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amsh89es335

a7r ii nothing but headaches.

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1 hour ago, Oliver Daniel said:

I don't understand why this hasn't been reported and fixed? (Like with the FS5 issues?)

I think, as you said above, that people are putting it down to bad colour science rather than an actual bug that could potentially be easily fixed. I guess also that people that are going for a colder grade might not notice so much... Alot of the early A7s shots were done at night, which lends itself well to a slightly colder WB.

I have started dialling in a warmer temp than it should be, but it is still hit and miss.

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
31 minutes ago, lafilm said:

Please trust me on this. After viewing hours and hours of 1DC footage, and seeing how people view it, not ONE person has ever commented on any RS issues on the 1D C.

Even in the cinema.

It's better than the Sonys, and the cadence helps enormously.

As far as amazing 4K  60p goes?

Boom.

 

Yea, i cheated on the last video I posted:blush:

This is the Canon 1D X  (Part 2)

Goes on sell,  in six weeks (April, 2016)

It's tempting but used still goes for $4-5k. Just can't justify it at the rate things are going. 

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In relation to motion cadence, I've found that it's pretty pointless to shoot any scenes that pan or track in any kind of way at 24p @ 1/50 if there are noticeable artifacts like RS.  What I've been experimenting with lately is exposing using my shutter @ 30p.  Keeping the base or lowest ISO and adding light where desired or needed.  Then, regrettably 'in post', I apply digital motion blur to my liking or taste.  But the final image is better to my eye than if shot 24p @ 1/50.

As long as there's not a huge disadvantage in how your camera renders 30p vs 24p (moire or even worse RS from higher fps read at equivalent compression as 24p), you should see a much clearer image IMO.  Not as good as less RS from faster sensor readout, and it's not global shutter, but it's my own budget method of combating it in consumer video cameras.  Why would you go and shoot with a slightly blurry shutter like 180 or 1/50th when the digital artifacts are already doing it too?  This is especially true for those who shoot 4k on consumer cams with only 4k 30p, and can use twixtor to control a bit of time remapping as well with fluid motion if desired.

Again, more post work though.  Not real alternatives.

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I use the Sony A7RII (as well as the Panasonic GH4) at work every week.

Fact: My personal Canon C100 eats it for breakfast when it comes to motion cadence, rolling shutter, color science and overall cinematic quality. The 4K cameras might be sharper, but only by a little, and at the end of the day, resolution is the spec that matters to me least. All the fancy tech and high-power processing in the world doesn't matter if the image isn't pleased. And I mean pleasing right out of the camera, not pleasing after several hours in DaVinci resolve wrestling with SLog. Super flat profiles work great for RAW or 10 or 12-bit RGB video. For 8-bit compressed codecs, it's generally better to have a strong REC.709 image right off the bat.

Also, the A7RII overheats after about 10 minutes of recording. Not great for interviews or long takes.

The sad thing is, once upon a time, Sony had a magical camera called the F35, which had more mojo than anything this side of the Arri Alexa. And as much as people love to chalk it up to the CCD sensor, much of that same silky cinematic quality trickled down to the CMOS-carrying Sony F3, which as other people have pointed out, continues to be a beast of a camera, especially at the low, low prices that it now sells for. But somewhere along the way, Sony switched directions and decided to go for brute-force processing power and crazy specs, rather than real cinematic image quality. And as a result, while they have gained tremendous ground at the consumer and prosumer levels, they have ceded the high-end to Arri and Red. I have a lot of friends in rental houses and they clue me in as to what is going out most often:

1. Most people hire Alexas.

2. Can't afford Arri? Go for a Red.

3. Can't afford Red, but still need 4K? Sony, it is.

4. Don't need 4K? Have a Canon C300.

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10 hours ago, amsh89es335 said:

I just sold my A7rii today. After having it for a few months I had nothing but huge headaches. I did many test with a 4k video devices recorder. Besides the worst rolling shutter I've ever seen no one seems to be talking about the horrible judder when panning. At first I thought it was just I'm shooting in 24p and viewing on a computer monitor at 60hrz. But further test in every setting, shutter speed and frame rate seem to have far more than every other camera I've shot with. Another problem is in 60p and 24p 1080 the noise level is bad. I also kept getting bad moire and aliasing in full frame 4k and 1080p especially in the highlights.

Granted as a small compact photo camera it's frickin pretty awesome. But for video the image only looks good in crop mode 4k and as soon as it moves or things in it moves it falls apart. I barely took it on a shoot because of how much testing I had to figure out before I felt comfortable with all its down sides. And is not worth it.

