SteveV4D

I have managed to shoot just fine with the internal battery, metabones speed booster and EF lenses, recording to cast cards.  I also rig mine up for professional work to record to SSD via Tilta cables and rig, which has never once let me down.  And the SSD drive is so much quicker to download or even work from if needed.  Plus storage space saves so much hassle.

The image and editing workflow with BRAW puts it miles ahead of other cameras with H264 or even worse H265, both in adjusting exposure and colour.  Evem today, working with both BRAW and H264, I struggle to accept the limitations of H264.  The BM image is so much more gorgeous to work with.  

In an ideal World I would own several C300, but I don't live in that World.  For me, the BM Pockets are the next best alternative.  Combine BRAW with Davinci Resolve and you have a wonderful setup for filming and editing.  Its not perfect.  Nothing is.  There are some risks, but I've shot over a hundred of Weddings with them plus countless Corporate shoots and not had an issue that has prevented me from getting the footage I needed.  

If I was building a number of cameras from Panasonic fullframe alone, I would have a S1H, S1 and S5...  each offering their own advantages.

However I am looking at one hybrid to balance the Pockets I own, which because of RAW and my preference for BM colour, work the best for the image I am going for.   

I am looking to add maybe the C70 or Komodo or if BM offer something similar, plus a fullframe hybrid next year.  Unless Canon can deliver a decent spec reliable hybrid camera 🤣🤣, my money is more on the S1.  The 6K upgrade would be very useful in some occasions and I prefer bigger cameras to smaller ones.   Plus full-size HDMI is important for any streaming or connection to playback screens which I have sometimes been required to do.

33 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

 

I still think it’s the pick of the bunch, at least for my needs vs; XT4, R6, Z6ii and A7Siii. But as I keep saying, the ONLY real test will be my first wedding of the year in April next year because nothing is like the real thing, - it just cannot be replicated.

Similar situation to you.  I'd give the R6 a miss, CineD tests show awful rolling shutter and DR.  Z6II no 10bit internal.  A7sIII limited as a hybrid due to 12mp.  If I'd go for a hybrid, I'm now tempted by the S1, given the recent upgrade.  Good price.  AF not so good, but hey, I'm a longstanding Panasonic user, so I'm use to its quirks.

Unless something better comes along and I'm in no rush.  Spending has been suspended until work properly resumes.  There will be new cameras next year I'm sure and maybe my perfect hybrid will be one of them. 😉

21 minutes ago, Mmmbeats said:

I keep getting a bit worried/distracted/obsessed by the highlight rendition with this camera.  The wedding film, above, doesn't look as nice overall as the previous stills.  Don't get me wrong, it's a nice piece, and I'm sure the families will be delighted, but the highlights do look quite abruptly clipped in places, and it does lend it a bit of a DSLR-y feel.

Am I being paranoid?

It was also shot on the R5, so its hard to judge the C70 on this video.  I'm not sure which clip is which, when watching on via YouTube on my phone.  Some colours look great, others less so.  Some handle highlights better than others. 

First P4K lasted a year but became unreliable after a firmware update.  Returned and got a replacement free of charge and its been great.  I would say given the abuse I put mine through, it's done better than some of my GH Panasonic cameras I've owned on the score of reliability.  

I'd say take a chance and put the camera through its paces when you get yours.  I put mine through a Wedding 2 weeks after getting it and it worked very well and rarely let me down.  There are plenty of people out there relying on P4K or P6K for paid work and I think that speaks for itself. 

1 minute ago, MrSMW said:

Take Canon for instance, - the R5 deliberately has overheating issue in order to protect the C70 which does not have IBIS so it steals less sales of the R5.

I'm so glad other manufacturers don't follow this line of reasoning.  My 4K TV shuts down after 2 hours of use in order to protect the higher end models.  🤣🤣

Most here understand a tier system for manufacturers products; its the method its done that can irritate.  Panasonic offers extra features on the S1H that the S1 and S5 lack.  This is how it should work and not actually cripple otherwise great video features just to protect other models.  Though Panasonic did risk alienating their clients giving the S5 free vLog the S1 lacks.  Their recent fireware update did help to address any cries of unfairness.

