Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
IronFilm

Critical Looks at Demo Reels

Recommended Posts

Stumbled across there two articles which I felt are interesting enough to share, as Art Adams goes into amazing detail in his break down of the demo reels. Fascinating how much info he can draw out of a video!

 

http://www.dvinfo.net/article/acquisition/a-critical-look-at-cions-new-demo-reel.html

 

http://www.dvinfo.net/article/acquisition/panasonicp2hd/a-critical-look-at-varicams-latest-demo-reel.html

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

Man and to think I Almost bought one of those Turd AJA Cion's! At the time it was damn promising. Body size, weight was damn good at the time. Even the price was not bad for a startup. And it is Still a Turd LoL.

But wow, just like Red, they kept shitting around and shitting around. I realize a new camera has problems, but why even bother pushing it to the public when in reality you are at about 30% of the process when you want people to put down deposits for one! It's like Kinefinity, same shit. When you Have a project to do down the road you Have to do the damn thing. You can't hope some jackass May get the thing to you, you Have to have the stupid thing to make the project happen. You have to have it ahead of time to even learn the camera.

I have no clue in this day and age why some of these manufactures think they can keep pulling that crap off! It's not like Canon, Sony, Arri, Panny etc. have nothing to offer. You are not going to get in there and beat the big boys anymore. Red was a RARE exception to that at the time, and the reason it worked because they were promising 4k when no one else thought it was even sort of possible for a price anyone could ever really afford. Yeah Sony had one if you wanted to pay 250,000 grand for it!

I see Nothing Kinefinity, AJA Cion is promising that is new other than a "cheaper" product. Well guess what, you get what you pay for in Cine Cameras. Not ever going to buy a hell of a camera again at my age, but now there is too many bargains out now used to even think about these Odd Ball company's now.

Hell  down the road it might end up a great camera, but I would not take the chance until it happens. I know someone Has to take that chance or they go out of business, but you can go out with them if it doesn't work out! That is the problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the link!!!

Yeah, a very interesting read for us "color nerds."  I really liked the insights in the varicam review on how Arri color science handles highlight saturation compared to Panasonic and Sony. (The rolloff of my a6500 has been bugging me lately and I think that article has pointed me in the right direction in terms of grading my Sony footage.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Speaking of cameras. Well this tells a tale of what people used. Arri Alexa used is the way to go I would say over about anything if a person is Really serious.

https://nofilmschool.com/2018/01/infographic-sundance-2018-cameras-and-lenses

 

I think you posted a similar link last year which also showed a strong showing for Arri and Canon and a small showing for Panasonic.. In fact, I was surprised to see how many filmmakers used the 5D Mark iii last year and that was one of the many reasons I chose it over the GH5.

But I don’t agree with you about  Kinefity, I think they released an amazing camera with the Terra 4K. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, mercer said:

But I don’t agree with you about  Kinefity, I think they released an amazing camera with the Terra 4K. 

Sure they have after crapping around for 4 years. I am sure even Arri shit around for years also at the start. But I doubt the average person on here can afford to HOPE Kinefity, AJA Cion stay in business, or ever get better that is what I am saying.

Hell on paper most of us have been a Ginnie Pig for Blackmagic over the years. They have made it past the hump. But not without a lot of hiccups. This stuff is risky as hell for going to startups if you are not rolling in the dough. I like new stuff, who doesn't, but buyer beware like hell for all it cost to even rig a GH5, let alone a Kinefity 4k. If it fails, Oh Boy.

Here is a another breakdown on cameras.

https://nofilmschool.com/2018/01/Canon-C300-ALEXA-Sundance-Cameras-Lenses

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But yeah Glenn you are right about using a Canon. I am sure some of the reasons for a 5D mk III was because it was cheap if it was destroyed in a crash, or only be in a small space they needed it to be in.

But it looks like this year and last from my memory there was and is a lot of Canon C300, C300 mkII's in them. So a used C300 might be a cheaper way to go sort of big time. They don't have DPAF on the original one, but for a first effort into the C Line Canon hit a home run on it. And it came out in late 2011. Amazing tech for the time. Still hard to beat today! And even older a Arri Alexa was introduced in April 2010. A more amazing camera.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But I can see why people are interested in a Kinefity. They are pretty cheap price wise. When I was looking at buying something big time years ago no way could I afford a Alexa, or even a C300 when it first came out. So Kinefity. AJA, BM are tempting. They are sort of affordable. And if you are dead set on 4k I guess you don't have much choice. None of the old stuff is 4k other than Red. And well enough said about affording a total Red kit.

