SteveV4D

The test video looks a bit dodgy on places.  By their own admission, they didn't test the 4K at a good enough compression setting when compared to the R5, though at least identified an issue with some of the compression settings in doing so.  To my eye, the light levels weren't always consistent.  Most tests film the same footage, with cameras side by side for better comparison; which wasn't done here.  I would be reluctant to make any conclusions based on this video alone.  

As always it is very hard to compare cameras with footage uploaded to YouTube.  Why don't they put it on Vimeo and let us download the original for better pixel peeping.  

On 10/17/2020 at 6:58 PM, Amazeballs said:

https://dronedj.com/2020/10/17/dji-osmo-pocket-2-appears-to-leak-with-improved-camera/

So here is the leak, no exact specs for now but announcement in 3 days. I hope they don't go for 3yo Sony IMX 586 sensor. I hope for somethings bigger. 

The first model has been quite useful in my range of equipment... so high hopes this next version delivers something even better. 

6 hours ago, MeanRevert said:

Yeah, this camera looks amazing. It looks like it'll be a PITA to fly on a gimbal though.

Not every camera has to be designed to go on a gimbal.. 

14 hours ago, Kisaha said:

I am sure the next GH will be even better. Cold Cold!!

A good reason to hold on.  I'm hoping for a GH6, but so far we have this and the fullframe S5.  Hard to see now where Panasonic is developing the future of the GH line now.  

36 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Brilliant:

 

I'm warming to this camera.  I wish it had internal ND and even just a small screen.  Yet I can see it working in my selection of cameras and would mean my MFT lenses would still have some relevance in the future.  If price drops a bit next year, that would be a bonus. 😄

58 minutes ago, Tim Sewell said:

This could have been interesting but:

1. Too expensive. It's around the same price as the GH5S, yet has no screen, no evf, no battery and - presumably - no strap or charger. So WTF, Panasonic - should be cheaper, if anything?

2. The reason we always get for the lack of internal NDs in hybrid cameras is a lack of space. No NDs in this - why? 

If it was priced around the same amount as the Pocket 4K; it would make for a good 3rd camera, replacing my GH4r.  However I agree, if you're gonna make this a proper Video camera, then internal NDs is a must.  Maybe useful for some studios, but that would depend on the external codec.

2 hours ago, MrSMW said:

As this topic seems to be more about IBIS, my take on it below.

Toggle on and off as/if required via a function button. Job done.

Thats a solution.. but frankly the discussion is more about not feeling disappointed if IBIS isn't included, rather than a call not to include it.  

1 hour ago, Mmmbeats said:

Some footage that is new to me (apologies if it's been posted before) :

 

 

Looks nice enough, but doesn't really address any of my concerns / areas of interest.

Yikes, another washed out grade... I've seen a better image from Canon, so must be the style choice... I just prefer grades with a bit more punch... 

6 minutes ago, kye said:

but venues have all kinds of crazy rules about such things and I've had equipment confiscated before (long story) due to various restrictions, so hand-held is a must.

Don't have too many venues imposing those sort of restrictions or even confiscating my stuff... but my GH5 is on standby when IBIS becomes essential.  

I agree IBIS and AF are very useful and for some almost essential to do their job well.  But, it can also be a crutch for lazy Videographers to rely on when there are alternatives.  I was guilty with the GH5 of abandoning my Monopod.  When I brought it back with the P4K, I found I was getting better shots, and my back was a lot better for it too.

1 hour ago, sanveer said:

Fair enough. Except perhaps the BMP4k seems more like what you were looking for. If its screen could rotate a little, it would be near perfect. 

Yep, you're so right and why the P4K is my A camera to the GH5s B camera.  However the GH5s came first and is still a very useful 2nd camera.  Plenty value the GH5s even over the GH5.

2 hours ago, sanveer said:

 

@IronFilmthe issue with GH5s is that it is purely a video camera, lacking both IBIS AND  a higher MP count, so never succeeded as a hybrid. It obviously has other advantages like better low light, higher dynamic range and faster readout. 

Ironically there are many like myself who were buying hybrids not because we needed to take photos, but because we wanted a small, cheap video camera that had interchangeable lenses and a good quality image.  In this, the GH5s succeeds and why I value it.  I think some were comparing the GH5s to a hybrid... and judged its success accordingly.  It was always more a niche item that catered to some users who were shooting only video.

The IBIS on my GH5 is very useful for those moments when I do need IBIS, but its not often I am relying on it.  So I don't knock a camera down that lacks IBIS, as I know I can manage easily without it for much of my work.

I use my GH5s more than the GH5.  IBIS is one of those tools that can be overrated in its importance.  I found it made me lazy with my shots as I relied too much on it.  Its no longer a deal breaker for me in choosing a camera.

