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TVDino

What is the truth about RED's and BLACK's cameras ?

To B or not to B ?  

17 members have voted

  1. 1. What would You recommend me to do if there was a free choice ?

    • Buy the Raven Package - it is better than the competition or ?
      1
    • Buy the Ursa Mini 4,6K - it is better than the competition or ?
      2
    • Buy a third camera - tell me how many bits, formats and so on
      6
    • Buy an old RED or an old BLACKMAGIC - but tell me why ...
      3
    • Rent the stupid bl.... equipment and stop debting Yourself !
      3
    • Balance good equipment with postproduction-stuff like 980TI !
      2


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10 hours ago, IronFilm said:

A few key points are missing....

 

What do you specifically NEED?

What features do you "WANT"?

What are you doing/using NOW?

 

Also, as a general rule: never ever borrow money for a camera!! (Not unless you're very certain about a quick and healthy ROI)

Thanks for participating, I will try to concentrate my previous posts further ...

"What do you specifically NEED?"

1. A Camera able to make a "slow" Bergman-style >90 min. Cinema-movie
    in good-looking 4K 12 bit RAW, preferably with slow-motion-possibilities
    so I can perfect/add psychological colour-tones and lightings in postwork
2. Perhaps a used Scarlet MX (or EPIC MX if affordable)
   + spend on other stuff necessary"
3. And I have access to friends fine EF-lenses, so I "plan to use EF-mount"
4.  But I'm open to suggestions about needed equipment ...

"What features do you WANT?"

Finest grain, true colour and high low-light performance ...  Of course ?
And hopefully the Camera can shoot Ratio of 2,4:1 or well above 16:9 !

"What are you doing/using NOW?"

2 Canon HFS-10; This type was used as a drop camera in "Crank" :grimace:
Fortunately, good locations & clever actors I'm blessed with, already !

Also I don't let GENERALS RULE my life ... ;-)  BTW, I found the missing ...  keypoint.jpg

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35 minutes ago, TVDino said:

Thanks for participating, I will try to concentrate my previous posts further ...

"What do you specifically NEED?"

1. A Camera able to make a "slow" Bergman-style >90 min. Cinema-movie
    in good-looking 4K 12 bit RAW, preferably with slow-motion-possibilities
    so I can perfect and add psychological colour-tones and lightings in post
2. Perhaps a used Scarlet MX (or EPIC MX if affordable)
   + spend on other stuff necessary"
3. And I have access to friends fine EF-lenses, so I "plan to use EF-mount"
4.  But I'm open to suggestions about needed equipment ...

Bergman never had 4K.

Bergman never had 12 bit.

Bergman never had raw.

Bergman never had good slow motion capabilities.

So explain why you NEED them? Or maybe they are really just a "want"? :-) 

36 minutes ago, TVDino said:

"What features do you WANT?"

Finest grain, true colour and high low-light performance ... Of course ?

Then you don't want a Scarlet-MX. You'll get better lowlight performance from even a BMPCC.

 

36 minutes ago, TVDino said:

"What are you doing/using NOW?"

2 Canon HFS-10; This type was used as a drop camera in "Crank" :grimace:
Fortunately, good locations & clever actors I'm blessed with, already !

Going from a Canon HFS-10 to a RED Scarlet-MX or similar is a *HUGE* leap. Is a good idea to learn to walk before attempting to race a marathon.

Plus it indicates you're liking lacking in many other areas too, such as audio / lenses / lighting / rigging / etc and more. So even if you had the budget to buy say a RED Raven tomorrow, you should not! As you'd find once you get all that other stuff, then say a Panasonic GH4 would fit your budget better. 

Additionally, say a GH4 for instance, would take you easily months/years/decades to learn to make the most of it. By which point it would have depreciated away to be worth much much less, it is waaaaay far better to have done that with a cheap GH4 body than to have lost all that money on a RED camera which you never made the most of. 

 

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I often feel the reason people are so in awe of cameras Red and Arri are because they are invariably used in productions where there's a team of highly skilled professionals working with good lighting, locations and post-production/grade. They see the finished shots and immediately think its down to the camera, not all the other stuff that's going into it. 

I feel my work has improved massively in the last year through nerding up on lighting techniques and working with some great people. Invest your money in those sort of things...

 

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7 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Bergman never had 4K.

Bergman never had 12 bit.

Bergman never had raw.

Bergman never had good slow motion capabilities.

