BenEricson

On 1/25/2022 at 8:25 PM, TomTheDP said:

Yeah the benefit of the 444 version as well is being able to do 60p out of a single SDI.

The Sony menus are a pain but the files are amazing to work with. It doesn't like overexposure but it's phenomenal in the shadows. The camera is truly amazing in low light. I honestly would pick it above newer full frame options. The color and noise is so much nicer.

Agreed. They nailed it with that camera. The electronic EF mount works really well. I really really wish it did internal ProRes. I wouldn’t have sold mine.

3 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

I just tested the color between the C70, Alexa, and Pana S1. The C70 was very close to the ARRI. I was surprised how great the color and roll off were. This was using mixed lighting too.

The C70 is a great image. In the right setting, it definitely looks great. Arri beat it in skin texture, color detail in the shadows, over exposure, color separation, etc.

I’ve shot very consistently with the Canon C300 Mk2 for the last 5 years. The C70 is such a close image. I’m sure the OG C300ii would feel very close to the Alexa as well. The DGO sensor is great and all, but the C300 Mk3 / C70 is also 5 years newer than the C300 Mk2. I’m honestly a bit underwhelmed if anything.  It’s just so similar. Cleaner... but again, it’s 5 years newer.

Things like false color, better auto focus, long GOP, cleaner C-Log2, 4K/60p are all things that impress me more than the DGO sensor. I’ve shot projects where I used the C70 and C300ii next to each other for interviews. For better or for worse, I very much doubt anyone could tell the difference, even when looking at the raw source material. 

The highlights are great on the C70, but anything pointed into the sun sucks. You get the clipping blob in really bright sources or the sun. Once you see it, you know what to look for and it is always there. Pocket 6K probably does it worse.  Komodo a little better. Film handles it by far the best.

Ive said this before... but the Long GOP 4k codec on the C70 is so great. You get a cleaner, sharper image than the older generation Canon cameras and it looks really great. The files are also almost 3x as small.

I’m interested to see what effect the CRL files will have on the image. If the files are even a little sharper and just a bit noisier / textured, that would be great.

4 hours ago, Django said:

 

what "clay" skin-tones?  always thought Canon was well regarded when it came to skin tones.

Maybe it has to do with the high resolution / noise reduction / skin softening. I just get iPhone vibes with the whole color pallet and texture.

25 minutes ago, kye said:

 It's a pity, as RAW makes you have huge file sizes or dramatic sensor crops, but it's better than nothing I guess.  Maybe you could also go old-school and partner these with an external recorder that does a high-end Prores variation?

It actually is only 640mbps vs 410mbps. (I think that's the rate spec.) Pretty hopeful it'll do okay on the M1 laptops.

1 minute ago, independent said:

True, but there's something beyond jello...I hate to pop open a can of "motion cadence," but I've inadvertently noticed something smoother about the Komodo's image during camera movement than that of the R5 in even 8K raw (and others, but that's my other camera right now).

It's almost that the pixels are somewhat dancing/moving/winking in the rolling shutter, whereas the Komodo's image seems more stable, even during handheld moving shots. All this contributes to less of a video look. But the R5 is outstanding in static shots or slow pans. 

I completely agree. I can tell the difference by the way shots settle on the Komodo or Film. It just looks different. The sway is different.

I'm just saying, the jello goes beyond the average "motion cadence" discussion. This was an artifact I have never seen on the bigger Canon Cinema cameras. This was either due to the weight, or the Long GOP compression... Or maybe both. Reminded me of the t2i.

It would be fun to shoot a high motion scene on both cameras and look at the differences. Maybe I will do that sometime.

7 hours ago, kye said:

Are you noticing this look from the RAW as well?

If not, it's rather odd and indicates perhaps excessive NR perhaps?  If it is in the RAW then that's even more strange and I really would know where that would be coming from...

Pretty positive this is due to noise reduction. If raw has "more noise," then there will certainly be more texture and gradation. The Komodo can be REALLY noisy if exposed poorly, but it also has more detail and color. The benefit of the Canon is that it is basically dummy proof. It looks good in 95 percent of situations. You certainly don't need any post noise reduction.

I'm not completely sure what this means. Maybe this is a way to get the noise reduction fully removed from the camera. Record in the raw and just use the 10 bit files without the NR?

10 hours ago, kaylee said:

this is the elephant in the room.

wheres my 5d3 raw color? "clay" is right, skintones seem flat with no depth or translucency

Exactly. Or 1DC.

