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Nikon Z RAW video support

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On 10/26/2019 at 1:16 PM, TomPhoto23 said:

Still nailing... The promised CFExpress support is missing too.

Bit of a stupid reason to attack Nikon over!

Only two days ago was when the first CF Express cards were even ever available in stock:

https://nikonrumors.com/2019/12/09/first-cfexpress-memory-cards-now-in-stock.aspx/

 

 

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We have a long lasting conversation here about how the Z6 can deliver 4k prores raw. Now first footage emerged. I currently colloborate with a German Youtuber to shed some light on this, cf. https://youtu.be/FEGxTXC6trU and the comments by falconeye.

The point is that the Z6 does full sensor readout for full frame internal 4k (6k readout) and (as we now know) the Z6 outputs full frame 4k raw. There are 12 bit 30p full frame readout modes for 6k and probably(*) 4k (from a Sony document, (*) whether by crop or line skipping is left unspecified). However, uncropped 4k readout mode should create line skipping or binning artefacts.

Our preliminary test shows such artefacts - but only at a rather low level, cf. the video provided by Jungbluth on Dropbox. However, the quality isn't yet at a level to draw conclusions; there may be more visible artefacts hidden by not sharp enough test image quality.

The Z7 doesn't support full frame 4k raw. And it is easy to see why.

But how on earth can the Z6 support full frame 4k raw, if it isn't masqueraded 6k or line skipping? Assuming further testing indicates that there are no line skipping artefacts (too early to tell).

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On 1/1/2020 at 6:23 PM, Falk Lumo said:

We have a long lasting conversation here about how the Z6 can deliver 4k prores raw. Now first footage emerged. I currently colloborate with a German Youtuber to shed some light on this, cf. https://youtu.be/FEGxTXC6trU and the comments by falconeye.

The point is that the Z6 does full sensor readout for full frame internal 4k (6k readout) and (as we now know) the Z6 outputs full frame 4k raw. There are 12 bit 30p full frame readout modes for 6k and probably(*) 4k (from a Sony document, (*) whether by crop or line skipping is left unspecified). However, uncropped 4k readout mode should create line skipping or binning artefacts.

Our preliminary test shows such artefacts - but only at a rather low level, cf. the video provided by Jungbluth on Dropbox. However, the quality isn't yet at a level to draw conclusions; there may be more visible artefacts hidden by not sharp enough test image quality.

The Z7 doesn't support full frame 4k raw. And it is easy to see why.

But how on earth can the Z6 support full frame 4k raw, if it isn't masqueraded 6k or line skipping? Assuming further testing indicates that there are no line skipping artefacts (too early to tell).

I downloaded the sample file from the link provided.  Are you really putting weight in the chart and text Jungbluth did?  Who is "our" in your preliminary test? I'll wait for better test from reliable sources. 

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On 1/3/2020 at 8:01 AM, Super8 said:

I downloaded the sample file from the link provided.  Are you really putting weight in the chart and text Jungbluth did?  Who is "our" in your preliminary test? I'll wait for better test from reliable sources. 

Hi, you may not have been able to read the German part. I currently try to get Jungbluth redo the test with a better quality. As it is now, the quality is too low indeed to draw conclusions - as I wrote. However, done right, the test documents line skipping rather well. I did it before.

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36 minutes ago, Falk Lumo said:

Hi, you may not have been able to read the German part. I currently try to get Jungbluth redo the test with a better quality. As it is now, the quality is too low indeed to draw conclusions - as I wrote. However, done right, the test documents line skipping rather well. I did it before.

Can you show us stills from your test? Why did you ask Jungbluth to do the same test you already did?

Why would the test have to be "done right" to show line skipping?

You seem determined to show "line skipping".   Why?

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I have now concluded my analysis and published the results:

-> http://blog.falklumo.com/2020/01/the-conundrum-of-nikon-z6-prores-raw.html

As an answer to the above: I didn't ask Jungbluth to do the same test I already did. I asked him to do the tests for me. The test footage is from him, the instructions, cross checking, test charting and analysis is from me. I am not determined to show "line skipping", I am determined to show their absence. But that's possible only with proper testing.

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4 hours ago, Falk Lumo said:

I have now concluded my analysis and published the results:

-> http://blog.falklumo.com/2020/01/the-conundrum-of-nikon-z6-prores-raw.html

As an answer to the above: I didn't ask Jungbluth to do the same test I already did. I asked him to do the tests for me. The test footage is from him, the instructions, cross checking, test charting and analysis is from me. I am not determined to show "line skipping", I am determined to show their absence. But that's possible only with proper testing.

My question based on your comments are:

You asked Jungbluth to do a test for you and he used a low dpi print out of the test chart. Is that standard? 

I heard some talk that the Z6 has 6K sensor read out for stills and 4K readout for video. 

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@Super8, sorry but I will not respond to you anymore beyond this point. You are not reading carefully enough before posting.