I went back to my Nikon D750 with a external recorder for now until I decided what to get next, but even though the 1080p image is softer everything else is far better. Rolling shutter very little. Noise level very clean upto 6400. Slow motion just as good as the 24p and very smooth. Color science far better. Dynamic range little less. Post with it is super easy. It's a shame this camera has gotten no attention, but it such a reliable camera its what we wanted out of the 5D Mk iii but quickly forgot about with all the 4k cameras that just keep adding more new problems, headaches, time and money all for the sake to say its 4k.

Is it dropping frames perhaps? Maybe panning stresses the bandwidth available to the encoder. That would cause judder.

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15 minutes ago, tugela said:

Is it dropping frames perhaps? Maybe panning stresses the bandwidth available to the encoder. That would cause judder.

Pffff.

I hate most pans because people don't know how to pan. Some made beautiful, breathtaking pans in 24p @ 180° shutter decades ago. If XAVC couldn't provide bandwidth for a pan, that was the joke of the century.

1 hour ago, j_one said:

In relation to motion cadence, I've found that it's pretty pointless to shoot any scenes that pan or track in any kind of way at 24p @ 1/50 if there are noticeable artifacts like RS.  What I've been experimenting with lately is exposing using my shutter @ 30p.  Keeping the base or lowest ISO and adding light where desired or needed.  Then, regrettably 'in post', I apply digital motion blur to my liking or taste.  But the final image is better to my eye than if shot 24p @ 1/50.

Wise, but what does this tell about the video quality of a camera? A very simple way to smudge ugly judder is to monitor your video on a Sony Bravia with motion optimization ON. 

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2 minutes ago, Axel said:

Pffff.

I hate most pans because people don't know how to pan. Some made beautiful, breathtaking pans in 24p @ 180° shutter decades ago. If XAVC couldn't provide bandwidth for a pan, that was the joke of the century.

Wise, but what does this tell about the video quality of a camera? A very simple way to smudge ugly judder is to monitor your video on a Sony Bravia with motion optimization ON. 

A pan on any digital camera is going to cause issues either with image breakup or dropped frames if done too fast, if compression is being used.

There are also a few other things that could cause the problem he has on panning, such as using stabilization of any sort on the camera. Both lens and body stabilization have to be off otherwise you will get judder from that as well.

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I was really tempted by all that Sony has brought to the table recently and I know that some are able to render decent images out of their consumer/ prosumer line, but I started to sense that they were dangling little carrots in their A7 line that didn't really amount to much or would actually cause headaches. Then came the FS5 with a codec wound so incredibly thin that it falls apart while needing a monster processor to cut through it with effects. Fuck that shit.
I've been running the C100 MkII for the past 3 month full time on a doc under difficult conditions. It might not be everyone's thing, but I can honestly say that at the end of the day this camera is a solid work horse with beautiful colour, resolution, and a host of tools to help one get the most out of it. I am continually surprised by what it delivers and have zero regrets buying it. If I was to move towards another camera for use under more controlled shooting environments (monitor and extras attached), it would be the 1DC or 1DX II.

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3 hours ago, BrooklynDan said:

Also, the A7RII overheats after about 10 minutes of recording. Not great for interviews or long takes.

FW 3.0 eliminated overheating in the A7rII. If you can only get 10 minutes, there's something wrong with your copy.

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Fs5 is fine in HD in 1.11 as long as its not shooting in the pitch black. I don't really like the 8 bit 4k much but it is what it is. Slog definitely works better on the fs7 but thats to be expected right. I liked the 4K on the A7rii but to me it wasn't worth the £2k so I sold mine too recently.

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2 hours ago, tugela said:

A pan on any digital camera is going to cause issues either with image breakup or dropped frames if done too fast, if compression is being used.

There are also a few other things that could cause the problem he has on panning, such as using stabilization of any sort on the camera. Both lens and body stabilization have to be off otherwise you will get judder from that as well.

I am fully aware of judder when panning and have dealt a lot with 24p footage over the years. But this is not normal and I also tested it with external recorder with uncompressed 4k signal to proress HQ, had manual nikon lenses and turned off the image stabilizer to rule that out. No change. 

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8 hours ago, amsh89es335 said:

 But its a waste of such nice lenses to use on a image that looks so consumer based. With server rolling shutter and awful motion and bad color science. 

