majoraxis

I work on productions every month with cameras that are $10K ish plus. 

And I don't see myself as particularly abnormal, I'm not someone working exclusively on fancy film sets, lots of my shoots I'm on are still very low budget / indie. 
 

Exactly x2
 
 
But owning the camera isn't what @thebrothersthre3 was talking about, he said "there are a lot of people on this forum that work for production companies that use 10k plus cameras or rent 10k plus cameras for projects" when you replied to that with your 1% claim. 

 

I have noticed this in a couple of comparisons between BM and Alexa.
This is one:
This is another:
(The shots by the window show the window frame to be very green on the Alexa).
Both tests were shot by professional DPs, so I can't imagine that they both screwed up in the same way.  Of course you can fix these things in post, but it's interesting to note.

Blackmagic's IR pollution is not a color science issue and it's not a complicated issue at all. The IR filter they use over the sensor (it is the same one in all models) does not do a strong IR cutoff so that you get more "pure" color. As you add ND filter and use full spectrum IRND ones, in theory you shouldn't get IR pollution.

The reason you get some is IRND are not perfect and the blackmagic IR cut filter is a touch too weak. Also in most scenarios without ND the IR pollution is fine but under strong hot lighting like tungsten, IR can show up even without ND.  Blackmagic is very stubborn on this issue and it's something you have to accept. They won't change.

One other issue is that the speedbooster manufacturers and others have claimed that the glass that blackmagic uses for their IR cut is too thin and creates focusing and Chromatic aberration problems as well. That's why ever blackmagic camera with a speedbooster has always had to have a custom designed one.

A lot of BM users rock IR cut for every shot or even use internal IR cut replacements like the rawlite OLPF.

If you're an S16 aficionado then the new BM cam is great news. Its not going to change the world of course...who implied that? But it does change the S16 shooting world if thats your thing. If not, thats OK.
But if you are into S16 glass this cam is great news. Its the same size as the broadcast ursa. As pointed out a few posts ago there has been uptake of that body for S16. Why? Because its the only way to get genuine 4K in S16 format. I think its around the $4000 USD mark iirc. Whats nice about that body is it allows one to use B4 broadcast lenses - and some still do use B4. In fact there are some VERY nice HD B4 lenses out there - but super expensive. Its about the right tool for the job. B4 broadcast lenses have a big focal length range. Certainly you dont want the old tired SD B4 lenses, but there are some real gems in the B4 range.
Bring on the new era - which it seems we are entering with the new sensor.
The new 12K Ursa. Same size as the Broadcast Ursa. What does it give us over the older Broadcast Ursa? 4K @ 220 fps ! 6K @ 120 fps ! Plus a new sensor tech that we dont know a lot about yet. That sensor may prove to be a new standard or it may not...we just dont know yet. But 220/120 fps options are HUGE if you want to use S16. Now we can go as high as 6K. Only the best S16 glass will do for this though. But if you have those lenses it looks like there are good shooting times ahead.
If you are not an S16 guy then what I have said here hardly impacts you at all. None of the implications of this cam to S16 would excite you at all. Why would it? But if you ARE into S16 then this cam is hotter then ...well lets leave it at its hot.
The other thing about this cam is its 2 cams in one for me.
I have a set of Mamiya 645 glass converted to PL by Duclos. I have the extremely rare Mamiya 500mm f4.5 APO and the Mamiya 200mm f2.8 APO also converted to PL by Duclos. The 300mm Mamiya is still in the workshop being converted to PL. 
With this cam I can use both sets of lenses on the same body - my S16 glass that I love and my full frame 645 glass with lots of choices in focal lengths from my set. All on the same body with the same sensor with a res from 12K to 4K at my chosing. This is pretty dammed revolutionary! So yeah if that makes me enthusiastic then I am enthusiastic about the cam. I dont see 10K as expensive for what this cam offers.
I still love the 1080p footage from the BMPCC as well. Choose the tool from your box for the job at hand.  

Your right. I should not have down-voted that comment. Did it because of hijodeibn's recent extremely negative posts in several threads on the 12K. I read his "forbidden word in this community (Ke** Ameri** Gre**)" as a way to start an argument in the thread.

I'd much rather have a discussion, and my downvote was an inappropriate knee-jerk reaction. Hope to continue to see you in the forum.

IDK.......
 
It may not work for YOU but it may be just the ticket for others.
 
I can see this being a great tool for wildlife doco's using S16 lenses. On a tripod in a hide sitting and waiting for days at a time for THE shot.  I have a very nice selection of S16 glass in PL, ......Angénieux , Canon.  Some of the S16 lenses have impressive reach for thier size - S16 lenses really help when you have to hump all that gear into the bush. 6K @120 fps down scaled to 4K. Whats not to love? A long S16 lens shot at 6K - this allows for re-framing and punching in with a 4K delivery - if I need that. I f I dont I can just down scale to 4K. If I need 220 fps I just shoot at 4K. I see this camera as an exciting enabler.
4/6K from an RGB digital sensor seems to give S16 glass a new lease on life. And those frame rates...where exactly do you get that on S16 other then here ???
OK so you have no use case.......good for you. But to exhibit such a small mind to say this is just no good for S16....hmmmm, ok then fella...if you say so. You keep believing that while the rest of us explore what we can do with our high end S16 glass and 220 fps @4K. A game changer I would say. A TRUE game changer. I can see the price of S16 glass going up because of this, much like the effect the BMPCC  had on S16 glass some years ago. Before the BMPCC, S16 glass could be had for little. Not now. Looks like history may repeat here.
Its going to be interesting to see how this pans out.

Surprised no one is talking about what the 12K BM cam means to S16 lenses.
6K S16 on a digital RGB sensor seems like a HUGE thing to me. The frame rates on the S16 crop are icing on the cake.
 