So explain why you NEED them? Or maybe they are really just a "want"? :-) 

Then you don't want a Scarlet-MX. You'll get better lowlight performance from even a BMPCC.

 

Going from a Canon HFS-10 to a RED Scarlet-MX or similar is a *HUGE* leap. Is a good idea to learn to walk before attempting to race a marathon.

Plus it indicates you're liking lacking in many other areas too, such as audio / lenses / lighting / rigging / etc and more. So even if you had the budget to buy say a RED Raven tomorrow, you should not! As you'd find once you get all that other stuff, then say a Panasonic GH4 would fit your budget better. 

Additionally, say a GH4 for instance, would take you easily months/years/decades to learn to make the most of it. By which point it would have depreciated away to be worth much much less, it is waaaaay far better to have done that with a cheap GH4 body than to have lost all that money on a RED camera which you never made the most of. 

 

Sir, I don't make Bergman-movies; I make TVDino-movies in "Bergman-style" - not Bergman-like, OK ?
Explain Yourself, why I should reveal MY ideas of using slowmotion ?    Sorry; a secret untill the movie !

Look Sir IronFilm, I thought You would be helpful, so I concentrated/pinned down, what was in my posts,
(did You read them ?) but Your way of helping reminds me of last time I was mugged in broad daylight ...

And I said Scarlet-MX OR Epic-MX !   I'm not some RED-boy, but excuse me for LOL at your suggestion
of using a Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera ?  I can only take You serious if You admit you're joking !

You don't know anything about me and I think YOU succeed best in removing any intention of getting to
know anything about You - I have locations, actors, stunts, celebrities, musicians and more ready ... and
not just because they know my father was a man Bergman invited to work for him, but I can't tell more .

And as for marathon, I was born running !   So, big thanks for a lesson in "how not to behave arrogant !"

Listen IronFilm, I have checked Your movies and I hope YOU someday will invent a great story to shoot;
but my head is like Woody Allens, bursting with stories and they won't wait for clever over-preparations !

I know I can do it and I easily shrug Your Over-lording off, but do You usually try to take the enthusiasm
from people and tell them to LEARN ALL MECHANICS OF A CAR before they drive ???  Angry ? Yes !

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16 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Bergman never had 4K.
Bergman never had 12 bit.
Bergman never had raw.
Bergman never had good slow motion capabilities.

So explain why you NEED them?
Is a good idea to learn to walk before attempting to race a marathon.

Plus it indicates you're liking lacking in many other areas too ...
... would take you easily months/years/decades to learn to make the most of it.
By which point it would have depreciated away to be worth much much less ...
... to have lost all that money on a RED camera which you never made the most of. 

 

15 hours ago, Ed Andrews said:

I often feel the reason people are so in awe of cameras Red and Arri are because they are invariably used in productions where there's a team of highly skilled professionals working with good lighting, locations and post-production/grade. They see the finished shots and immediately think its down to the camera, not all the other stuff that's going into it. 

I feel my work has improved massively in the last year through nerding up on lighting techniques and working with some great people. Invest your money in those sort of things...

 

 

5 hours ago, Zach Goodwin said:

Exactly... It's a gimmick. I could film an entire movie on a cell phone and then color correct it, color grade it, and noise reduce it. Throw a company label on it ship it to a distribution company, never tell the camera used. In behind the scenes footage show a picture of me using an expensive camera and BAM! People automatically thought it was professionally made.

 

In fact do you want to know something, the most popular videos on vimeo do not even dare have technical details of the cameras used and some of them look like they were shot on DSLRs, camcorders, and a lot of others and people do not even think of it in the comment section. That is what I am talking about. You need to veer your audience away from filmmakers and into audience members like me, common people (that probably sounded off), but you'll understand once it kicks in at a second or third thought.


Now I know why FACEBOOK got popular, because the old (black ?) school FORUMS often have inherent or inbuilt ever-so-well-meant
"Guardianism" -
 a therapist who once helped ME stop this, would call it "Maternalism/Paternalism" - and it sips through the Forum-walls,
whenever there's an ever-so-well-meant (but still condescending !) action taking place UNDERNEATH the sharing of experiences ...

I came to this Forum asking for help, on an equal ground and I've been respectfully treated as a fellow-filmmaker by everyone in here,
untill someone apparently needed to assert his selfesteem on my expense !   But many people has self-treated their lack of respect for
others socially & psychologically .   It's a private matter to start self-criticism and often caused by other peoples reaction to the "Bully" .