2 hours ago, independent said:

Still think Komodo has it. 

Global shutter and Recode Raw > Canon Raw.  That patent, may it burn in hell, is still doing its job.

 

Agreed. The global shutter kills it. I've seen some crazy jello in 60fps on the C70. I think this might be partially due to Long GOP compression only...

1 hour ago, Django said:

Canon claims the Raw update on C70 will unlock the full DR potential from the sensor so maybe expect an extra stop.

DGO sensor also does wonders for shadow noise so its a whole different exposure method (to the left) and has much better shadow recovery.

Interesting... I think the C70 suffers most in the highlights. The "sun blob" on most digital cameras is very much there. Remember though, there will be added noise in the shadows due to the raw codec.

3 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

What is the benefit of these over WideDR Rec.709?

No grading needed. Wide DR is still a profile that needs some grading. Those profiles also look really nice in lowlight settings, (ISO 5000 etc.) There is really no need to save the detail in the blacks or the highlights. It reduces the noise and time in post.

The REC.709 non Wide DR on the Canon C70 is really really bad in my experience. Wide DR is great. I just think for baked in profiles, those will be clutch for some jobs. 

13 minutes ago, kye said:

It depends on how you're using the camera.  I love the EVF / IBIS combo for vintage lenses on my GH5 but shooting low angles doesn't lend itself to using the EVF and high angles would require dozens of radical leg extension surgeries to enable me to use the EVF!

Yeah, but he's not even using the EVF when shooting at eye level... Amateur hour. He's doing the camera a disservice.

3 hours ago, herein2020 said:

Oh I agree, but no other Cinema camera was so specifically targeted towards hybrid shooters. Kai's video shows more awful handheld footage, the electronic IS just looks so jittery even after the crop; even when he was holding the camera stationary you could see jitter in the footage.

If the only way to get smooth footage with this camera is by using stabilizers then it is a complete fail as a hybrid camera in my book.  All the codecs in the world don't matter if the footage looks like what I've seen so far for handheld use. I already have a C200 for locked down tripod work, I don't need a $10K+ camera system that I can't shoot handheld.

 

 

 

Look at how this idiot is shooting though... There is literally an electronic EVF. Using that alone would make footage probably twice as smooth.

EVF with any IS lens would be totally fine. I've done it with my C70. The main issue is lack of EVF for stability on the C70.

2 hours ago, Spectromagix said:

Yet I haven’t heard of any of those “Hollywood” customers purchasing Cinema EOS products - I certainly don’t see them at the top of the sales charts. Maybe I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure ARRI and RED are more popular at the Hollywood level?

I just don't think the Canon Cinema cameras are there in terms of skin tone, color depth, and dynamic range. Don't get me wrong, it looks great... But they're kind of cheating the skin tones. There's this kind of clay look, similar to the processing the iPhone does. I own the C70 and I notice this too. This is great for a lot of applications, but even with "8k raw" this is still the same image since the C300 Mkii. It is not leaps and bounds better.

That being said, eye tracking, 10 bit internal, dual ISO, full frame sensor. All of this is incredible to have. I think people need to pick the camera that makes sense for their shooting style. This is a killer gimbal or second camera. Obviously. 

The sun clips the same as it has since... probably any c-log on any Canon EOS camera.

The notable updates.

- The ability to record 10 bit XF-AVC HD + Raw at the same time. Very cool. 

- Added Time-Lapse recording.

- Added EOS Standard and EOS Neutral. Also very cool. I've been bummed since the beginning that they removed these.

On 1/16/2022 at 9:25 AM, currensheldon said:

Yes, I'd say it's pretty significant. 12-bit Raw on the C300 just gives an added depth and richness to the image that 10-bit can't achieve. I was always amazed by the C200's raw and found it pretty stunning, but the DGO sensor adds a whole extra level of usability.

This update makes the C70 probably the finest cinema camera under $9k. I also love that it's an even lighter version of raw (645mbps), which will make it way more useful in a variety of situations.

Time and tests will tell, but I would think the 12-bit image should be a pretty big jump in IQ - and that's saying something coming from that sensor.

On 1/14/2022 at 9:01 AM, Mmmbeats said:

So RAW recording rumoured to be announced soon.  Do people think this will be a significant upgrade?  Any experience of C300iii RAW?

I would just think if the project is that important, why not spend the money and go with a more suited camera system? The Alexa's 444 ProRes files likely look much better and will save time and money in post. Maybe even the RED saves you money because of the editing speed.