 

The a7rii doesnt have bad colour science.  it's just different to canon and nikon, which are different to red which is different to arri, black magic, etc.  subjective.  There is nothing that careful rgb curves can't sort out.  If specific colour is important it's probably best to learn how to set and use white balance bias, tweek profiles, and learn rgb curves rather than discard a superb imaging machine with such potential for glass.  Glass is way more important than the camera. - being able to select from any type of lens is worth the effort of learning how to get the required results from a camera in my book.

'awful' motion is subjective but assuming you are getting unsatisfying motion and rolling shutter you're probably not rigging the camera properly.  fitting a cage to add weight to the camera and learning how to shoot with it to avoid micro wobble is a very good way to remove rolling shutter - as is the ibis.  

perfect example of a piece of work by someone who got to grips with how to get the most from the a7rii.  lots of hand held stuff..  no motion issues.  lots of colours, no colour issues.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, richg101 said:

Glass is way more important than the camera.

Not to take anything away from the larger point being made here, but let's remember that it's the camera that interprets the image from the glass. So I'd think that they are both pretty up there.

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2 hours ago, richg101 said:

 

 

The a7rii doesnt have bad colour science.  it's just different to canon and nikon, which are different to red which is different to arri, black magic, etc.  subjective.  There is nothing that careful rgb curves can't sort out.

perfect example of a piece of work by someone who got to grips with how to get the most from the a7rii.  lots of hand held stuff..  no motion issues.  lots of colours, no colour issues.

 

 

You're telling everyone color science is "subjective" but this just looks like an instagram VSCO photo. I have trouble believing that anyone who shoots interviews a lot, thinks Sony color is fine and can be fixed with curves. Sony seems to do pretty nice in natural light, but so do a lot of cameras. The canon cameras handle mixed lighting really well.

Here is Philip Bloom's - Shot S-LOG 4K, Graded in film convert. It looks terrible. 

The price of the 1DXii is high, but the footage is going to look nice.

Wood_Carver.jpg

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9 hours ago, richg101 said:

The a7rii doesnt have bad colour science.  it's just different to canon and nikon, which are different to red which is different to arri, black magic, etc.  subjective.  There is nothing that careful rgb curves can't sort out

There is. Because a color range is baked into a highly compressed file. You can't invent more nuances for - typically - skin in mighty Resolve, if they're not stored by the camera.

9 hours ago, richg101 said:

awful' motion is subjective but assuming you are getting unsatisfying motion and rolling shutter you're probably not rigging the camera properly.  fitting a cage to add weight to the camera and learning how to shoot with it to avoid micro wobble is a very good way to remove rolling shutter - as is the ibis.  

I agree. However, some cameras obviously have more issues with RS artifacts or motion judder than others. So by definition of quality (the degree to which certain properties fulfill pre-defined requirements) ....

9 hours ago, richg101 said:

 perfect example of a piece of work by someone who got to grips with how to get the most from the a7rii.  lots of hand held stuff..  no motion issues.  lots of colours, no colour issues.

This seems to be lamenting on very high levels, but particularly the colors (apart from the grading in this) aren't worth mentioning here. Again, in comparison to how the competitors had performed.

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6 hours ago, BenEricson said:

Here is Philip Bloom's - Shot S-LOG 4K, Graded in film convert. It looks terrible. 

Wood_Carver.jpg

Oh goodness, that looks horrible! Are you sure that wasn't one of the ones he did trying to push his mates LUT pack, that honestly looks LUTTed to me, in fact, it looks worse, it looks like a film emulation LUT.

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3 minutes ago, DayRaven said:

Oh goodness, that looks horrible! Are you sure that wasn't one of the ones he did trying to push his mates LUT pack, that honestly looks LUTTed to me, in fact, it looks worse, it looks like a film emulation LUT.

If you go to his blog he writes about the grading.

In short he says that he couldnt care less. If its an important job he hires a colorist. This is made by him and is his style, he gets that many dont like it but oh well.

 

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1 minute ago, Mattias Burling said:

If you go to his blog he writes about the grading.

In short he says that he couldnt care less. If its an important job he hires a colorist. This is made by him and is his style, he gets that many dont like it but oh well.

 

Fair enough! Here's the thing though, I'm looking at a bunch of stills from Amile, they also look terrible, yet we know how great the film looks, so...

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47 minutes ago, DayRaven said:

Are you sure that wasn't one of the ones he did trying to push his mates LUT pack, that honestly looks LUTTed to me, in fact, it looks worse, it looks like a film emulation LUT.

I think so. The way he responds to any small critique is amazing. 

Untitled.jpg

 

Untitled.png

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