4 hours ago, currensheldon said:

It's so true. People freak out about this spec or that spec, but as a whole package, the C70 is WAY more usable than any mirrorless could ever be (as any dedicated video camera would be). 

I agree and why I am trying to shift my gear away from hybrids and onto dedicated video cameras.  Until now there wasn't much choice in this price bracket, but this is a step forward and one I hope other manufacturers will take.

That said, hybrids still have advantages over the C70.  EVF, better weather sealing, fullframe (so making full use of those fullframe RF lenses), IBIS, plus some output external RAW.  Panasonic even has its own audio adaptor, so the S1H is still a healthy competitor to the C70.  Though its poor AF really let's it down.  

For me the biggest advantage for the C70, as you pointed out, is the ND filters and also the wide range of external controls.  Though in the video review posted earlier in the thread, I saw the reviewer was changing settings by controls onscreen and using an external monitor.  So maybe an external monitor is still an advantage when using this camera, given its 3.5" screen size.  I do like the 5" screen size of the Pockets, though its useless outdoors and doesn't tilt; but its a nice size to work with however.

9 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

 

I really think I just need to stick to my original plan which was to give up on replacing the GH5 for another year.

Me too.  I was looking at a great hybrid like the R6 or R5 as a replacement, then saw the issues it had.  A7SIII is only 12mp (too low for photo) and I've never warmed to Sony  anyway.  Panasonic still feels it needs an update to bring it fullframe 60p rather than crop and add great AF to an S1H successor.  The C70 as  a pure cinema camera feels like the right direction for me, but is also hampered by Canons cripple hammer regarding features their hybrids have and the competition gives at a much cheaper price.  

I feel I am still waiting for that perfect camera for me.  And a worthy replacement to the GH5. 

7 hours ago, Towd said:

 

Yeah, I've been told that it is still common for a film to get mastered at 2k and then have the post house do some fancy up-res for delivery in 4k for cinemas that have 4k projectors.  There are more and more films that are mastered in 4k though.  I just find it interesting that some of the biggest tent pole films are still mastered in 2k.

If I sold 4K to my clients that was upscaled HD, I would be mortified, but studios have no problem selling 4K blurays that are not 4K masters.  It is frankly criminal.  There should be labels that confirm a 4K master or a 2K upscale.  But of course, its not so well regulated, and people can be fooled with clever algorithms.   Reviews of Endgame show this deception and I kick myself for reading them too late.  I felt watching it, I wasn't getting the 4K experience.  But until you see it, you don't know what the results will be.  

2 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I might if I did not have an XT3, constant f2.8 zoom, 30 mins recording and an Anker power bank.

95% of my ceremonies are under 30 minutes and it’s very rare for anyone to speak for more than 30 mins speeches and if it’s getting close, I hover, wait for some laughter, hit stop, hit record and we’re good for another 30 mins.

Mostly I used the camcorder last year but some super low light stuff, I just dedicated an XT3 and it was faultless.

Oh how lucky you are.  Even my civil Ceremonies are cutting it close for some in regards 30 mins.  Church Weddings, minimum 40 mins and if you record a few mins before as well.  Speeches are also on average 45 mins for them all.  Occasionally I get a 15 min or 20 min for all my speeches.  

I'd never use a camera with a clip limit again for unmanned cameras.  And I try to avoid them even my manned camera.  

4 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

I've used the DMW (if I'm getting it's name right) and it's a really good unit.  I'll probably pick one up even if I get an external recorder, and even if I demote the GH5S.  The thing is though, I'm pretty sure you are still going to want to strip the camera from time to time, whether for transport, or for a top handle, or for a smaller package.  This makes it one more thing to manage and set up, one more thing to forget to pack! (I only very rarely have a packing incident!).

 

The C70 has a top handle I believe that can be forgotten.   😁😁   I don't think one less external unit for audio makes your life easier regarding items you need for your filming.  Or at least for me.  I always run 3 to 5 cameras on a shoot, plus various recorders, lapel mics, zoom mics, loads of different cables and adaptors, gimbal, drone in some cases, loads of tripods.   Getting the C70 won't cut down on my gear.  I'll still be running it with other cameras. 

If I get it, it will be for the excellent AF, ND filters, Canon colour in a small camera unit that is dedicated to video use and not a hybrid.  Making my life easier it won't.  🤣🤣

2 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

There is some footage in this one.

 

Great video review.  I found the footage to be a little too washed out, but thats the style of grade he wanted, and not necessarily a reflection on the final image. 

Suggestion is there AF works as well with some EF lenses via the speedbooster, which I find encouraging.  It means I don't have to invest so quickly in RF lenses and can make do with what I have.

