Danyyyel
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Posts posted by Danyyyel
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I don't see it at all in this way. Nikon tried and tried setting a foot in the video world and just never could even with the best hybrid cameras to date. With the acquisition of RED, they just kicked the door open. I mean they went from nobody, to the company that can boast the last "The Flash, Dr Strange and squid game were shot on their RED cameras". They have gone where no Canon or Panasonic camera has gone before... So, this is why I don't see them getting rid of the RED brand for the foreseeable future.
Even more so that they don't want to lose that very specific Hollywood user base. Their luck is that the latest global shutter 8k vista vision (larger than full frame) sensor camera, will ensure them some time as it will have a following in the action and VFX heavy movie market.
So my guess we will see the Nikon mirrorless cameras that will cater for the lower end of the market, with the likes of z6iii to Z9 having redcode raw, color science etc, and above that, newer models of Komodo to Vraptor, with Nikon blazing fast autofocus and Ibis, that would make them very competitive against the likes of Sony. As nikon already has not only the tech, but also the volume and infrastructure. What I mean in terms of volume is that the xspeed 7 chip in the Z9 already can do 8k 60 fps raw, with the autofocus, blazing fast viewfinder and IO, in one chip running is a dslr style body!!!! As jarred himself said, it is very very powerful. This could replace the ASIC chip that cost 50 millions for red to produce for just some thousands cameras. The Xspeed will be produced for millions of cameras and is already in the 2000 USD ZF camera. They also have their professional NPS system, that could get service to RED owners around the world.
So my only question is if Nikon will produce a FX3 style of camera. That is one that is about same price as a z8 camera. Or will they have Nikon mirrorless 700 USD to 5500 USD, and Red Komodo 6000 usd to V-Raptor X 30 000 usd. I don't see the RED brand disappearing for at least decade if ever. It could be the genesis of Toyota.
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I sincerely don't think their is much money in pure cinema cameras. Most of the money would come from the likes of the Fx3, fx6, Fx9 type of cameras, that would sell tens of thousands, rather than a few thousands at best. RED revenue was like 158 millions USD. That is peanuts from a 4.5/5 billions USD revenue company like Nikon.
They are more trying using the brand name for the whole product line as a minimum. Their might be special version of the Cinema z8-z9 with RED raw etc, or the whole line uses it. Nikon knows that video is as important as photo in a photo camera today. This moves put them higher than even the likes of Canon in terms of branding. Tomorrow Nikon will be able to put "The Flash" or "Dr Strange" or "The Squid Game" on their marketing material.
Both companies could also share technologies. Tomorrow Red could launch a Komodo/Raptor with state of the art Ibis and autofocus, to compete with Sony Fx6 to Burano, Venise. Sony which has been their main competitor. And we might see some of those global shutter sensors either shared between the cameras on some models, or some specific model for Nikon still.
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3 hours ago, ac6000cw said:
I agree - Sony will be doing image processing before the H.265 encoding (e.g. noise suppression, de-Bayering, sharpening etc.), whereas you might expect less of that happening with N-RAW - isn't it meant to be raw sensor data, warts and all?
H.265 is a sophisticated codec, so I'm not that surprised 4:2:2 10-bit 8k video at 500Mbps from the A1 looks really good, especially on a static image like Andrew used in the N-RAW vs H.265 vs CDNG comparison article.
Nikon a bit naively, have a very conservative (Contrasty) Nlog which make it look very bad compared to others on DR test. On CineD on its Nraw test, it scored very low in the Sythetic DR imatest results. But It shines in the truer real life latitude test. In their the Z9 is better than every Sony camera by at least half if not 1 stop better DR. +4 stop above and - 5 stop lower. In fact their are big surprise in this test, from Canon baked in NR RAW, that makes it look good, but once you have real life latitude it falls apart... except for their C70 with the DGO sensor. The biggest surprise for me is the Venice 2, at least a stop bellow the Z9!!!
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9 hours ago, kye said:
In Andrews tests, the N-RAW wasn't better than the h265.
Soooo, are you asking if R3D files are better than h265? While I haven't done a direct comparison, I'd have to say yes... yes, I think they might just be better!!