First, Jungbluth did not use a print out of the test chart for the tests I used for analysis. I said that the process was iterative and I wrote in the article how the chart was used.

Second, the Z6 uses 6k sensor readout for both stills and video. Except for ProRes RAW and DX modes that is. You can actually learn this from my article too. That the Z6 internally supersamples a 6k readout to produce 4k video is official information from Nikon. And that the Z7 doesn't.

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21 hours ago, Falk Lumo said:

@Super8, sorry but I will not respond to you anymore beyond this point. You are not reading carefully enough before posting.

First, Jungbluth did not use a print out of the test chart for the tests I used for analysis. I said that the process was iterative and I wrote in the article how the chart was used.

Second, the Z6 uses 6k sensor readout for both stills and video. Except for ProRes RAW and DX modes that is. You can actually learn this from my article too. That the Z6 internally supersamples a 6k readout to produce 4k video is official information from Nikon. And that the Z7 doesn't.

Your test are flawed to get the result that you desire. 

So many issues in that test.

"Others were less naiv than me and expected Nikon to do line skipping in raw video. Of course, that would be rather bad ... why should one then use the raw option at all if internal recording uses supersampling?"

 

Here's Jungbluth Videografie You Tube Channel.  You linked to the wrong URL.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5wkEzkbfTQhjPSqXgsGUIQ/videos

 

 

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22 hours ago, Falk Lumo said:

First, Jungbluth did not use a print out of the test chart for the tests I used for analysis. I said that the process was iterative and I wrote in the article how the chart was used.

 

Here's the test chart printed from your basic $100 personal printer.

Are you test suppose to be serious?

"Dear Falk. I just printed your test chart and filmed it with 3 setting: internal, external ProRes RAW and external ProRes HQ with N-LOG. The original, unaltered files are here:"

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5lk44pthoik9zoy/AAC-Bt1R1WEuGgTag0N0RXx1a?dl=0

 

testd.jpg

In my opinion they are flawed based on printing a chart from an online source and how the test were taken.

I'll let everyone else comment and decide if the test chart and test are valid.

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Dear fellow readers. The above posting by Super8 is defamatory. Therefore, I can't ignore the troll. I hope moderators take notice.

Let's put some facts straight for everybody to see:

  • All information is in my blog post article. It contains all necessary details to reproduce, or falsify, my findings. It follows a scientific protocol.
  • Super8 decided to ignore all this information and rather cite an early attempt - quickly dismissed - as visible in a public Youtube comment section. My cooperation with Marc mostly happened via email in private communication. Of course, in the very beginning, Marc had to learn a thing or two. Rather normal. I can only assume that Super8 deliberately tries to run a FUD attack against my findings. That's sad. If you don't like it, just run your own test. Then we'll talk.
  • The printed test chart was never used to produce my result. Actually, I dismissed it for obvious reasons. Showing it here is nothing but trolling.

Nevertheless, thanks for spotting the error in Marc's Youtube link (he runs two channels). Now fixed in the article.

For easier reference, here is a copy of test footage (cropped in, scaled, graded) from Nikon Z6 FX ProRes RAW:

frame-000200.v950.jpg

The article provides help to interpret what you see. In short, green/magenta is from debayering moiré, blue/yellow from pixel skipping.

I'll try hard to ignore Super8 from now on. Thanks.

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They probably do need to go the pixel-binning route, due to the increased bitrate of 12bit

A sensor typically has a slower rolling shutter scan, the higher the bit-depth.

It could be that the 6K full pixel readout is done in a lower bit-depth mode such as 10bit on chip.

Interesting findings, but would like to see a real-world test between Flat, My Z-LOG internal, N-LOG external and ProRes RAW

Atomos have not sent me a Ninja V to try it out on yet.

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1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

They probably do need to go the pixel-binning route, due to the increased bitrate of 12bit

A sensor typically has a slower rolling shutter scan, the higher the bit-depth.

It could be that the 6K full pixel readout is done in a lower bit-depth mode such as 10bit on chip.

Interesting findings, but would like to see a real-world test between Flat, My Z-LOG internal, N-LOG external and ProRes RAW

Atomos have not sent me a Ninja V to try it out on yet.

Hi Andrew,

in my article, I linked to a PDF where Sony lists all 23 readout modes of the chip. There are 2 14Bit modes (Full frame and cropped) and 12 Bit modes. Video uses 12 Bit, both internal and external (as you can tell from the frame rates). There are no 10 or 8bit modes for readout. There are 4k readout modes. But as I explain in my article, they are most likely cropped modes, not binning or skipping modes.

My guess (or speculation) is that Nikon uses a 6k 12Bit readout mode and drops pixels in the data pipeline between the sensor and the hdmi port. My finding only shows that pixels are dropped, not how and where.

The real-world comparison tests is what I am looking forward too :)

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Yes that would make sense as well. HDMI only has limited bandwidth. I don't know why they aren't using USB C instead. I guess somebody should ask that question with Atomos in fact.

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