I won't preorder as this is Canon and after the R5, I'm still wary of any further catches, but on spec, this camera has a lot to offer.  Few things I wish were different, but well...  Still debating this with the Komodo.   But I've got time to wait and see what early reactions when the C70 is finally out there.  

25 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

Yes, either an external recorder or the DMW XLR adaptor would have been a better set up than the one I rigged (using a Beachtek preamp).  But for ease-of-use plugging multiple sources directly into the camera is the winner.  That's something that none of the smaller units can do - even the Pocket cams have only one balanced audio in if I recall correctly.

Of course quality, and control, are different matters, and I do have my eye on the Mix-Pre series recorders to be honest.  But there are times when you just want to plug and go. 

I'd much prefer to own a C300III than the C70, but financially I don't think that will happen for a while yet.

There's the value proposition that I'm trying to highlight - as you say, the C70 is closer to the GH5S in price, but it appears to be closer to the C300III in features and output.

I would say the Panasonic adaptor is as versatile as plugging directly into the camera itself.  Mounted in the hotshoe, its really becomes a part of the camera from that point on.  

I agree the C70 has features more associated with the C300 than the GH5s.  The mini XLR maybe a weaker link compared to full XLR connectors.  Much like I prefer full HDMI over micro or mini.  I only use the Pocket mini XLR for a shotgun mic for better quality background sound.  I would be reluctant to use it for bringing in audio from  say a sound desk.  I'd rather capture audio separately with maybe a backup into the camera.

2 minutes ago, AnthonyBert said:

I don't really want to be controversial here, but Arri and Red are not in your list either! I'm not sure why the way Canon runs their business seems to trigger so much anger with you. If the other cameras are better, then you know what to do!

Given the target members of this site, ARRI and Red are not on many of our radars, aside from the recently announced Komodo.  I wouldn't be surprised they don't get much discussion here.  This site has always focused more on the DSRL and Mirrorless hybrids shooting video.  So Canons low position in a top 20 of a site  called EOSHD is quite surprising.

9 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

A while back I did an event shoot with my GH5S.  I'd checked my audio setup well in advance, but developed a problem just before the event was about to start.  What followed was a panicky troubleshoot through my audio-route going into the camera.  I had to unplug and replug 9 different connections (running from mic receivers to preamp to camera, back to preamp, and up into my headphones) before isolating the problem just in the nick of time - not a particularly comfortable experience!

I tend to capture audio externally with a recorder rather than feed into the camera, which adds another layer of connections with minimum benefit to me.  There is a hotshoe audio unit for the Panasonic; were you using that?  Not sure what the difference between this and internal audio of the C70, aside from proper XLR connections vs mini.  You get the same level of access to controls.

The C70 isn't out yet and no guarantee it will behave differently to the GH5s.  Its a lot closer in cost to the GH5s than to the C300, which would have been a better fit for your situation.

8 hours ago, herein2020 said:

My wish is that all of this so called H.264 and H.265 hardware accelerated encoding actually worked. I'm sure it helps but it never seems to be enough to make actual editing smooth and I always end up making proxies anyway.

With that being said I have pre-ordered the C70. I figure its better to be on the list and cancel then to wish I was on the list. I have been thinking more and more about cancelling though, although this is my dream gimbal camera the more I think about the type of jobs that I do the more uncertain I am that I would be willing to use a camera this costly to do them. Weddings, events, music videos, and corporate work simply do not need a $6KUSD camera on a gimbal. The R6 is what I truly need and the camera that is in the right price bracket for my work but we all know how that turned out.

 

With RAW or ProRes, the C70 would be my main camera, and worth every penny.  Without that codec, it would run side by side with the Pockets.  Gimbal work, run n gun; as you say, an expensive investment for such use. 

It's a shame that Canon and Sony have the corner on reliable AF as both companies frustrate me with their products for different reasons.  I really wish Panasonic would get their AF sorted and then make their own version of the C70.  I'm sure they'd be less conservative with their features, though their L lenses need more options.  It will also be interesting to see if BM responds to this camera.  Something sitting between the Pocket 6K and URSA 12K could be very interesting.

Ultimately I hope the C70 sells well and to be honest, many do need a reliable, workhorse of a camera, so it should.  I'ce become frustrated with hybrids recently as I rarely shoot photos and prefer a dedicated smaller video camera now.  It could be the C70s greatest legacy is forcing other camera manufacturers to look into their own version of it, and that is something I would welcome.

21 hours ago, Towd said:

Meh, even Avengers: Endgame was mastered in wait for it.........  Digital Intermediate (2K) (master format).  At least according to IMDB.

Granted, it was captured in ArriRaw 6.5k...  go figure.  

That explains why Endgame looked quite soft to me in places both on my local cinema screen using 4K projectors and also on my 4K Bluray.   Ironically movies shot on 35mm decades ago, look more detailed than many stuff shot more recently.