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Mark Romero 2

How Good Is VLOG on the S1?

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Hi everyone:

Anyone have extensive experience shooting in VLOG on the S1 (not the S1 H)???

In particular, how much of a real world dynamic range advantage does it have over Sony's 8-bit SLOG? (Or the VLOG found in the GH5 or GH5S, or FLOG in the X-T3).

There don't seem to be too many examples of it posted online, and the few comparisons I've seen between VLOG on the S1 and SLOG2 on the Sony a7 III seem to contradict one another.

Also, does it need to be overexposed to avoid excessive noise/ color shifts in the shadows? If so, how many stops are optimum?

The fact that it uses an h.264 codec at 150Mbs has me concerned. (Am I misunderstanding??? Does it have a higher bitrate when shooting VLOG???)

Thanks in advance. Don't understand what is taking so long for Sony to get 10-bit with a better codec in to a camera.

P.S. As video is still just about 15% of my work compared to stills photography being 85% of my work, I probably won't buy an S1H.

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

S1H and S1 Vlog are the same thing, other than the higher bitrate options on the S1H. Skip to about 3:20 and he does a comparison of the S1 and the A73


150mbps seems to be plenty for H264. I am not sure how Panasonic does it but it works. 

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16 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

S1H and S1 Vlog are the same thing, other than the higher bitrate options on the S1H. Skip to about 3:20 and he does a comparison of the S1 and the A73


150mbps seems to be plenty for H264. I am not sure how Panasonic does it but it works. 

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, I have watched that video a couple of times. It seems that aside from the banding in the 8-bit SLOG 2 from Sony, it actually BEATS the VLOG, at least according to his tests. (By beat I mean better highlight retention and no color shift in shadows, which his tests said the S1 has.)

There's another test by vistek where he did a quick and dirty test between the two cameras (S1 and a7 III) and the S1 was significantly better:

The tests start around the 9:17 mark of this video:

 

Now neither of these tests seem scientific but they both seems somewhat "real world." And they seem to contradict one another to a certain extent. Gerald Undone's test said better highlights but banding in the a7 III, with color shift in the shadows on the S1, while Vistek's show better highlights in the S1 and no banding, but plenty of magenta skin tones (the magenta skin tones may have more to do with the VLOG to 709 LUT they used though.)

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36 minutes ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, I have watched that video a couple of times. It seems that aside from the banding in the 8-bit SLOG 2 from Sony, it actually BEATS the VLOG, at least according to his tests. (By beat I mean better highlight retention and no color shift in shadows, which his tests said the S1 has.)

There's another test by vistek where he did a quick and dirty test between the two cameras (S1 and a7 III) and the S1 was significantly better:

The tests start around the 9:17 mark of this video:

 

Now neither of these tests seem scientific but they both seems somewhat "real world." And they seem to contradict one another to a certain extent. Gerald Undone's test said better highlights but banding in the a7 III, with color shift in the shadows on the S1, while Vistek's show better highlights in the S1 and no banding, but plenty of magenta skin tones (the magenta skin tones may have more to do with the VLOG to 709 LUT they used though.)

True although that dynamic range is kind of useless if you get banding. The Sony's have impressive dynamic range but in 8 bit, I wouldn't use it. HLG seems to do better on the Sony's. I wonder how it would compare to Panasonics Vlog.  

From what I read 8 bit cineD vs 10 bit there is no difference at least on the GH5. 10 bit really makes the difference when it comes to log though, as it eliminates banding. 

Cinema 5D got better Dynamic range from the S1 than the XT3 or Sony A73(I would imagine the shadows are cleaner). That said it would be nice to see real world tests. Less color shift in the shadows is definitely a good thing and a +1 for Sony. But again I just wouldn't shoot 8 bit in LOG. 

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I can't speak to the S1... yet, but I tried the S1H for a few days and was so won over by the V-Log that my S1 is arriving tomorrow. From what I can gather, there may be small differences between the S1 and S1H V-Log, but I haven't seen anyone say that one is better or worse.

I remember when I had the GH5 that there was basically no visual difference between the 400mbps and the 150mbps LongGop. There are some comparison videos out there for the GH5. I would imagine that it will be a similar case to the S1.

Anyway my experience of the V-Log on the S1H was that it's far superior to Sony S-Log in colour and the ease of getting a pleasing colour, particularly with skin tones. I put a couple of luts onto my rough V-Log tests and I was blown away by how good it looked. In comparison I have never found the same to be the case with S-Log. To get it looking good at all takes a lot of work, and even then it's not my cup of tea. Likewise the V-Log on the GH5 was better, but always ever so slightly off. I guess I'd have to put it down to the sensor, as the S1 range colour is so rich and realistic and just bang on.