There always is the Canon 1DC. Media cost more than the camera but..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kinefinity and BlackMagic are doing the same thing RED did for the industry a generation ago - putting cinema-capable tools in the hands of filmmakers at a fraction of the mainstream industry's price structure. Would Panasonic, Sony, or Canon be offering Raw recording in their sub-$10k cameras without those two brands pushing the envelope? Heck, would Red have even released the Scarlet package without the downward price pressure of those two brands? The big players have had the technology for years. Protecting the higher-priced models explains the strangely handicapped C200 - you can have massive Raw files or an 8-bit codec (?!? what? ) but if you want a decent codec and Raw you still have to pay for the next tier up. Are Kinefinity or BM perfect, no? But BlackMagic made a much better camera than AJA, while using the same sensor as the aforementioned AJA Cion. The difference? Both BlackMagic and Kine have excellent color science. As evidenced by the Cion, color science is not an insignificant part of making a camera.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Speaking of cameras. Well this tells a tale of what people used. Arri Alexa used is the way to go I would say over about anything if a person is Really serious.

https://nofilmschool.com/2018/01/infographic-sundance-2018-cameras-and-lenses

 


With the MASSIVE caveat of *if* you have:
1) the crew / schedule to support it
2) a spine to cope with the weight

 

5 minutes ago, Raafi Rivero said:

Kinefinity and BlackMagic are doing the same thing RED did for the industry a generation ago - putting cinema-capable tools in the hands of filmmakers at a fraction of the mainstream industry's price structure. Would Panasonic, Sony, or Canon be offering Raw recording in their sub-$10k cameras without those two brands pushing the envelope? Heck, would Red have even released the Scarlet package without the downward price pressure of those two brands? 


Bet there is no chance the Raven would ever have been announced by RED if not for Blackmagic and Kinefinity. 

 

Quote

And there are other surprises. "I'm shocked at just how insanely dominant ARRI is over even RED," says No Film School's tech writer Charles Haine.


I'm shocked he is surprised. 

Well, no. I'm not. 

As I've long ago felt that No Film School writers are not necessarily that clued in. 


 

Quote

 

This is one of the worst and least informative info graphics I've seen in recent memory. I am no more informed after seeing this then I was before I clicked on this page...stupid.

 


This commentator nailed it. 

Back when I was starting out, and No Film School was new, I almost religiously read their website. These days I never check up on No Film School.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh come on I spent years handling 22 to 25 pound ENG cameras, weight is not a big problem. But I am not a small person. I say it is a benefit for stability.

You don't need a crew if you are using fast F stops. Not everything is snap focus. There ain't one damn more thing on a Arri Alexa than there was on ENG cameras I used years ago. I didn't have a Crew to help me.  Hell there was damn near that much stuff on the AF100A I had. All Cine cameras a complicated as hell you know that .Any of these Cine cameras are big geared out. Hell look how big Jon's rig is for a damn GH5. You are not going to make many movies with a striped down LX100 bare.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:


Another key point to remember about these listings of cameras used at film festivals, is they're always backwards looking. Never looking forward to the future. 

As films can takes years to make. So naturally the choices they made in pre production years ago shouldn't necessarily be the same you make in 2018. 

For instance I reckon the Panasonic EVA1 is clearly the best general purpose low-mid end cinema camera today. But you would never see it on that list, as it is too new. 

Likewise Canon 5Dmk3 is going to be overrepresented because a film might have started being made 5yrs ago yet only reached release last year. Also, people often use what they have at hand rather than what is technically the "best". Because what you have at hand is the best option! Thus often that is a 5Dmk3 for many people. That doesn't mean however you the keen new filmmaker should buy a 5Dmk3!

Anyway, the lists can still be informative for the broad picture they paint. Such as the sheer dominance of Arri on the higher end. 

 

3 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Oh come on I spent years handling 22 to 25 pound ENG cameras, weight is not a big problem.


And the reports I read from old timer ENG guys of health issues decades down the road is scary. 

Just because they went through that, doesn't mean we have to. 

My mate with the RED ONE would pop a few painkillers over the course of the feature film. And he is a young guy! Younger than me. 

A Sony PMW-F3 is near the max of what I'd want to do for a whole feature if in a one or two person camera department. 

If I'm going ahead with the feature film this year as DoP with a RED ONE then I'm absolutely buying an easyrig and having a good 1st AC to assist. Hopefully that will make it bearable. 

Although I'm fine with the idea of using a RED ONE (or Arri Alexa Classic, similar ish size) with a teeny crew for single day shoots. Or even two / three days. But if it is a multi day long shoot then the grind will get to you. And I care about my long term future prospects. 

 

8 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

There ain't one damn more thing on a Arri Alexa than there was on ENG cameras I used years ago. I didn't have a Crew to help me.


ENG shoots have totally different expectations and standards when it comes to camera movement and lighting, just to name two aspects. 

Of course, when doing ultra ultra ultra low budget features then they do have much more in common with an ENG shoot than a hundreds of millions of dollar hollywood production.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

For instance I reckon the Panasonic EVA1 is clearly the best general purpose low-mid end cinema camera today. But you would never see it on that list, as it is too new. 

Anyway, the lists can still be informative for the broad picture they paint. Such as the sheer dominance of Arri on the higher end. 

