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Oliver Daniel

Z-CAM quietly announce 8k and 6k FULL FRAME cameras - no joke!

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Just now, zerocool22 said:

Not sure sony would release something that will wipe their FS5/FS7 line of the table. 

I should have been more descriptive in my answer, for me the FS5/FS7 are different because of the connectivity and ergonomics.

I was comparing the A7S3 compact bodies like the mavo bare body/E2/blackmagic pocket or even RED basic body, they don t have internal NDS or proper audio/video connectors.

 

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18 minutes ago, Laurier said:

But by the time they come out, it will probably have to compete with the A7s3, at that point I expect the A7s3 to kill all other sub 10k camera for video in term of performance/price.
It s getting more and more probable that we will get some form of video raw out of it, so the benefit of a a mavo LF/E2 FF would be a lot less obvious.
Most  FF video camera seem to cap at 60fps at full sensor readout, so we might not even get a higher frame rate than a A7s3 either.

People are putting too much faith in Canon and Sony.

The smaller companies will revolutionize the products and processes of next decades (and the generation Alpha).

BM can print a body, put a sensor and some chips and make a 1400$ raw 5" monitor camera, while established companies with huge capitals need 4 to 6 times the money for similar, or worst, performance.

The A7Siii will probably be a better camera than the P4K, but for how much? And when?

I say, the future is now, and it is happening from small companies.

P.S don't you think that an SDI output and an ND filter for 5.000$€£ is too much?!

 

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1 minute ago, Kisaha said:

People are putting too much faith in Canon and Sony.

The smaller companies will revolutionize the products and processes of next decades (and the generation Alpha).

BM can print a body, put a sensor and some chips and make a 1400$ raw 5" monitor camera, while established companies with huge capitals need 4 to 6 times the money for similar, or worst, performance.

The A7Siii will probably be a better camera than the P4K, but for how much? And when?

I say, the future is now, and it is happening from small companies.

 

 

I believe that the sensor inside the pocket 4k is from Sony , the same as GH5s and Terra4k and E2.

They might be slow at releasing their own products, but they are the ones driving innovation. 
Without Sony/Panasonic ( and soon Samsung ) making affordable component available to small companies, those company would not even be able to make digital cameras.
In the sensor technology world, Sony is two years ahead of pretty much everyone else ( I m not making this up, you can have a look online).

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9 minutes ago, Laurier said:

I believe that the sensor inside the pocket 4k is from Sony , the same as GH5s and Terra4k and E2.

They might be slow at releasing their own products, but they are the ones driving innovation. 
Without Sony/Panasonic ( and soon Samsung ) making affordable component available to small companies, those company would not even be able to make digital cameras.
In the sensor technology world, Sony is two years ahead of pretty much everyone else ( I m not making this up, you can have a look online).

Of course, but I am talking further into the future! 

I can predict that in 10-20 years from now, you could be able to buy all the components from ebay, and 3D print and manufacture your own digital camera at home.

2-3 years is nothing for what we have in front of us!

 

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I hope for it too,

But looking at the Axiom camera project , that do not look that simple and promising. 

Sensor development is so expensive and complex that I doubt that it will ever be accessible to small companies ( you can make the parallel with intel/AMD, no one have really been challenging their supremacy for at least a decade) 

At best their partner with bigger fish, like RED and Foxcon. ( I m really curious to see what is going to come out of this)

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8 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I certainly love how much interaction they're having with all sorts of people on social media, my worries though are:
1) a few loud voices can sway them in going in perhaps the wrong direction for the overall market (for instance their first focus for them after the E2 was in making a global shutter camera, not a good pick in my opinion)
2) their prices seem to be going up and up and up.....  soon they will no longer be a cheaper alternative to Panasonic MFT cameras, but instead they'll be competing directly with Kinefinity. And I'd hope they don't overlap like that. Is better for there to be two Chinese companies which have one targeted at (cheaper) high end cameras, and the other one targeting (cheaper) mid/low end affordable cameras. 

It helps they seem to be basing them all on the same general "E2" platform / body.  But with different sensors/mounts. 

Their are cages made specifically for the E2

1. They listen to people, but I don't think that group is dictating their sole direction, the biggest thing they take from there is small feedback on how to improve their existing designs and ideas. m43 mount on an ASPC cam as an example.

2. Their prices haven't been made public yet for the FF cams. APSC cam is 4K, which if you analyse the market would still be the best value for money 6K 60fps camera available by a decent margin.

