioned upon. We, at Canon, really appreciate customer feedback as this is the best way to improve our service and products.Once again, thank you for your comments and loyalty to our brand. TLDR: XC10 has ghosting at all ISOs and it has nothing to do with image stabilisation. kidzrevil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmcindie Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Looks like temporal noise reduction. It tends to create those artifacts. A lot of cameras have those turned on, for example the a7s and the a6300 turns those heavily on after the ISO goes up but they are still there with lower iso's too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidzrevil Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 @hyalinejim and it gets extremely exaggerated at high iso's. Maybe the only way to combat it is high shutter speeds? Idk but it sucks this camera repeats frames. Guess its something we are just going to have to live with for now. Any other issues with the image processing? @hmcindie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 4 hours ago, hyalinejim said: In this test, I've slowed the video down by 16x so we can see frame by frame what's going on. The settings are: CLog - 1/50s - f4.8 - ISO500 - all image stabilisation OFF - 4K I stuck a lut on it to bring back contrast. Ghosting is clearly visible as vertical traces - sometimes as many as two or three from previous frames. I don't think it's the stabiliser as the footage above shows. Maybe it is certain units or maybe it is firmware. My camera came with the stock firmware and I updated it to 1.0.2.0. I don't know where you might find the original, or if it's even possible to revert to it. Can you do a test similar to above to see if your unit exhibits the same problem? It's most noticeable when a dark area is moving into midtones. In other news Canon sent me this, so if you guys report the same issue to them they might get on the case and actually do something: TLDR: XC10 has ghosting at all ISOs and it has nothing to do with image stabilisation. I'll definitely give this a test later in the week and report back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lintelfilm Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 On 14/10/2016 at 2:42 PM, hyalinejim said: PROBLEM 3: Physical exposure controls Full exposure control is accessible from the touch screen menu. However, when shooting handheld it's not convenient to access the touch screen menu while shooting. The joystick control introduces camera shake when pressed and is prone to directional error as it's so small. There's a pretty straightforward workaround for this that I use all the time. Set the jog wheel to ISO in M (Manual) mode, then if you need to change aperture, change the mode dial to A (Aperture Priority) and use the jog wheel - or to change shutter speed move to Tv (shutter priority) and use the jog wheel. Then go back to Manual mode. Any changes you made in the other modes are retained in Manual mode. Simple! It seems a bit fiddly at first, especially with the lock button on the mode dial, but you soon get used to it and it is effectively physical controls. Much better than the menu approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyalinejim Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Yes, but if you do that during a recording the exposure goes wonky with all the switching from manual to Av and back again. So it's a good method for changing exposure between takes but not so good on the fly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lintelfilm Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 50 minutes ago, hyalinejim said: Yes, but if you do that during a recording the exposure goes wonky with all the switching from manual to Av and back again. So it's a good method for changing exposure between takes but not so good on the fly. Well you shouldn't be changing shutter speed on the fly and personally I don't often want to change aperture while shooting as generally I leave it either wide open or at constant f5.6 depending on light and subject. A combination of ND filters and riding the ISO wheel in Manual mode is all you really need then. Of course the other option is to put it in shutter priority mode, set it to 180 degrees and leave it there. That puts ISO and aperture onto full auto which works well and exposure changes are smooth. You can use NDs to tweak how the AE behaves in bright light. It's a camera that's built to be used in auto mode, which is a bit scary to us geeks, but it works well as it's auto functions are prioritised for video not stills. mercer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 12 minutes ago, Lintelfilm said: Well you shouldn't be changing shutter speed on the fly and personally I don't often want to change aperture while shooting as generally I leave it either wide open or at constant f5.6 depending on light and subject. A combination of ND filters and riding the ISO wheel in Manual mode is all you really need then. Of course the other option is to put it in shutter priority mode, set it to 180 degrees and leave it there. That puts ISO and aperture onto full auto which works well and exposure changes are smooth. You can use NDs to tweak how the AE behaves in bright light. It's a camera that's built to be used in auto mode, which is a bit scary to us geeks, but it works well as it's auto functions are prioritised for video not stills. Yeah, the camera works beautifully in hybrid manual/auto mode... So to speak. I use mine in manual, but ride the exposure on the wheel when necessary, but I have been either lighting my scenes or shooting in daylight... The ability to close down or open up the aperture as I track my actor in and out of shadows has been awesome, then use Push AF when I choose my priority focus is really cool... And being able to do it all with my right hand while I walk around is the icing on the cake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonmillard81 Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Question guys: is there a reason to invest in an XC system over C100 other than price? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 6 minutes ago, jasonmillard81 said: Question guys: is there a reason to invest in an XC system over C100 other than price? Price, 5-Axis IS, and broadcast quality 4K codec. If none of those matter to you, then probably not. The C100ii has interchangeable lens options, DPAF, S35mm sensor, better audio interface, more built in ND support... I'm sure there's more, but that's all I got as I don't have a C100ii. jasonmillard81 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyalinejim Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 I agree that Tv Mode is useful, but I'd like to have access to exposure lock and exposure compensation without going into the menu. But maybe I just need to get used to using the joystick. 8 hours ago, jasonmillard81 said: Question guys: is there a reason to invest in an XC system over C100 other than price? As a handheld, run and gun, below the radar camera the XC10 is epic (aside from image ghosting issues which drive me nuts when I see them). It's so small and light that you can walk around all day with it in your hands getting acres and acres of usable footage in a very casual manner. It's so ugly that it looks like a bridge camera from 2004, and this means that people are likely to think you're just another tourist. Just add bum bag [fanny pack] to complete the effect Lintelfilm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lintelfilm Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 8 hours ago, jasonmillard81 said: Question guys: is there a reason to invest in an XC system over C100 other than price? Only you can answer that question. The differences are very obvious. If compact size and 4K are a priority go XC10, if low light and shallow DOF matter go C100. If audio is important go C100 or XC15 with XLR unit. If you want to moan about no camera being all things to all men, hang out on this forum instead of making films. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 4 hours ago, Lintelfilm said: Only you can answer that question. The differences are very obvious. If compact size and 4K are a priority go XC10, if low light and shallow DOF matter go C100. If audio is important go C100 or XC15 with XLR unit. If you want to moan about no camera being all things to all men, hang out on this forum instead of making films. ? Great summation... I ran out of "Like" for the day. Lintelfilm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidzrevil Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 C-LOG is absolutely amazing. The absolute zero sharpening of the picture profile really brought out the look of the type of diffusion I was using. Very smooth, very filmic look with that deep depth of field of super 16mm and Canon color I love it. Im still getting used to the camera but so far so good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 1 hour ago, kidzrevil said: C-LOG is absolutely amazing. The absolute zero sharpening of the picture profile really brought out the look of the type of diffusion I was using. Very smooth, very filmic look with that deep depth of field of super 16mm and Canon color I love it. Im still getting used to the camera but so far so good. Those grabs are so nice I had to like em twice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyalinejim Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 @kidzrevil What white balance are you shooting at? I've tried the various presets and also dialling in Kelvin. I like my images on the cool side, but have noticed a purple cast in the blues when I do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidzrevil Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Just now, hyalinejim said: @kidzrevil What white balance are you shooting at? I white balance with a grey card for a neutral look and I shift the white balance in post. This was probably shot at 5600 or 5500 kelvin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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