 

I would agree with the EVA1. Probably the camera I would go with right now, but man the Sony FS7 MK II is tempting also. Sony color science has gotten better as of late. No no Red for me, Nada. I find the Canon C200 just, well without the 10 bit mid thing I think it is not going to be in as much stuff as a EVA1 to be honest. Average person is not going to shoot Raw for a movie. They can't afford the media or storage. That is the 1DC's problem with me. Beautiful camera though.

I still think we are short changing the Panny GH5s on here. I don't see why a person can't make a heck of a short with it. Hell why not a movie with 3 of them. I see nothing really missing in it other than AF. And who really uses AF in a big time movie. Not many people Yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I would agree with the EVA1. Probably the camera I would go with right now, but man the Sony FS7 MK II is tempting also.

I'm probably guilty of splitting hairs here, but I'd say the best at each price point are:

Low-mid: Panasonic EVA1

Mid-mid: Sony FS7mk2

High-mid: Panasonic Varicam LT

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

I'm probably guilty of splitting hairs here, but I'd say the best at each price point are:

Low-mid: Panasonic EVA1

Mid-mid: Sony FS7mk2

High-mid: Panasonic Varicam LT

 

 

Yeah but is a Panasonic Varicam LT that much different than a EVA1 for the average person now?? I just don't see the advantage to go twice the price especially when the Raw comes out for the EVA1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I still think we are short changing the Panny GH5s on here. I don't see why a person can't make a heck of a short with it. Hell why not a movie with 3 of them.

Not short changing it, just hasn't been mentioned as they're a different category to the others discussed earlier in this thread. 

If I want to find myself guilty of splitting hairs again, I'd say the "best" are:

Low-low: secondhand Panasonic GH1 / GH2 / G6 / G7

Mid-low: Panasonic G80/G85

High-low: Panasonic GH5 / GH5S


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, IronFilm said:

Not short changing it, just hasn't been mentioned as they're a different category to the others discussed earlier in this thread. 

If I want to find myself guilty of splitting hairs again, I'd say the "best" are:

Low-low: secondhand Panasonic GH1 / GH2 / G6 / G7

Mid-low: Panasonic G80/G85

High-low: Panasonic GH5 / GH5S


 

Ehh other people beside Panasonic make cameras LoL. You can buy a A7r mk II now for what a GH5s cost. Not a better camera specs wise but a pretty damn good camera. A6500 is about as good as it gets for 4k. 1080p well... I think I would take a Nikon D750 over the mid-low. Low has to include a BMPCC. Heck a BMCC has to be in there someplace. Used Ursa Mini 4k. We really have a lot of choices now. I would take a 1DC for the cost of a GH5 for 4k. I like the GH5 1080p better than the 1DC I think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah but is a Panasonic Varicam LT that much different than a EVA1 for the average person now?? I just don't see the advantage to go twice the price especially when the Raw comes out for the EVA1.


Yes, the Varicam LT is in a different league to the EVA1. But I would agree with you if the prospective buyer is say a solo shooter or does lower budget shoots, then yup it would be very hard for them to justify the extra cost of a Varicam LT. 

 

18 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Ehh other people beside Panasonic make cameras LoL. You can buy a A7r mk II now for what a GH5s cost. Not a better camera specs wise but a pretty damn good camera. A6500 is about as good as it gets for 4k. 1080p well... I think I would take a Nikon D750 over the mid-low. Low has to include a BMPCC. Heck a BMCC has to be in there someplace. Used Ursa Mini 4k. We really have a lot of choices now. I would take a 1DC for the cost of a GH5 for 4k. I like the GH5 1080p better than the 1DC I think.


It is just my perspective. To a certain extent all of this is just subjective

But the a7r mk2 costs new more than a new GH5S, and significantly more than a GH5. But is it a better camera? Well you said yourself it is a not a better camera for the specs.  And value for money is a significant factor in my ratings, as if it is a poor value then you might as well just move up/down instead on price. 

The a6500 price creeps it up close to the High-low bracket, at which the a6500 doesn't stand a decent chance at all. Should I start splitting again my split hairs and have made a High-Mid-Low Price Bracket? Haha! Maybe? :-P Kidding. 

Nikon D750 is an interesting oddball, as if stills is a high priority to a person then Nikon can make a compelling case for any of the Low-low / Mid-Low / High-low categories with their D5x00 / D7500 / D750 / D500 / D850 cameras. But stills capabilities in my ranking was one of the lowest factors for ranking. 

Likewise BMD is an interesting oddball too.  In my mind I was just ranking the hybrid cameras. As BMD is so very much different, better some ways, worse other ways.  Thus is trickier to make an apples to apples comparison. 

Then do you rank the secondhand price of the BMPCC or the new price? As I think at the new price a BMPCC can't even compete against BMD's own offerings, when the Micro gives you 60fps and an even smaller form factor which makes it even more suited for the kind of things the BMPCC fills a niche for (such as car mounts, or hidden action cameras). 

Plus if considering BMD now, we should even consider say the URSA Mini 4K for High-low King, as it is so cheap (especially if found secondhand). But it is so much worse than  GH5S/GH5 in some ways, but also better in others. Not a straightforward match up at all.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...