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Nikon Z RAW video support

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3 hours ago, Falk Lumo said:

I do understand the researvations against using a computer monitor to act as a test chart. Many things can go wrong then. But if done right, it is a superior method actually as it is far easier to control the effect of the printing pattern, or monitor pixel grid, resp. I've done both methods in the past and I can assure that - the way *we* did it - a professional test chart would render identical results. Everybody is free to professionally print the chart (Super A3 would be the minimal size required) and reproduce (or falsify) results - all required information is public and linked in the blog article.

Cameo 40" Resolution Analysis Chart

https://www.abelcine.com/buy/lenses-accessories/optical-evaluation-tools/cameo-40-resolution-analysis-chart

I think this is the reason why you use the monitor instead of a professional test chart.  $1,200 for a test chart.

You might want to consider benchmark testing would also validate what you're doing.  Benchmark a cine camera that's in basic terms "gets it right". 

No other Nikon footage is displaying what you claim that sensor is doing. 

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, nickname said:

there´s a video up now on youtube that has a brick wall.

 

 

 

before this i also hadn´t seen any aliasing...

Because it's not in Raw Pro RES footage.

There's another You Tube video and the Z6 user did this to the footage: " i set in fcpx noise reduction _ Sharpness _ medium".

Apparently from the comments people think "noise reduction and sharpness" is part of the work flow because it's RAW footage.

If aliasing was an issue it would be apparent in this video:

 

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59 minutes ago, nickname said:

there´s a video up now on youtube that has a brick wall.

before this i also hadn´t seen any aliasing...

This video, at the very beginning, shows aliasing color artifacts. It is claimed to be ProRes RAW. But the aliasing color artifacts could be from debayering color moiré due a lack of AA filter, of from pixel skipping in the RAW codec. It is hard to tell if not also the same footage was captured in N-Log.

BTW ... and to avoid any misunderstanding ...

I do NOT say "aliasing is an issue". I say Nikon aplies pixel skipping in their RAW data pipeline. As with debayering color moiré, I expect plenty of footage where its effects can't be noticed. I even remember the early days of the D800E (stills photography) where people claimed debayering color moiré would never be seen. It took a while. But today, it is pretty well understood when to expect, and not to expect, color moiré. Mostly in very fine farbrics of fashion at a single critical distance actually.

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1 hour ago, Falk Lumo said:

This video, at the very beginning, shows aliasing color artifacts. It is claimed to be ProRes RAW. But the aliasing color artifacts could be from debayering color moiré due a lack of AA filter, of from pixel skipping in the RAW codec. It is hard to tell if not also the same footage was captured in N-Log.

BTW ... and to avoid any misunderstanding ...

I do NOT say "aliasing is an issue". I say Nikon aplies pixel skipping in their RAW data pipeline. As with debayering color moiré, I expect plenty of footage where its effects can't be noticed. I even remember the early days of the D800E (stills photography) where people claimed debayering color moiré would never be seen. It took a while. But today, it is pretty well understood when to expect, and not to expect, color moiré. Mostly in very fine farbrics of fashion at a single critical distance actually.

The footage you commented on has added sharpening.

 <Please break down this footage>

 

I'm still waiting on a an answer about benchmark and professional test charts.  I provided a link.

 

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This discussion looks similar to Sigma Fp topic regarding their raw DNG having some issues. Problems in downscaling 6K to 4K Raw? Very interesting. Still waiting for my Z6 to come back from Nikon. Will do some testing. Although I don't have a pro resolution chart at hand either.

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On 1/16/2020 at 11:11 PM, Zeng said:

This discussion looks similar to Sigma Fp topic regarding their raw DNG having some issues. Problems in downscaling 6K to 4K Raw? Very interesting. Still waiting for my Z6 to come back from Nikon. Will do some testing. Although I don't have a pro resolution chart at hand either.

If a 2500$ pro chart is the only way to see aliasing from this camera then I guess we're all ok haha

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So we know the Z6 uses the Sony IMX410 sensor. (same as Sony A7-III) So, Nikon will be implementing the many readout modes it has, including the famous Sony 6k to 4k full pixel readout options. Now the Sony FX9 (possibly IMX310 sensor) will also have a 6k to 4k full pixel readout mode that delivers 4k "raw". Its unclear how "raw" this 6k to 4k scaling tecnique actually is.