Ultimately I think Sony and Panasonic balance the needs of different products better than Canon.

46 minutes ago, mkabi said:

Lets be honest, its not that there aren't "halfway" decent or perfect cameras - its that our expectations are growing. The benchmark is moved slightly or completely every 3 months.

I disagree.  I think its more a case that the issues we have with manufacturers still have yet to be addressed.  After so many years, we are still talking about Canon crippling their cameras, Panasonic failing to give us usable AF and Sony being poor at skin tones.  

Yes, the technology has gotten better.  We now have 10 bit 4K, 120fps 4K and external RAW, but the core issues many have wished to see resolved still remain.  Also no hybrid has yet to provide internal ND, something many of us have requested for years.  Canon C70 has added it, but its not a hybrid.   

You talk about 3 months, yet my nearly 4 year old GH5 is still proving hard to justify replacing given the choices available to me.

I think many look to mirrorless hybrids to act as hybrids as they shoot both.  So the A7sIII falls short there, if HQ photos is your thing.  However there are equally many using hybrids mainly or solely for video and value the small form factor and features unique to such cameras like IBIS.  This camera works better for those users.  

Sony still has a reputation for poor colour and I don't think the A7sIII has done enough to discourage that view.  I did like some of the promo vidoes.  In fact, I preferred them to Canons R5.  And I would normally rate Canon higher for IQ over Sony.

I still feel though that Sony lacks many of the features that Panasonic cameras have.  Plus I feel Panasonic has the superior IBIS.  Though Sony benefits from AF the Panasonic lacks.  Its a minefield trying to decide which fullframe hybrid system is right.  No one has yet managed to get it completely right.

I tried upgrading to the latest version of 16 recently it knocked out CUDA support for my graphics card.  Not sure why?  The previous upgrade I did a few months back worked okay.

I'll hold off 17 for when I have time to play around with my system and not have outstanding work need finishing.

There's plenty to be done to improve.  Silly things like of you zoom into the video, you can't drag the image by the mouse, you have to hold a key and use the scroll wheel depending on direction.  I'm sure in Premiere I could just move the image by clicking and dragging. 

1 hour ago, stephen said:

Initially also used BMPCC 4K back LCD screen. But it is very uncomfortable to shoot with extended hands with and combo that weights 1.7Kg (BMPCC 4K + Speedbooster + Sigma 18-35mm f1.8 + ND filter). Also as you said, almost impossible to see in a sunny day. Tried viewfinder as well. Much better but still not optimal. And ended with external monitor. For run and gun it is the best option by far. Can hold the camera at waist level close to the body, no strain on hands muscles, monitor is quite bright (1700Nits) and viewable in bright day light. Monitor is permanently attached to the camera and it weights 500g more but again will gladly hold them at waist level close to my body, rather then with extended hands at 30sm in front of me.

 

I'm sure plenty do use an external monitor, but equally plenty like me use the internal monitor.  I can hold on the camera easily with speedbooster and a 24 to 105 lens.  With viewfinder, I've shot handheld footage and not felt uncomfortable.   

I may look at an external monitor next year.  But I want it to be low profile and not weighing too much.  However I'd still use the internal monitor.  Its quite clear for me indoors and cloudy days.   

My biggest issue for the P4K is wet weather rather than the monitor.

47 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Everything is a matter of opinion, but on one hand you have dozens of 'reviewers/content creators' unboxing a product before (sometimes) going outside and waving it about...and then you have filmmakers:

Entirely shot on the S5 with the 20-60mm f3.5-5.6 and the 85mm f1.8

YouTube won't do it justice...

 

 

Filming is dynamic.  Some of the editing choice verge on the gimmicky.  But the colour grade is a bit off for me on most of the shots.  Not sure it makes me think the S5 is wow.  

