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Andrew Reid

Canon XC10 versus Sony RX10 III. The Canon is underrated!

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@Tim Sewell thank you! this was with the Fujicolor 200 profile 

Yeah a good rec709 alternative to Canon LOG is necessary to add to the arsenal of options. My eye is on the Standard picture profile since its the same CINE1 gamma as the C100. The EOS Cinema profile looks really great on skin and is of course rec709.

Next step is to see how the in camera sharpening affects high contrast edges and motion

 

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

Yeah, I was looking at standard too, probably with the sharpening dialled down a little. Would you still add any post LUTtage to that, or leave it as is (your work always seems highly stylised to me, so I'm guessing the former)? As an aside, just for fun, I manually 'legalised' some of my C log test shots then played around with some looks LUTS (DeLUTS) designed for Sony Cine4 and they didn't look too bad at all.

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@Tim Sewell thats awesome! Gotta try that out one day or just open up my wallet and purchas his CLOG deluts!

I want something that I can tweak slightly in post and get a stylized image. The closer I can bring the footage to the final look the better. I read the EBU white paper on the xc10 and their findings show +1 sharpening resolves the 4k detail and +2 in HD are the highest you should go. Just gotta see how it affects motion cadence now ?

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Andrew Reid wrote:
"In Tv the shutter speed is all yours to control on the dial – here the camera tries to leave the aperture open unless the scene is too bright for an 180 degree shutter at F2.8 or F5.6 with the ND filter on… then it will stop down the lens automatically. If you ride the shutter to, say, 1/200 the camera will go wide open on the lens and the exposure should be correct even in the brightest direct sunlight at this shutter speed with the ND filter engaged."

I have a question about this practice. I can see it can work and work well for exposure. But how does the shutter speed affect the way objects in motion look, most importantly people walking and/or running?

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Took some video of my daughter--one using the C300 Mk ii in C-log, the other using the XC15 using C-log-both in 4k. 

I had to adjust the footage to get a similar size---used the same LUT and did some minor exposure adjustments--an voila. Which is which? Honestly, I don't remember.

 

 

 

 

clog 2.jpg

clog1.jpg

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3 minutes ago, kidzrevil said:

Xc10 at the top @tomsemiterrific! I am amazed at how close they match. Dare I say they look identical, wow

Yes, they're very, very close, which is really encouraging. If you have both these cameras you have a fantastic A camera and a B camera, or just buy 2 XC15s, or 1XC15 for audio, and 1 XC10 as a B camera--and you're all set.

I did very, very little adjustment to these two shots. both in C-log, both in 4k, both shooting AWB, minor adjustment in exposure.

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10 hours ago, tomsemiterrific said:

Second attempt...which is which?

which is which.jpg

Yeah, this is a cool test. I don't have any exact numbers, but I know a lot of TV shows use the C300, and I'm sure a few features as well... So the fact that an indie filmmaker could pick up an XC10/15 for around 2 grand and shoot at C300 level is astonishing and one of the reasons I bought the XC10.

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12 minutes ago, mercer said:

Yeah, this is a cool test. I don't have any exact numbers, but I know a lot of TV shows use the C300, and I'm sure a few features as well... So the fact that an indie filmmaker could pick up an XC10/15 for around 2 grand and shoot at C300 level is astonishing and one of the reasons I bought the XC10.

It took me a year and a half to talk myself into buying and XC10--and boy, am I glad I did. It's not only got a beautiful, clean, robust image, it's really fun to shoot. The XC15 makes several things better, and the XLR produces a very clean audio---the equivalent of the C300m2. And the additional custom profiles and expanded color pallet gives you a wide range of choices. I also like that Canon didn't substantially raise the price--selling the XC15 at the original price of the XC10.

I think it's really interesting the way Andrew Reid describes using the XC10/15 for exposure---shooting in TV mode and running the shutter speed up to 200 in bright sunlight. It actually works, but I haven't done enough shooting that way to see how it affects the look of movement..like people walking or gesturing. Any ideas?

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3 minutes ago, tomsemiterrific said:

It took me a year and a half to talk myself into buying and XC10--and boy, am I glad I did. It's not only got a beautiful, clean, robust image, it's really fun to shoot. The XC15 makes several things better, and the XLR produces a very clean audio---the equivalent of the C300m2. And the additional custom profiles and expanded color pallet gives you a wide range of choices. I also like that Canon didn't substantially raise the price--selling the XC15 at the original price of the XC10.

I think it's really interesting the way Andrew Reid describes using the XC10/15 for exposure---shooting in TV mode and running the shutter speed up to 200 in bright sunlight. It actually works, but I haven't done enough shooting that way to see how it affects the look of movement..like people walking or gesturing. Any ideas?

Running the camera in TV mode and riding the shutter speed will affect motion blur, so I personally wouldn't do it, but my intention for the camera is narrative filmmaking... For docs and event work, his method seems like a great approach.

I think @kidzrevil changes the shutter speed instead of using nd filters, so take a look at his videos to decide how you think the motion blur looks. 

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On 10/21/2016 at 11:51 AM, mercer said:

Running the camera in TV mode and riding the shutter speed will affect motion blur, so I personally wouldn't do it, but my intention for the camera is narrative filmmaking... For docs and event work, his method seems like a great approach.

I think @kidzrevil changes the shutter speed instead of using nd filters, so take a look at his videos to decide how you think the motion blur looks. 

yup, I use shutter speed and the in camera ND filter to adjust exposure :-D

also started a new topic on the XC10. Hopefully canon hears us out and updates the firmware

hate to say it but the problems in the XC10 image processing is non existent on the sony rx10ii. No ghosting above 500 iso. The noise reduction processing in the xc10 can be a nightmare

4000iso.jpg

afterimage.jpg

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Just writing to thank Andrew for the review.