However the persons "suffering from bullying" still is a compulsive dominant punk and must be stopped as soon as this "shines through"
(Thank You Kubrick & King !) and take a Cold Turkey ... Facebook might be rude and crazy, yet FORUM-bullying is difficult to practice !

So how do I dare claim this reason-lapse ? I don't question that persons filmmaking experince, even when that person questions mine .
  
Maybe EOSHD's moderators will behave like reduser.net = expell me too, for criticising a bad habbit Forums allow/get too used to,
but in my 7 years of instructing actors I have always stopped this behaviour from myself or the crew IMMEDIATELY .  A very sad vice .

AND I agre 112 % that a camera does not make an Emperor - but remember it was another DANISH storyteller who wrote that story ...

PS : Regarding buying expensive or advanced equipment (not assuming envy ! :heart: (More HAPPY icons, please)) ...

*** Thanks for advicing, though I've heard that argument before ... It's not the equipment, it's the many stories I tell ! ***
*** But then again, I as a PC-expert (and a Storyteller) can use my super-computer better than my standard-laptop ! ***

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I'm getting an old Red because every time I look at images it goes Alexa/Amira then Red then the rest. Actually Panasonic Varicam looks to be stunning but it's new and outta price range.

a 2nd hand scarlet X can be had for half the price of a c300 mkii. Less convenient yes, but the picture is amazing, redcode is a genius raw codec and it's got an EF mount.

if you can be bothered to deal with a Red One MX it's even cheaper.

no built in NDs, no XLRs or phantom power (EDIT: both have phantom power, sorry),  expensive accessories and... A world class image.

then all that's left is to become good enough at lighting/directing/storytelling to justify owning the bastard ;)

if you want a cheap good image that's easy to use, a second hand C100 with a Ninja 2 is excellent. Only 1080p but absolutely excellent, and very easy to use.

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6 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

The Scarlet doesnt have an XLR module with +48V? I thought it did.

Dont think he meant Scarlet, Mattias, I read jghardings words this way :

>> If you can be bothered to deal with a Red One MX it's even cheaper.
no built in NDs, no XLRs or phantom power,  expensive accessories and... A world class image. <<

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8 minutes ago, TVDino said:

Dont think he meant Scarlet, Mattias, I read jghardings words this way :

>> If you can be bothered to deal with a Red One MX it's even cheaper.
no built in NDs, no XLRs or phantom power,  expensive accessories and... A world class image. <<

Ok then I dont agree. The Red One MX has great Phantompowered XLR-connections and accessories are cheap as chips.

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5 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

The Scarlet doesnt have an XLR module with +48V? I thought it did.

Aha, but doing some research on the RED cameras brought back claims of no XLR-input on neither Epic, Scarlet or RED ONE !
And certainly no Phantom power ... If this is true, Mattias, I might drop Your idea of getting a used Scarlet MX; REDs homepage
neither mentions this !   At least with RAVEN (and assumeably Weapon) You can add an expander-module with 2 XLR-inputs -
for only $ 4000 ! What a bargain . :(

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Had hoped someone could clarify the Mystery (pun intended)
about the missing XLR-inputs on RED's cameras , but perhaps
this shall be revealed soon enough .  In the meantime I feel
like celebrating Mark Twain for his wisdom of mankind ...

12049141_10205438789710817_7479646971073609402_n.jpg

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34 minutes ago, TVDino said:

Had hoped someone could clarify the Mystery (pun intended)
about the missing XLR-inputs on RED's cameras , but perhaps
this shall be revealed soon enough .  In the meantime I feel
like celebrating Mark Twain for his wisdom of mankind ...

 

The Red One MX has solid and locking mini XLR connections that provide nice audio from a regular XLR mic. No mystery.
 

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28 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

The Red One MX has solid and locking mini XLR connections that provide nice audio from a regular XLR mic. No mystery.
 

OK, thanks, but do these mini-XLR give Phantom-power to mikes ?
And does the other REDs like Scarlet & Epic have mini-XLR or just mini-jacks ?
RED is very vague about the information and can't find the Watt-use either ...

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Sorry, my fault, poor paragraph order, research and clarity! Let me clarify.

the old red one has 4 mini XLR but is in general just an older bigger more cumbersome to use thing than newer reds, but is cheaper.

the Scarlett has two mini jacks so you need an external solution to add  XLR, I was simply wrong about phantom power, it provides it over 3.5mm jack which I didn't know til I dived into the manual, so that was the fault of my poor research/understanding there, apologies!

ive always operated Epics on shoots with no sound or seperate sound so not had to deal with audio on them.