The big difference is that when Nikon Nraw came out, their was no real good workflow. Their is actually a big DR difference between Nikon h265 and Nraw, because Nikon has been very conservative in the Nlog which is quite contrasty. CINED today has a nice set of DR test of the different cameras. And as Nikon featured very low in the Synthetic DR test with Xyla chart and Imatest. It shines in the truer real life latitude test. In their the Z9 is the better than every Sony camera by at least half if not 1 stop better DR. +4 stop above and - 5 stop lower. Even better than the Venice 2!!! Which is at least 1 stop lower. I think Sony perhaps focused on speed of the sensor, 3 ms. Because their are other Sony cameras that look better.
The VV Red Raptor was half to a stop better and this test really show how the Alexa's are better, with at least 1,5 stop higher for the traditional Alexa and at least 3!!! for the Alexa 35.
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Just now, mercer said:
I'm not sure internal raw video will have the impact that people think it will have. Time and time again you see people on this forum or on YouTube say... I've been shooting IPB instead of all-i because of the data rates.
I thought the same, until I tested a bit the 4.1 K (pixel skipping) of my z9 as I calculated that it was about 350 mb/s bitrate (I dont know if it is capital M or small m), compared to about 200 mb/s the h.265. Another surprise was that it played better using Resolve than H.265. For me this has been my defacto standard for higher end work.
I must do some more test about DR etc. to know what loss compared to 8k. Which I think is just too much. If I could get a 4k or 6k raw camera, I would be super happy or with the likes of Redraw higher compression.
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Just now, Eric Calabros said:
"In my opinion, the enthusiasm is because Atomos have a chance with Nikon to renegotiate or nullify their onerous licensing agreement for RAW recording. The agreement with RED in 2019 was necessary as Atomos were being sued for the use of compressed RAW codecs like ProRes RAW in their portable recorders, so now have to pay RED royalties on every sale (although the exact terms of the deal aren’t public)."
But if Nikon decides to Not defend RED patent, there will be a lot of cameras in the market with internal raw. Canon will introduce 8:1 compression, Sony will introduce a new Sony-exclusive raw codec and call it XcR, Panasonic S5m3 will record ProresRAW. And then, who would need/buy a monitor recorder?
Their are two thing that can be vital for them.
First Atomos could literally be dead if Nikon opens the patent, as other brands would start to launch their cameras with internal RAW and as you say, who will need an external recorder.
Secondly, something I didn't believe before, Nikon could license the REDraw only to external recorders. They keep the internal raw for their cameras, and give the license of RED RAW to the likes of Atomos to undermine the likes of Apple prores raw and BM raw, and try to make RED raw a defacto standard Raw video format, that could be useful even after the patent doesn't hold anymore.
Jeromy Young has already worked with Nikon for 10 bit video and Raw video in the Z6. So it is easy to see a series of Ninja V etc coming out with Redraw rather than prores raw tomorrow!!! That would open Red raw to much more users while still giving Nikon some advantages.
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There was an interview from Marques Brownlee about when Sora will come out. And the developers said it would take some time. Now their are two reasons, one is that they don't want to release it before the november election, and they also said it was compute costly.
The last part is very very important to understand. All these cheap services about the wonderful AI, run on very big server farm. For now all these startups cost/profit we don't know. If OpenAi cost was 100, 200, 1000 USD per month, would it had been so successful. And thus is the question. Having one people asking for one video, it could be 10x ILM servers rendering that. So my guess this and all the AI thing as we see, are running on venture capital money and how much to ran them including video we don't know.
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Just now, Django said:
That seems most likely. Canon cine lenses have PL options and thats Nikons historical competitor..
Would Nikon go to such a small niche market like this, that is PL mount lens. I personally think they envision a Sony like lineup from red in the future. Option one would be to start just above the z9 price bracket with a new Komodo directly in competition with the Sony FX6. A 6k global shutter camera with a video camera form factor with XLR input, timecode etc. but this time it would include Nikon super good autofocus, Stabilization, CFexpress memory, Z mount and if possible internal ND. I don't know if their is enough space for the later.
This type of camera, will be the type of high volume camera, that Nikon can use to make with little change some Cine like Z mount lens, because lets not forget, while the Z mount are the most adaptable lens mount, the Z lens are the least because of this.
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13 hours ago, kye said:
This is true, but it is mostly offset by the increase in resolution.