I've been an XC10 owner for some time, and mainly use it as a C camera in corporate interviews with two C100s, and it does complement them very well. Occasionally use the 4K when we have to shoot a panel of three people -- just so you can crop in for singles and two shots. The lightness and compactness of the camera are definitely plusses. Main cons for this sort of mundane usage: no waveform (no exposure guide except the basic exposure needle); the colour doesn't quite match C100, even when used with same picture profile; frankly, I think the white balancing sucks, and I'm not sure why -- just doesn't seem as accurate as the C100s or Canon DSLRs.

Apparently, the XC15 fixes some of these problems, by the way.

For run and gun, I've found the XC10 a frustrating camera, because it's not designed to be a durable beast, because you can't pull quick zooms manually, and because (I thought) you have to menu dive to access things like ISO and shutter. Interesting to read Andrew's take on how he thinks the camera ought to be used -- some great tips. Still, for weddings and any sorts of shooting equally as unpredictable, give me a 5D2 or 5D3 over both XC10 and C100 anytime, with all the physical controls, and with their durability and reliability under different weather conditions and temperatures.

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"I think the white balancing sucks, and I'm sure why"

I know what you mean. I've had good results with Cloudy preset rather than manual WB or dialling in K. It seems to actually capture different colours. When I manual WB I get a lot of green-magenta shit going on.

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On 2016-6-4 at 0:48 PM, tugela said:

Keep in mind that these are supposed to by hybrids, not pure camcorders. The XC10 is a piece of crap for stills. If you were to go out and have the option of carrying one camera for all of your imaging, the RX10III does it all, whereas with the XC10 you would need at least another camera.

That was always the big problem with the XC10. The image quality was ok in terms of color, and fine for HD, but resolution not so much when you were looking at 4K. The stills capability is a sad joke. You also require relatively expensive media to access the advanced end of the video spectrum, and, with all due respect to Andrew, having a giant loupe attached to the thing is awkward.

If you want a one stop shop and you are traveling/hiking/generally mobile, the RX10III is the better camera.

Completely agree, plus you get the top-LCD.... which I wonder why the original review omitted that as a "pro" seriously biased and disgustingly canon-fanboy review. People just need to look at images irrespective of what they were shot on. You'll remove all subjectivity as looking at some of his "Pro"'s for the canon, it's pretty obvious which are technically incorrect and completely subjective:

 

Superb live-view quality and touch screen LCD, which is bright and vivid both indoors and outdoors

Sensible menus and clean presentation of on-screen shooting info

Simple and effective controls layout

Compact 24-240mm zoom doesn’t physically extend very far at the telephoto end

Balanced and robust build quality

Lovely Bolex feel to the manual zoom ring

AF doesn’t look electronic, it is almost entirely without hunting, jittering or darting off suddenly

 

Really? If you're going to talk about the "bright and vivid" colours indoors and outdoors let's get some perspective. This is further exacerbated by the following line in the blog "The screen is superb and has better visibility in direct sunlight than the RX10 III’s."

 

So... at which time of day were these test performed? What was the brightness in lumens being recorded? was it cloudy, sunny etc..? Subjective statements have no factual basis other than "i think therefor..." 

 

Also this comment:
"On the RX10 III you find yourself using full manual controls more as the automatic behaviour isn’t as good, and you find yourself using very high shutter speeds outdoors as there’s no ND." What specific test scenario's were you using? Simply using auto at least as a photographer is something I never do... either shoot in Aperture, Shutter or Full manual mode...

 

Also, why isn't it mentioned that the RX10iii does 1/32000 shutter speed vs the paltry 1/2000 shutter speed? That is definitely a pro.

3.8fps on the XC10 vs 14 on the Sony? Really...

 

On 2016-6-4 at 4:32 PM, nikos said:

Hey Andrew,

great review but I would like to correct something...

you wrote "In full HD you get proper tracking and object detection plus touch-screen AF. All this gets disabled in 4K and sometimes the camera will put the background in focus and not the intended subject. It can be hard to coax it in 4K without the touch AF."

this is not true. The touch AF works in 4k. It is disabled only if you enable the rolling shutter reduction mode. If you disable the rs reduction it works perfect.

Thanks again for the review.

 

In hd maybe but there is no noise up to 5000iso in 4k.

Not bad...

 

I am still looking to find out what is going on with the resolution in 4k. I think there is a loss in resolution in c-log that dose not exist in standard profile.

But you are wrong about the mobile run and gun shooter. xc10 is far superior because it has very good, actually excellent image stabilization for video. This is one of the big thinks in xc10 and it is surprisingly good.

I know this is a forum for "film makers" but why would anyone buy a Hybrid and expect super stellar film? I have in the past owned an A7ii, and an A6000 and whilst I'm setting aside some money towards an A99ii (as I have some nice lenses to utilise f.28 28-75, 50mm 1.4) I'm currently shooting with a Pentax K1 for planned shots and the RX10iii for every day.... Not lugging around a million lenses and having great telephoto and wide is a big gift to say the least.

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@vasboz 

"know this is a forum for "film makers" but why would anyone buy a Hybrid and expect super stellar film?"

you're putting way too much emphasis on the equipment and not the filmmaker. The Canon 5D mark ii was once the must have camera. Plenty of guys on this forum shoot with hybrid cameras and get excellent results. You may mistake some of their shots for RED camera material ;)

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