8 hours ago, Laurier said:

Yep , well the blackmagic pocket 4k is more or less the terra 4k for 1/3 of the price.

But by the time they come out, it will probably have to compete with the A7s3, at that point I expect the A7s3 to kill all other sub 10k camera for video in term of performance/price.
It s getting more and more probable that we will get some form of video raw out of it, so the benefit of a a mavo LF/E2 FF would be a lot less obvious.

The pocket isn't the same as the Terra IMO, not really close. Have you used them both? Sensor doesn't = camera. Try an E2 and a P4K and you will see.

There's a lot of what ifs in your statement. For one we have no idea of what, and how much the A7s3 will be, certainly we have no idea whether it will have ProRes or Raw video internal. Also we can almost guarantee the A7s3 won't have the same convenient form factor as an E2 with zero overheating issues (that we already know). Also Kinefinity and Zcam are pretty far apart in price, I wouldn't really lump them together.

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9 hours ago, Laurier said:

But by the time they come out, it will probably have to compete with the A7s3, at that point I expect the A7s3 to kill all other sub 10k camera for video in term of performance/price.

It feels like people have been for years promising that when the a7S mk3 comes out then it "will kill all other cameras under $X"!! And yet.... we've yet to see it get released. And neither the a7S mk1 or a7S mk2 came anywhere near to "killing the competition".

9 hours ago, Kisaha said:

People are putting too much faith in Canon and Sony.

Exactly!
 

9 hours ago, Kisaha said:

The A7Siii will probably be a better camera than the P4K, but for how much? And when?


I suspect this mythical a7S mk3 when released will be "better" than the BMPCC4K in a few ways, but definitely not all! The P4K will still be better in some areas. 

8 hours ago, Kisaha said:

I can predict that in 10-20 years from now, you could be able to buy all the components from ebay, and 3D print and manufacture your own digital camera at home.

We're not going to see that happen in ten years time. 

3D printing has been promising to revolutionize our worlds, and it will.... but not to that extent, and definitely not in that time frame. (not unless you're meaning printing very basic parts like the camera shell, but really 95% is coming from eBay. And even then... I highly doubt it could be really better value than what a company with economies of scale could do)

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6 minutes ago, Oliver Daniel said:

Wow, that pricing is aggressive! 

Would love to hear more about frame rates / codecs - expecting ProRes, H265, and RAW in some modes. 

Definitely. Going straight for the head of Kinefinity!! 

Hopefully we'll hear some more details after Nab... Exciting times 😁

 

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10 hours ago, IronFilm said:

3D printing has been promising to revolutionize our worlds, and it will.... but not to that extent, and definitely not in that time frame. (not unless you're meaning printing very basic parts like the camera shell, but really 95% is coming from eBay. And even then... I highly doubt it could be really better value than what a company with economies of scale could do)

Yes, print your case however you like it and buy the rest from ebay. We are not in Star Trek yet!

It won't be better value in the beginning but it will be your design, and pretty cool to build something like this on your own.

It will be the ultimate DIY!

P.S I may sound a bit optimistic on my recent posts, but my first game console was the Atari 2600 and the most advanced portable device was the Walkman (or woman, if it was trademarked today!).

Technological advancements were really generous to my generation, plus I can put things in perspective.

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13 hours ago, IronFilm said:

It feels like people have been for years promising that when the a7S mk3 comes out then it "will kill all other cameras under $X"!! And yet.... we've yet to see it get released. And neither the a7S mk1 or a7S mk2 came anywhere near to "killing the competition".

Exactly!
 


I suspect this mythical a7S mk3 when released will be "better" than the BMPCC4K in a few ways, but definitely not all! The P4K will still be better in some areas. 

We're not going to see that happen in ten years time. 

3D printing has been promising to revolutionize our worlds, and it will.... but not to that extent, and definitely not in that time frame. (not unless you're meaning printing very basic parts like the camera shell, but really 95% is coming from eBay. And even then... I highly doubt it could be really better value than what a company with economies of scale could do)

At entry level production I still see a lot more A7s and canon dslr than blackmagic cameras ( I owned 2 blackmagic cameras and 3 sony cameras )

The truth is that Canon and Sony are simply more convenient to use , you get better low light performance, autofocus, stabilization, size ....of course you loose on the codec side , but considering that most small production never budget proper color grading and that the content end up on youtube, that not as important as getting relatively clean image in a challenging environment .