1) The 6k RGGB scaled "separately" and saved in raw Bayered form?

2.)  Is the RGGB readout combined (deBayered) and then scaled to 4k and saved that way?

Where is the scaling process happening? And is it "really" raw is a scaling process is applied and its it similar to BlackMagic "raw".....that isn't truly "raw" after all?

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So I don't speak russian, but anyway, using the automatic subtitles translation from youtube and watching the video is all you need to know !

It's an amazing test and comparison of the H264 vs Prores HQ 10 bits vs Prores RAW. Using different setups and different tools as well as a very nice chart ;)

 

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Interesting conversation. Better that a bunch of people telling what they think about prores raw on Nikon Z6, at this point is all about getting the views on youtube.

 

Any idea when Nikon/Apple/Atomos will release the Raw to LOG conversion? 

 

BTW, I've been using your log profile and I can tell that you do get more dynamic range or at least you get more flexibility to play with it in post.

 

Thank you for that

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The non-raw video formats are resampled from the original sensor data and 6K->4K conversion can be done by interpolation. This cannot be done for raw video because raw file stores images before the RGBG Bayer pattern is converted into RGB pixels. There is no straightforward way to convert

RGR

BGB

RGR

 

into 

RG

BG

covering the same subsection of the image. So they have to skip data. The alternative would be to do the Bayer interpolation and create a 6K RGB image and then downsample that to 4K RGB and finally re-Bayer it to come up with the final 4K RAW. In this case there would be no aliasing problems but it wouldn't really be RAW ie. original photosite data. 

 

Another option that Nikon could have done is to offer a 1.5x cropped raw video without interpolation. In this case it would have been RAW without line skipping.

 

There is no stupidity involved here, only different compromises to choose from. 

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5 hours ago, Ilkka Nissila said:

There is no stupidity involved here, only different compromises to choose from. 

@Ilkka NissilaWe know about the options involved. However, looking into all data rates involved, there was no technical reason for Nikon not to output 6k RAW. Like Atomos with their Ninja V is going to offer for Panasonic too. Its also described in my article  ;)

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On 2020, Jan 8, DPReview TV published a look at Z6 ProRes RAW with a big mention of line skipping and associated artifacts. They provide a demonstration of said artifacts in their video and a screenshots is provided by DPReview user Horshack:

i-gPXTcGj.jpg

The effect is clearly visible and you heard it here first ;)

Via: https://www.dpreview.com/videos/3407929115/dpreview-tv-prores-raw-on-the-nikon-z6

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Very good review / tutorial on how to use Prores Raw by french vloger Emmanuel Pampuri.


The video is in french but it's easy to follow his workflow in FCPX. It's acutally quite different, as he doesn't use the "sony s-log" "lut" in FCPX to get excellent results (starting at 14m08s).

Enjoy :)

Edit : Also Adobe should give an update on Prores raw support in the next couple of weeks #finally....

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Unfortunately no one is doing a proper workflow for HDR. Output to BT 2020 PQ in any form of HDR such as Dolby Vision. Dumping this exquisite footage into a Rec.709 timeline and exporting to 8bit SDR is a complete and utter waste of time. Export to 12 bit HDR or leave us alone.

How do you do this you export to Pro Res HQ which can incorporate 12 bits data to stream on YouTube or Vimeo. 

Understand 12 bit raw has 68 billion colours why oh why oh why are you playing with N-LOG  S-Log or any Log, when you have so many stops of dynamic range. Use Log with 10 bit Pro Res not Pro Res RAW.

Never use Log with Raw!

Understand the destination is Dolby Vision or at least HDR10. Not SDR!

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Also no one even talks about the use of “HDR Tools” which needs to be placed at the top level of the effects stack. It is necessary to correctly tone map the highlights of perceptually quantized footage that describes BT2020 PQ. F-stoppers and Wolfcrow and many others are describing Pro Res RAW workflows that are not correct for producing proper HDR such as Dolby Vision using the Z6 camera.

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