End of the day... If you want the best image quality, you'll have to deal with a painful work flow. The joy of the Canon Cinema Cameras for me is the ease of use. All around.

23 hours ago, gt3rs said:

CRL plays back real time in Resolve on a gaming notebook and I’m talking about 8k so 4k is no problem at all. I shoot 95% in CRL. 

There is no need to transcode it at all maybe with other NLE is needed but not in Resolve on a good machine.

 

This isn't really practical though... I'm talking about Premiere Pro, 3/4 tracks of video, multi camera etc. At least the Komodo will easily cut in premiere.

Just curious, what kind of content do you shoot with CRL and why? I really only use the Canon Cinema cameras for corporate work, doc projects, interviews, etc. Anything higher end is probably Red and I do a bunch of personal projects on film. 

I just don't see RAW video on the C70 to be totally transformative to the camera. Maybe I am wrong? If it removes some of the plastic look and feel of the Canon cameras, that would be awesome.

When I was pretty inexperienced back in 2014, I shot a ton of RAW video on the original black magic pocket. I quickly realized that the magic of that camera comes from the sensor. You can shoot ProRes and get nearly the same images, but with a much easier work flow. It is nearly impossible to tell the difference in a final edit. Of course, this all depends on the setting etc. 

13 hours ago, Hannes Famira said:

I just checked the website and the specs say that the Video Sampling does not go beyond 4:2:2. Are you sure about that 4:4:4? Where can I find that? This is where I found the info: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicvideoassist/techspecs/W-VASS-04

With the external Pix recorder, (like the one above) and the 444 model, it possible to record 12 bit 444 ProRes files. I’m not sure if this works in 60p though.

Honestly though, the color depth on the F3 is fantastic. I was always super impressed with the 10 bit ProRes files.

40 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

V90 SD cards top out at 90MB/s which is 720 Mbits/sec. They are saying 645Mbit/sec so that makes sense since there is always protocol overhead.

interesting! Okay thanks for clearing that up.

33 minutes ago, kye said:

Just a small point, but if I take this sentence literally, then you're saying that somehow when light enters one of the photosites on their sensor that it's also somehow activating the photosites around it, which I think violates the laws of physics.  Every other source of softness exists outside of the sensor, being the optical performance of the on-sensor filters, in the subsequent processing of the signal after the sensor, including debayering etc.

For proper evaluation of the sensor, you'd have to evaluate RAW stills, taken with super-high resolution glass, stopped down, in black&white, and under ideal test conditions.  The limit on resolution is far more likely than people expect to be the optics or processing / compression rather than the sensor.

Besides, 2K is pretty close to the threshold of what can be seen at normal viewing distances, and while that's debated, 8K is easily outside that discussion.

Yes. You’re right. They’re also doing a lot of noise removal etc. It is a really clean image. Maybe raw improves things.

Watch some 4k uploads on Vimeo of the Komodo and then watch some stuff with the C70. There is a huge difference in sharpness and color depth with the red. 

I suppose this is like the iPhone though. The good and bad is the processing. The processing hides noise and artifacts, but can remove detail etc. Ultimately, the processing an iPhone does, is optimal in most scenarios.

32 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

Hearing this makes me think this is just another buttered up spec feature rather than offering anything of practical value.

I probably should back up on what I said about Canon Raw Lite. I don’t have any experience with the codec but have some second hand experience. My very talented editor friend was complaining about how ridiculously slow the files were editing. (30 min to import an hour long interview.)

I recommended re-compressing the CRL files to 12 bit 444 ProRes. That seemed to be a solid work around. Again, maybe the work flow gets better / smoother as premiere releases updates. A free added feature is always welcomed. You’re right though, they just want to sell units and compete with the Komodo / Pocket 6K.

22 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

Rumors are saying the CRAW LT on the C70 will be internal to SD cards at 645Mbps. That’s highly compressed. How?

The C70 uses SDXC cards. The write speed maxes out at 300mbps... 

I really wish they had went Cfast 2.0 or even the OG like the Komodo. 

On 1/13/2022 at 1:32 PM, Andrew Reid said:

They should put a proper codec in there like ProRes because their 10bit 422 is very sluggish to edit at the moment. Anyone else find the same?

Works great for me on a Mac Pro / SSD in premiere. C70 files?

On 1/13/2022 at 4:38 PM, Kino said:

 

According to this source, Canon will also announce the following: RAW option for the C70 (this must be external); RF cinema glass; and C300/C500 8K cameras.