1 hour ago, stephen said:

Looked at several clips from S1 shot at internal  V-Log 10bit 4:2:2. Skin tone come always reddish after color space transform in Resolve and Red color is a little bit off in general. So it requires some work at post. Not quite as nice as BMPCC 4K BRAW. So for me plan is to use external recorder most of the time. And in this case S1 seems to be the better option. 

I'm still looking for a hybrid.  Though my eyes are more drawn to cameras like the C70 and Komodo for my next purchase.  Photography plays little in my work,  but a replacement for my GH5 still gets used and could use updating.  The S5 seemed more obvious than the S1, but that update to the S1 means the camera is now back in the loop.   It looks the better choice than the S5 for features.   

1 hour ago, stephen said:

BMPCC 4K, 6K have BRaw internal but can you use them without external monitor ? Not really.

The answer is yes, because I do and I have seen others using the camera with the internal monitor.  Yes its hard to see in daylight, but only with bright sunshine.  I use a viewfinder that attached to the screen via magnets when it gets too tricky.  Plus a sunshade when fully rigged. 

What's your work?  Do you need AF for video?  Do you want a camera to do both?   Do you own any lenses and have you factored that into your budget.

Pocket 4K/6K are brilliant if you want to work with RAW files and practise colour grading.  Plus you get Resolve for free.   You could pick up one of the cheaper Sony or Canon models for Photography.   Though Canon EF lenses would work with the P4K (with adaptor) or P6K natively; making Canon a better choice for your photo camera.

Panasonic S5 is a brilliant combi option.  S1H if you want better quality.  But it is more than your budget.  

If you need video AF, a Sony will be ideal for a hybrid.  I'd suggest the Canon R6, but its overheat still makes it an issue.  

1 hour ago, herein2020 said:

I went into more detail with my particular workflow here: https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/47655-davinci-resolve-lock-adjustment-layer/?tab=comments#comment-381308.

 

I had a look.  Our work differs.  Weddings I don't have a discard bin, and I'd rather have all the clips to hand until the project finishes.  Once the project is archived, I delete the project folder and all original files.  I can't reuse Wedding material, aside from some shots of buildings and even that rarely works.  A summer shot of a venue looks out of a place in an Autumn Wedding and I work a wide variety of venues anyway to make it practical.

I colour tag each camera and each camera has its own layer.  This way I can colour correct one cameras files by hiding the other layers.  I use shared nodes for common corrections for a single camera, then tweak with new nodes if needed.  With Resolve, I can make a change in the RAW settings and apply it to multiple clips.  This saves me time, if I want to do a white balance correct to say the evening dance footage, of which there will be loads of clips. 

Typical Wedding, I have 400 to 500 clips to work on, so I don't waste too much time with metatags.   I manage the clips in Resolve and assign to sub folders within the software as I go through them.

41 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

My C200 shoots RAW and I've never shot a project that needed it.  As others on this thread have mentioned, personally I think RAW is overrated, the H.264 options are good enough for my clients and everything I do in my workflow is for speed. 

I'm not shooting the next Hollywood blockbuster, I am shooting for clients that are not paying me 1 penny extra if I take longer to complete their project or if their project size is 500GB vs.

This is just my opinion, but the spreadsheet approach sounds terrible to me, 

 

I think you have the wrong idea about how I use the spreadsheet.  Its there to keep track of the drive location of each project.  Its not there for each clip.  Each Wedding and Corporate job I film has a numbered folder with all clips and material, plus a duplicate back up folder and its this I keep track of.  I rarely shoot something for multiple projects.  So a single folder, with subfolders within them, have all the video clips I need to work on that project.  In a normal year, I will film over 80 Weddings, plus have another 10 covered by another video guy, as well as a dozen Corporate jobs.  Each Wedding, I am doing a Full Length, Highlights and Teaser.  Plus some have shortform videos, Marryokes, Guest Messages and Cinematic Video.  Thats a lot of editing work per year.  So my workflow and BRAW doesn't slow me down at all.  If anything, BRAW has sped up my workflow as it is considerably smoother to edit and colour correcting it is so much easier. 