My point is that , even at 5kusd for the 6kFF ( if they offer something similar to the MAVO , that an excellent price), they will still have to compete with a 3.5Kusd camera that will offer better performance and features overall.

You can get a a7III for 2k with probably the same sensor as the E2 6k FF , you loose slow mo and 10bits, you win autofocus and stabilization, better screen/evf and form factor.
and there is a 3k usd difference between the two option.

 

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33 minutes ago, Laurier said:

At entry level production I still see a lot more A7s and canon dslr than blackmagic cameras ( I owned 2 blackmagic cameras and 3 sony cameras )

The truth is that Canon and Sony are simply more convenient to use , you get better low light performance, autofocus, stabilization, size ....of course you loose on the codec side , but considering that most small production never budget proper color grading and that the content end up on youtube, that not as important as getting relatively clean image in a challenging environment .

My point is that , even at 5kusd for the 6kFF ( if they offer something similar to the MAVO , that an excellent price), they will still have to compete with a 3.5Kusd camera that will offer better performance and features overall.

You can get a a7III for 2k with probably the same sensor as the E2 6k FF , you loose slow mo and 10bits, you win autofocus and stabilization, better screen/evf and form factor.
and there is a 3k usd difference between the two option.

 

The markets and purposes are different. 

The E2 range are production cameras, whereas the Sony’s are hybrids that do a bit of everything. The A7 developers won’t care about the E2 at all. 

Any camera is a hard sell for me at the moment as I have Panasonic’s like the EVA1. But it’s exciting to see a full frame camera a quarter the size of the EVA1 coming with even higher end features. 😎 

 

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52 minutes ago, Laurier said:

At entry level production I still see a lot more A7s and canon dslr than blackmagic cameras ( I owned 2 blackmagic cameras and 3 sony cameras )

because there weren't any other options before..keep that in mind, and have this conversation 5 years into the future, where P8K will be a reality, and Z has put 16 more cameras out, and DJI another 16, and Yongnuo another 4 e.t.c e.t.c

There are still people using 5DmkII and 70/80D as their only video cameras, this is about to change.

Also, your faith that A7sIII will be the camera that will end them all, and for 3.500$, is a bit naive. Sony will never give you a 3.5K$ camera with everything their 70.000+ full frame video cameras have, with the only difference of form factor, ND and a couple of connections!

Z can, and they will for 4.995$..

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6 hours ago, AlexTrinder96 said:

Screenshot_2019-04-04-09-53-20-203_com.facebook.katana.png

Does anyone have the full version of this post? Or is that it?

What are the max frame rates on the full frame cameras?

Seriously impressive stuff and the Micro Four Thirds version shipping already is a total bargain for $1999. 4K 120fps 10bit ProRes!!

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3 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Does anyone have the full version of this post? Or is that it?

What are the max frame rates on the full frame cameras?

Seriously impressive stuff and the Micro Four Thirds version shipping already is a total bargain for $1999. 4K 120fps 10bit ProRes!!

That's the full post. I don't think they've said anything about frame rates on the F6 or F8 yet. The S6 does 6k60 at 2.4:1, and 6k30 at open gate 6244 x 4168.

I find the F6 to look like the best value. It's not as big a jump in price over the S6 as the latter is over the normal E2. If you want a speed booster with a locking EF mount on the S6 (assuming they do actually make a M43 mount), then the price is pretty similar overall. Of course, if you have a lot of S35 or APS-C glass then the S6 looks like a killer option. $4k is a little steep compared to the XT3 to me.

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If said this before but I think we are going to see more innovation from smaller camera companies like Z Cam here in the pro-mirrorless-cinema realm. They will offer you more bang for your buck than the bigger guys minus probably stellar support when things go wrong.

As long as they can keep the quality of their products up, people will buy these simply because the big guys don’t offer them what they want for sub $3K.

Only bigger production companies will want cinema lines (and support) from the bigger companies.

And Id you already have all the other gear (Vmount batteries, monitor, Audio) these are incredibly cheap and will pay off quicker than having to charge rental for a $14,000 Canon cinema camera. 

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56 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:

That's the full post. I don't think they've said anything about frame rates on the F6 or F8 yet. The S6 does 6k60 at 2.4:1, and 6k30 at open gate 6244 x 4168.

Did somebody just say Anamorphic Mode? :)

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1 hour ago, KnightsFan said:

If you want a speed booster with a locking EF mount on the S6 (assuming they do actually make a M43 mount),...

Let's hope that the big tube structure on the front is removable and can be replaced with sane (much shallower) mounts.

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