Is it Raw Lite? That codec sucks so bad. I’ve never heard of anyone using it, unless they’re capturing in RawLite and converting to ProRes 12 bit 444.

One of the best features about the C70 is the amazing Long GOP compression. It is really really impressive. The files are tiny and look amazing. It is very hard to tell the difference. 

Im also not sure how or why they would create 8k output on those sensors? The reality is that their sensors lack the sharpness of RED or Sony. I would love the ability to run an external recorder and get 12 bit 4K ProRes 444 from the raw signal. I’m not sure if this is possible.

The C70 4k looks VERY similar to the C300 mkii. (Which is known for having a softer image.) In fact, those cameras are so similar that they match very very well, but there wasn’t a huge leap in quality... I would even argue some of the older color profiles just looked better. (Log2 BT.709 was removed from the C70 and C300 Mkiiii. In my opinion, it better and easier to grade than Log2 C-Gamut,) in my experience.

I will say, the C70 sensor is definitely cleaner in the shadows, especially when shooting Log2... High ISO performance is basically the same but a little worse on the DGO sensor... but again, the difference isn’t HUGE to my eyes.

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

$2000 now on eBay!

Wild. The images are so nice. 4K upload on Vimeo holds up in 2022 easily.

17 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I Always think of this frame grab with a 1DC. Pretty unbelievable. No, I didn't take it.

 

Really nice. I always loved how clean and balanced the Canon baked in images look. (assuming it is based on the contrast levels.) We've gone through years and years of poorly graded LOG footage...

I own the Canon C70. They removed a lot of the nice baked in profiles that existed on the Canon C300 Mkii. I'm convinced the OG C-LOG on these older cameras was better. There's something lacking with the C70. A lot of brown / red images rather than yellow / golden.

6 hours ago, mercer said:

And at its core... cinematography is about making pretty images.

Technically, I don't think anybody on this forum would be considered a cinematographer or DP.

I think she did a nice job with a camera that isn't known for its lowlight capabilities.

 

Right, but the word cinematographer or DP is really just a fancy name for a camera person. Saying it is “nice videography” sounds like an effort was made to sound condensing.

All labels aside. Great camera work. Some of those shots could easily be throw into a feature. 

I think the Komodo does well with the color depth. It reminds me of the richness nighttime scenes have with 35mm. The A7 Sony stuff didn’t look as good to me.

On 1/7/2022 at 10:30 PM, A_Urquhart said:

Some nice images does not make a cinematographer (or DP).

 

Nice videography.....sure.

I don’t think anyone ever said that... I would have to say this is cinematography, though. She’s using a particular vintage lens, camera, filtration, image processing, and shooting at particular time of day and weather conditions all to get that look.

Everyone acting like this is super easy. You’re all literally sleeping and she’s out shooting. 🤷🏼‍♂️

“Oh I could do this for sure. It’s not that good. Nice video.” Weird.

21 hours ago, bjohn said:

He shot it in ProRes and added halation and film grain in Resolve 17. It looks great to me.

I just like the color. The halation and especially the grain aren't really my thing.

On 1/4/2022 at 6:54 AM, bjohn said:

Some nice family beach footage shot recently by the cinematographer Tiago Pimentel on original BMPCC on a Crane3s gimbal with a Zeiss 21mm ZF.2 lens; he graded it in Resolve and used one of Resolve's built-in Kodak emulations.

 

Really cinematic stuff. I own the Red Komodo and the Canon C70. This camera honestly produces a nicer image in a lot of ways. It's really wild.

On 1/2/2022 at 4:53 PM, webrunner5 said:

I think one of the best buys now used is the Sony FS5. I have seen them for 1200 dollars. Crazy. The variable ND alone is worth that. They are a really small cine camera. Maybe not the Best CS but hey..

How to with John Wilson is shot with that camera. It definitely has a video look, especially in that show. It is certainly a deal. Sony cameras depreciate like no other.

1 hour ago, Tim Sewell said:

Now I actually think that Phil has a great eye, but I fully support the rest of your comment.

Fair. He does. I guess my point is that driving around all night capturing footage alone can be challenging. Most people love the safety and convenience of the daylight hours. 

On 12/30/2021 at 2:07 AM, sanveer said:

Seems quite average. The image seemed way too flary, and the movement is dull. 

I disagree. Average for who? A experienced filmmaker? YouTuber?

Give 100 people the same camera setup and have them shoot locked off shots, I promise you it won't look this good. At least half of those 100 would be shooting ducks in a park like Philip Bloom.