RAW is no different to editing H264.  Theres no extra procedure for it, unless you wish to click to edit the settings rather than use the default filming ones.   There are lots of urban myths over how hard it is to edit RAW and how it adds to the workflow.  Only people avoiding or can't use it will say its over rated. 

Then again, the term over rated has been applied to almost any aspect of video.  Slowmo footage, drones, gimbal, sliders, time-lapse, log colour profile, 4K, 10 bit, RAW, fullframe.   Shall we just say that every aspect of video is considered over rated by some as there will be those who will use it and others who will justify not using it.  😄😄

I'm not shooting a Hollywood blockbuster either and BRAW for me is about having an easier time editing,  having the options to fine tune the white balance, which is considerably easier with RAW over H264 and being able to push the grade for those shots that need it.  

7 hours ago, herein2020 said:

That is pretty cool, especially if it has a Windows Explorer type interface that lets you see the first frame of all of the clips in the folder, I use this feature as well with Windows Explorer to quickly select clips to preview.

With BM RAW player installed, you see thumbnails in explorer for the RAW files, just as you would any video file.  So I don't have to import into Resolve to see what each clip is.  I don't really use the player to playback the files, as I do this in Resolve, but I tried it now and it works very smoothly.

6 hours ago, herein2020 said:

My workflow is probably different from most; for speed I don't import anything into DR or LightRoom until I've checked it with an external app. I set up all of my organization in Windows Explorer and pull footage into the editing app after previewing it in VLC (video) or FastStone (Photos).  For me this is faster than having to do this in the app and makes archiving, storage, and editing more efficient.  My folder structure and metatags let me find almost any project and any footage within seconds across all of my storage devices without having to open the NLE or photo editor so if VLC couldn't read the video footage that would impact me quite a bit.

So your choice of camera and codec is dictated as much by VLC as the editing software.  I couldn't work like that; I prefer a more flexible workflow.  I simply have a spreadsheet of all my projects, with columns for Main drive and backup drive to tell me where they are.  My file management works very well for me without relying on video players.  I found them too quirky for me, and of course with RAW, you can't use them anyway.  Aside from BM own one.

What happens should a time comes when RAW is available to you, and worth shooting for a project?   Panasonic, Nikon and Sony have or soon will, external RAW, Canon R5 has internal already.  Its only a matter of time before internal RAW becomes the norm, as technology rarely stays still for long.  Everyone says they are happy with 10 bit.  But then I had people say that about 8 bit when the GH5 first came out.  Now its almost taken for granted you shoot 10 bit.

39 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

For me its still a PITA. 4K60FPS 10 bit 4:2:0 H.264 out of the S5 in Davinci Resolve starts dropping frames after a color grade and a few transitions are added even with a 14 Core i9 CPU and RTX 2080Ti video card. I find it easiest to just generate optimized media for everything.  I'm thinking BRAW would be effortless but it would come with its own problems. I like to preview clips in VLC and Windows Explorer before importing them into the project, with BRAW that workflow would have to change.

I recall I could never play back 10 bit files on my computer outside of editing software.  So I got use to just watching and working with them all in the edit.   They end up there anyway, and I can preview them all I like.  This is better anyway as they are log colour and I can apply the default LUT to see them how they were shot.  Not sure VLC allows that for 10 bit files, even if my computer can now play them.

39 minutes ago, herein2020 said:

this is also why I don't care as much about RAW as I do about 4K 10 bit internally recorded. Yes BRAW 12:1 would be nice when its time to edit the footage but 10bit 4K recorded internally to dual cards is WAY more important to me as is a single lens mount that will work on everything from my C200 to my 5DIV to my S5.

10 bit H264 isn't too bad to edit, but behind BRAW for ease in editing it and what you can do with the image; its using H265 for 10 bit that really makes editing a real drag.   The limitation with 10 bit in cameras is the codec. 