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On 4/15/2016 at 9:53 AM, Ed Andrews said:

I often feel the reason people are so in awe of cameras Red and Arri are because they are invariably used in productions where there's a team of highly skilled professionals working with good lighting, locations and post-production/grade. They see the finished shots and immediately think its down to the camera, not all the other stuff that's going into it. 

I feel my work has improved massively in the last year through nerding up on lighting techniques and working with some great people. Invest your money in those sort of things...

 

There was a Raven clip just posted recently. Unlit in some gym, and some people were getting nervous thinking the camera was junk. Not realizing that any camera is going to look ho-hum under crappy gym lights.

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It's a combination ain't it, if you have good lighting etc, your scene will look even better shot with a top end camera. 

Of course you can shoot anything on anything, but if you can make your scene you've lit beautifully and worked hard for look it's best by shooting on a cinema camera, hey, why not? 

I love the Canon XC10 as a little shot getter, but I'm not gonna say it looks as nice as red. It just don't! It has its use though.

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2 hours ago, dbp said:

There was a Raven clip just posted recently. Unlit in some gym, and some people were getting nervous thinking the camera was junk. Not realizing that any camera is going to look ho-hum under crappy gym lights.

This is what you are talking about:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?143854-RAVEN-and-KWAN-(Footage)

In my opinion, I like the ISO test the guy does... not so much the first clip but the second clip (in the dark with a lighter) thats the kinda stuff I'd like to see...

I wasn't a fan of the 3rd clip, which was the outrage of most of the people on reduser.net.

But then people settled down, after seeing this:

http://nofilmschool.com/2016/04/rare-new-footage-red-raven

In my opinion, just cause you are buying a RED camera does not automatically mean that every single thing you take is going to be gorgeous. The only thing the Raven is bringing to the table is 4.5K resolution, high frame rates, 16.5 stops of dynamic range, and may be some color differences. That's it... It doesn't automatically make the video for you. Don't be disillusioned by the specs either... See Eric's video... If you can't do a similar video with a DSLR.... A RED camera isn't going to change that... 
Let me reword that, if you take footage of dog shit with a DSLR... It's still going to be dog shit with a RED camera... It's not going automatically look like a painting of the Mona Lisa. If you want Mona Lisa, you figure out how to paint well... Which takes time and effort.

Now, remember Carrion...

Some people were complaining here (on eosHD) that with big production, you can do anything... or something to that effect.

If you can't do that... even with a DSLR and a couple of lights (cause I can)... you have A LOT to learn...

The only problem I would run into is location, model, dress and make-up... but even then I can fake that like no tomorrow.

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Guest Ebrahim Saadawi

Can you make a list of what you ''need'' in a camera?

The features you'll absolutely need for making your projects (I know you tried before in page 2 but really didn't, you said you needed a scarlet)

So tell me what do you want in a camera so I'd help you choose the best for YOU?

Things to consider in answering:

-Resolution 
-Frame rate
-Low-light ISO performance you shoot at
-Colour grading/push-ability of the images
-Dynamic range, super important? or do you light your stuff creatively?
-Shoot doc type or narrative/controlled type?
-Need good in-camera audio? XLR microphones or use external recorders?
-Need internal NDs, Auto exposure, 
-Want Auto focus?
-What lens mount lenses will you be using?
-Battery requirements, will you be wanting an internal small battery that shoots all day or fine with a V-Lock?
-Size/weight? can you use a DSLR to rig or want a modular RED/Cube or an FS7/C300 camcorder type?
-Does the brand of the camera affect your clients (example: having a red get you more clients/higher fees than a BM/Canon?)
-Do yo have a preference to a certain company colour sceince? Some people really hate Sony colours and S-LOG and love Canon and ARRI colours or REDs?
-Maximum budget in US dollars

(btw don't fall in the trap of thinking 10/12bit is the holy grail and what makes a difference, it's much more than that. For example, a 12bit raw image from the BMP4K is LESS gradeable and pushable than an 8bit 4:2:2 image from a 1DC, so don't get too caught in the specs, look at the IMAGES, which are made up of sensor quality, processing, colour science, etc, not just the codec. Some camera compress extremely nicely, really really nicely! - the above mentioned points are way more important than a bit-depth spec)

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