There are a fair few S16 enthusiasts out there with a good selection of S16 PL mount lenses. Seems like this camera could be a game changer for them.
Thoughts?

Sorry about this post guys.   I was a little harsh and came off as an asshole.
I don't like the magenta cast on @John Brawley 12K footage. 
His technical break down about the sensor was awesome and @John Brawley does some incredible work.

Thanks for sharing.  That's a fantastic write-up by @John Brawley.

Y’all should read johnbrawley.wordpress.com 
it answers a lot of the assumptions in this thread. 

To my knowledge it took over a decade for RED cameras to penetrate this market and finally become an industry standard. But that was a time where the debate between film and digital media was on it’s peak and RED had a double challenge to face.
BM has definitely the dynamics to become the next RED. If Ursa 12K proves to be a reliable body, it offers too much innovation for anyone to ignore. I think this is the first time that sensor technology, codec and editing software are placed into a straight line by any company, no? Even the mighty Sony tried to maintain such an ecosystem and failed.

RED had a similar reputation not all that long ago. It takes a big innovative splash to make people change ships...once they do you have a chance to shake up the market. I think this camera will make enough RED users jump ship and then it all comes down to this specific camera and how good/reliable it is. There’s no reason to think this camera isn’t how Blackmagic enters that conversation. None at all.

That’s in all the groups I’ve visited. Each group has a set of “patriotic” members who bash other cameras, make tree and backyard videos with their small tilta wooden rig , theorize on what if’s  and no real footage.

I agree that the body should be a bit more durable and maybe they should have made it more sensor in a box, but the camcorder body is a proven design conducive to out of the box filming. In addition 
Grant said that this release is for the high end and all we can do now is watch what happens with this camera. 

I'm waiting for a side by side test like Tom Antos does..  I think we can safely say that this is best skin tones we have seen out of a Blackmagic camera.  As far as compared to other cameras, that remains to be seen via a comparison video.

Blackmagic replaced a pocket for me no questions asked, so their support was excellent IMHO.
I think Grant mentioned the 12k having a redundant power supplies in his presentation (I could be wrong...) and that the 12k was completely re-engineered.  I think they are going for the highend and know that reliability and performance under extreme conditions is a must.
If it is 100% reliable and good in low-light with these specs, at this point in time, they could charge double and I think they would get a number of high end productions and rental houses adopting them IMHO.
I think they have priced it at $10k because they think they are going to sell a lot of them and I think they are right, but the adoption rate will be slower then if it were a $7k or $8k camera.

I'm waiting for a side by side test like Tom Antos does..  I think we can safely say that this is best skin tones we have seen out of a Blackmagic camera.  As far as compared to other cameras, that remains to be seen via a comparison video.

PRICE
RED Helium Ranger + Monitor:
$31,400 
URSA Pro 12K + Accessories:
$11,500
The new URSA Pro is 37% of the price of RED's comparable offering. SPECS
RED Helium Ranger:
8K @ 60p (12:1 Compression)
4K @ 120p (Cropped Sensor)
URSA Pro 12K:
12K @ 60p (5:1 Compression)
8K @ 110p (No Crop)
 
ANALYSIS
The new sensor technology that allows you to shoot at lower resolutions for higher framerates is arguably the most important aspect of this camera. That and...price. There's really no reason to be in a RED at this point in time. I guess if you hated money you would stick with them? I'm scrambling to find one area that RED would beat BM in and I can't think of one. It was always codec but we might just be there with the release of this new version of Blackmagics Color. Add in the full ecosystem compatibility with Resolve and the fact that it's almost 3x the price. Seriously, if Blackmagic wanted to make a dent on the high end I think they just blew it up. RED is going to have to innovate AND lower their prices (drastically) just to be competitive again. You will have outliers and people that stay loyal to the brand for whatever reason...but if you're unbiased and just looking to make the right purchase, I don't see how RED makes any sense. As of today at least.
Seriously a crazy release and few days here. I don't know if I have ever pre-ordered>cancelled pre-order>pre-ordered new camera in a 48 hour window before. 

🙋🏾‍♂️

All you say has a good point in the back of it but two variables can help to change a bit:
modern sensors' higher sensitivity and fast small sensor coverage glass as lighter as more handy we can get ; )
On the other hand:
We finally have 100% RGB Color coverage (now) !
 

I’m a prospective StormTrooper buyer and to say  that this announcement doesn’t throw a kink or doesn’t spill over into RED’s Komodo market is probably a mistake. Yes I agree with the Komodo being a perfect B/C cam and a entryway into RED, but with  $2k more you have a future proof (5-6 years) of high quality A cam capability! I’m quite sure there are plenty Komodo line standers thinking about investing into this ecosystem. 

The problem with doing that is it put them head to head with the FX9, which as excellent AF. They gave themselves a different category to avoid direct competition in the film space, additionally they put themselves as a leader in one specific area of the market that benefits their longstanding area of expertise, namely live television production.  

I think this camera as long as it is decent in low light and has no fixed noise issues will keep its value for a lot longer than most past Blackmagic cameras, which had issues from day 1. 

no debayer. it´s a pefekt 4k, 6k, 8k, cam. id the 14 stops are true this is the next step in motion picture imagers.

i understood it´s not a bayer sensor and you can scale the image resolution on sensor to get full uninterpolated color at 8k raw s-35. which is pretty neat.

The big issue with the ursa 4.6K was the fixed noise pattern in deep shadows and higher iso's. 

If this camera is a win at 3200 iso and with Dynamic range its a RED killer for sure. Combined with the fact that its shooting higher RES than the RED helium at less than half the price. Plus recording straight to SSD's, ND filters, and built in monitor. It just comes down to reliability after that.