16 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

People also have to a bit realistic, when we are talking about external recording. These Z cameras are already much smaller than normal dslr and an atomos V is about same size as a flash. So nowadays we have raw video it about same size as a Nikon d5500 camera and a flash. I work on film set with Alexa's here in my country as set photographer. People should come and see the size of those cameras to have an understanding of how small those mirrorless are compared to normal video cameras.

 

I don't always limit my wishes to what is realistic to expect.  This a casual discussion not a debate.  Even so, what is realistic for features depends as much on manufacturers choices than what is possible with technology.  BRAW internal may seem a foolish wish for any other camera than BM; until another manufacturer comes along and offers it.  The P4K took a lot by surprise offering 4K RAW so cheaply.  It would have seem unrealistic a request before then.

Its not as if the technology isn't there to deliver on such expectations.   Nikon will gives us BRAW external, whilst Canon provides Raw internal.  If the R5 had a fan and been made by Panasonic that cripples its cameras less, doubtless its RAW video recording would be less impeded.   Who knows what Panasonic will offer next, maybe with a GH6.

The frustrating thing I find about Nikon, Canon and Panasonic is that they are all on the cusp of delivery something I would really value as a filming tool, but each lacks something that truly sets it apart from the competition.  

4 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

 But now I see people complaining why it is not internal or $ 200 dollar upgrade. I mean in two years we went from 8bit to 12 bit raw in 2000 usd FF hybrid camera. Largely because of Nikon. It's been like 5 years people have been complaining that we were stuck with 8bit (which is right) and only now that you got the likes of Sony and Canon giving 10 bit etc. and people are still complaining.

 

 

I would pay more and actually buy the camera if internal BRAW was available.  I don't expect it tbh.  I know how the World works.  But it would be nice.  Its less a complaint and more a wish.  Dont be so touchy and jump down on wishful thinking comments 

7 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

Sincerely, how can people complain that much I don't understand. I am hyper critical of not putting 10bit but for RAW update how can people complain. The original z6 came out 2 years ago for 2300 USD, the z7 for 3300. Now the new one is 2000 and the z7 2700 usd. It means that for example the z6ii is cheaper, while having 60p 4k and better AF, dual card slot etc than the original one including the firmware update. You are comparing it to the Panasonic S1H  which is 4000 usd. That is twice the price and I don't even know if it has 60 fps RAW.

I am not comparing it to the S1H.  My point about the S1H was separate to my thoughts on the Nikon.  

As for the Nikon updates.  The whole thing was handled badly by Nikon.  Promises then delays.  Just to confirm as I may have my wires crossed by how complicated this has become....   if I were to buy the new Mark II version of either the z6 or z7, would I have to send it back to get the RAW upgrade.  Its not simply a software download... If so, that's pretty silly.  

I don't object to the extra cost, more the way it is rolled out.  I'd prefer manufacturers release video focused models with the extra features included rather than pick and mix extra features as paid updates. 

Its great that another camera manufacturer have embraced BRAW; such a shame its Nikon, who have ham-fisted it with a paid upgrade and limited their internal recordings.  Why not simply include this upgrade with the new release?  I'm sure they delay these things a few months to justify charging extra for it.  The S1 did much the same, though I suspect a  last minute change of heart led Panasonic to instead offer it for free for a limited period.  Maybe Nikon will do the same, but I won't hold my breath.  

I have a wish that Panasonic would allow a possible S1H successor to output BRAW.  It would be a great addition and make it worth buying for me, even if the AF is a bit crap.  😄

To the uninitiated, the P4K rigged up can look like it means business.  On my shoots, what impresses more as a Professional job are the extra gear like lights and boom mics.  Not to mention your approach to a job.  Turn up thinking and acting like a Professional will carry more weight than your camera. 

1 hour ago, benpicko said:

 

 

 

 

I've seen better stuff posted on the GH5/GH5s Facebook page as examples of those cameras, than these videos.  If they are to entice users to fullframe Panasonic, I don't think they work for me.   🙄