I won't be thrilled about the autofocus on the S1 based on the S1H, and the size is a bit of a pain, but I feel like it's worth it to get an image - with the V-Log - which to my eye is comparable to the EVA-1 and Varicam in terms of colour and skin tone. Going back to the Sony again, nobody could realistically compare the A7III to even the FS7, and certainly not the top of the line Venice colour science.

EDIT

I have to say that my impressions of S-Log have been with the FS7, FS5, A7SII and A7RIII. I understand the newer generation have much better colour.

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3 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Hi everyone:

Anyone have extensive experience shooting in VLOG on the S1 (not the S1 H)???

In particular, how much of a real world dynamic range advantage does it have over Sony's 8-bit SLOG? (Or the VLOG found in the GH5 or GH5S, or FLOG in the X-T3).

There don't seem to be too many examples of it posted online, and the few comparisons I've seen between VLOG on the S1 and SLOG2 on the Sony a7 III seem to contradict one another.

Also, does it need to be overexposed to avoid excessive noise/ color shifts in the shadows? If so, how many stops are optimum?

The fact that it uses an h.264 codec at 150Mbs has me concerned. (Am I misunderstanding??? Does it have a higher bitrate when shooting VLOG???)

Thanks in advance. Don't understand what is taking so long for Sony to get 10-bit with a better codec in to a camera.

P.S. As video is still just about 15% of my work compared to stills photography being 85% of my work, I probably won't buy an S1H.

Download the v-log footage from my blog and try it out for yourself: https://blog.presstige.sk/post/187207698230/bmpcc-4k-raw-vs-panasonic-s1-v-log-i-just-did-a

(it was shot with the old FW)

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The S1 has almost 2 stops more dynamic range over the A73 and much, much better color science. Also the 10 bit codec is solid, just avoid using Premiere with standard settings.

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3 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

At this point in time Vlog on the S1 is superior as they got rid of the ghosting issue at higher ISO's as well as the color clipping issue with blue lights. 

Thanks. Do we know which firmware that was cleared up in? I hadn't heard about blue light clipping being fixed.

2 hours ago, funkyou86 said:

Download the v-log footage from my blog and try it out for yourself: https://blog.presstige.sk/post/187207698230/bmpcc-4k-raw-vs-panasonic-s1-v-log-i-just-did-a

(it was shot with the old FW)

Will do, thanks for making it available.

1 hour ago, deezid said:

The S1 has almost 2 stops more dynamic range over the A73 and much, much better color science. Also the 10 bit codec is solid, just avoid using Premiere with standard settings.

Just to be clear, this is based on your own findings?

And rest assured I avoid using premiere all the time :) Hopefully there are no issues with using S1 VLOG in Resolve.

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1 minute ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Thanks. Do we know which firmware that was cleared up in? I hadn't heard about blue light clipping being fixed.

 

The last firmware I believe. I recall watching videos on it. For whatever reason they didn't do the S1H fix at the same time. 

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8 minutes ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Just to be clear, this is based on your own findings?

And rest assured I avoid using premiere all the time :) Hopefully there are no issues with using S1 VLOG in Resolve.

Based on what Cinema5D measured and own findings as well. ;)DR-Result-Panny-S1-ISO640-VLOG-P1000207_0005_Step_2.png.81a54866ea8914b8b723e2aa3886a876.png

Should be even better with latest firmware 1.3 witch has many NR and gamut mapping improvements and doesn't cause any artifacts such as ghosting, smearing and blotches as well as blue clipping anymore.

About Resolve: At least in Davinci Resolve Studio it runs flawlessly with a proper NVIDIA GPU (1660 and above).

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9 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

The last firmware I believe. I recall watching videos on it. For whatever reason they didn't do the S1H fix at the same time. 

Thanks for that. I will try to look up some videos on the latest firmware updates.

2 minutes ago, deezid said:

Based on what Cinema5D measured and own findings as well. ;)DR-Result-Panny-S1-ISO640-VLOG-P1000207_0005_Step_2.png.81a54866ea8914b8b723e2aa3886a876.png

Should be even better with latest firmware 1.3 witch has many NR and gamut mapping improvements and doesn't cause any artifacts such as ghosting, smearing and blotches as well as blue clipping anymore.

About Resolve: At least in Davinci Resolve Studio it runs flawlessly with a proper NVIDIA GPU (1660 and above).

 

Thanks for the confirmation and for the link. Ha Ha, still using a GTX 960... with only 2GB of VRAM as well :) My CUDA performance is so low, people using MacBooks make fun of me.  Needless to say, my editing sessions usually involve a lot of cussing and drinking.  

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1 hour ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

 My CUDA performance is so low, people using MacBooks make fun of me.  Needless to say, my editing sessions usually involve a lot of cussing and drinking.  

Uh oh, I do the same with people using MacBooks which are quite slow (and much more expensive) in comparison to mine haha

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Vlog looks amazing on the S1, so good it has me seriously considering selling my Sony a73/a7r3 kit and moving to the S1/S1r. After handling all the S1's last week, I don't want to carry the S1h, and used prices are crazy low on the standard S1 and even the S1r if you need resolution for stills - which I do. But the Vlog image is just super nice, great colors, great highlight rolloff, and just very natural motion. If Panasonic had AF like Canon's DPAF or Sony's new active tracking I'd be all-in on the S1's. Its the AF that's holding me back. I use a gimbal a lot for video and shoot a ton of stills for paid work which would mean at least one body in another mount to get great AF, still waiting for that unicorn camera....

Chris

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1 hour ago, Trek of Joy said:

Vlog looks amazing on the S1, so good it has me seriously considering selling my Sony a73/a7r3 kit and moving to the S1/S1r. After handling all the S1's last week, I don't want to carry the S1h, and used prices are crazy low on the standard S1 and even the S1r if you need resolution for stills - which I do. But the Vlog image is just super nice, great colors, great highlight rolloff, and just very natural motion. If Panasonic had AF like Canon's DPAF or Sony's new active tracking I'd be all-in on the S1's. Its the AF that's holding me back. I use a gimbal a lot for video and shoot a ton of stills for paid work which would mean at least one body in another mount to get great AF, still waiting for that unicorn camera....

Chris

I feel your pain, brother.  I can live with spending a lot of money on a camera and lenses for a great image; I just want to make sure it is in focus. 

Everything seems All Quite on the Sony Front right about now too. The only rumors there have been lately (and there haven't been many rumors lately) is that Sony WON'T be putting 10-bit / a better codec into the alpha series cameras any time soon. 

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11 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

I feel your pain, brother.  I can live with spending a lot of money on a camera and lenses for a great image; I just want to make sure it is in focus. 

Everything seems All Quite on the Sony Front right about now too. The only rumors there have been lately (and there haven't been many rumors lately) is that Sony WON'T be putting 10-bit / a better codec into the alpha series cameras any time soon. 

That's why I'm looking elsewhere, I just don't see Sony stepping into FS5 10-bit territory with one of the a7's unless its priced at $5000. My bet is the mythical a7s3 has same 8-bit internal with a 10-bit external like the EOS R - which ironically is another option I'm considering along with the S1 and either the Zcam E2 or S6. All could use adapted EF lenses and the EOS R/Zcams have the added benefit of using speedboosters. But for handheld stuff - which is how I mostly shoot - the IBIS on the S1 is just amazing. I was tinkering with it and there was a significant improvement over my a73, along with the vastly superior EVF, LCD, grip and so on. Used copies are already in the $1600 range with Vlog and dropping.

Chris

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The Nikon Z6 seems to be the best option right now for 10 bit and auto focus, of course you need an atomos which is a pain in the ass. Until the new Canon DX comes out, though it'll be a lot of money I am sure. Of course there is Fuji if you aren't set on full frame. 

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21 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

The Nikon Z6 seems to be the best option right now for 10 bit and auto focus, of course you need an atomos which is a pain in the ass. Until the new Canon DX comes out, though it'll be a lot of money I am sure. Of course there is Fuji if you aren't set on full frame. 

Are you sure? I saw one shooting 10-bit with a Ninja (N-Log) and the autofocus was horrible and far worse than I've seen from an S1. It was a while ago so maybe there's been a new firmware but the guy shooting just said autofocus fell apart with an external recorder.

 

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36 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

The Nikon Z6 seems to be the best option right now for 10 bit and auto focus, of course you need an atomos which is a pain in the ass. Until the new Canon DX comes out, though it'll be a lot of money I am sure. Of course there is Fuji if you aren't set on full frame. 

If you need to add the Ninja, I'd go EOS R for Clog, 10-bit and AF. That's the appeal for me, the DPAF with the recent eye update is just amazing and the crop is easy to work around with one wide APS-c lens like the Tokina 11-16 or the new speedbooster. I like the Zed's a lot and the lens lineup Nikon is building, but they just aren't quite there for me yet. Just my opinion. Every option in this space has significant warts, the perfect hybrid just doesn't exist ... yet. Sony could easily build it, but they clearly won't. Panasonic just sticks their collective heads in the sand pretending PDAF doesn't exist and the jarring DFD is somehow better, but it isn't. That's why I'm also considering a mashup of the Zcam or the S1 as video centric camera along with a photo workhorse - the rest are just because I like to tinker with new toys, haha. The R appeals to me as a gimbal body.

I shoot lots of stills as well, so I will always have one FF body. I shot Fuji for a long time, about 25k frames over the year and a half I rolled with a couple XT2's, but for most of my paid work I still used the extra DR and resolution of Sony's 42mp files. Used a7r2's can be found for under $1000, at those prices FF is a no brainer. Again my opinion. I have a gap of about a month between projects, so I'm looking at shifting my a73 kit in a couple weeks and getting a S1 with a couple EF lenses.

Of course that means the a7s3 will be announced shortly after and it will blow everyone's minds. 

Chris

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