1080p was ~2MP and I remember the data rates and processing requirements being huge at the time. Now we have 8K ~36MP and the data rates and processing requirements are huge for todays computers.
It's tempting to say that we won't go past 8K and computers will keep up, but people have been saying this since 1080p and it's gone up 18X since then. The next shifts will be into VR, where you need to shoot in a huge amount more than your delivery resolution so I see no end in sight to the increases.
I know a lot of people still watching 720p on their TV, or even SD, without any problem. I personally, don't think the likes of 8k will be sought by customers, but they will get it because as today you nearly can't find a 720p television even if you wanted to. My guess people are more keen and see more qualitative difference in the size of display rather than pixel.
I think the shift into VR is a bit of a pipe dream. I see it more in gaming, and these are more about gpu speed and 3d generation.
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15 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:
Nikon is going to release a Komodo competitor next month: Z6m3 with 6k30p raw 😄
I wanted to add.
In the longer term I see RED becoming basically a R&D center for red/Nikon video. The manufacturing of at least the lower end models will be done in Nikon facilities. Red will still design the sensors for at RED cameras, and perhaps some Nikon cameras. While Nikon the Xspeed chip and other things like viewfinder etc. This will bring immense economies of scale. If next Nikon camera has a 8k and 6k FF global shutter sensor sensor, that can be also used in RED cameras. Rather than a few thousands sensor for RED, they would beneficiate from the fabrication of hundred of thousands of chip, same if they use lets say a new Xspeed 8 sensor.
I don't think Nikon will stop using Sony sensors in most of its cameras, but in some of the higher end. Like a 24 megapixel global shutter sensor in a Z9h to compete against the Sony A9iii. I can totally see this.
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15 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:
Nikon is going to release a Komodo competitor next month: Z6m3 with 6k30p raw 😄
I see Nikon differentiating factor will be mainly the form factor. If you want a hybrid camera that will need some rigging to be pro video camera complete, you will have the z6iii or Z8. For proper video camera, you will have a komodo with XLR input, more than two audio input, timecode, big battery, multiple monitoring possibility.
I see Nikon moving at least the Komodo as an Sony FX6 style camera, With dials for audio etc. I don't know if the Nikon flange distance can be enough for a internal ND. But I think, at least for RED ussers, their will be less resistance to moving the Komodo to a more all rounder Cinema/Eng format than the higher models that are more cinema box models.
In the longer term I see RED becoming basically a R&D center for red/Nikon video. The manufacturing of at least the lower end models will be done in Nikon facilities.
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20 hours ago, mercer said:
Haha, actually the Z9 is supposedly a stock Sony sensor with a couple tweaks. I assume it's like the whole D850 debacle Nikon found themselves in. And I don't know what difference it makes who designed the sensor? If Sony owns a patent for their AF, and Nikon wants to use it, Nikon would still have to pay a license fee for it... if they designed the sensor or not.
There is no Sony sensor with the same spec. Can you show us a 45 megapixel stacked sensor from Sony in other cameras??? If you think Sony sensor division which is magnitude bigger than their camera division, is going to alienate their customers, Nikon being one of their biggest ever. You need to grow up. Nikon builds the steppers that Sony produce their chip on, their is no school yard mentality between those billions dollars companies.
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2 hours ago, EspenB said:
What did Nikon pay?
How can Nikon make this back in the next 3-4 years before the patent expires?
They don't, you people have watched so much all these influencers telling you Nikon is doomed. That same company that didn't a profit only once during the last 15 years or more. They even have a big reserve of cash and are part of the biggest group of companies in Japan.
The thing is Nikon is a 4.7 billons revenue company, while red is 160 millions. Nikon doesn't even need them to make a profit for now. They just need the branding and a way to get into the video/cinema world. Just the sales of Z-mount lens or cine version of them, might make the money back.
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On 3/9/2024 at 11:43 AM, JulioD said:
No way is Nikon making a Burano type camera.
Nothing will change at either company.
A few years from now RED fold from stagnation or gets bought back by the owners and re-launches.
You are right, they can do a better one, with better sensor tech, better Z mount, better stabilization, better internal codec etc.
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Good luck to them, when their camera overheats their photographers Videographers will be super happy.
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I am a big fan of Michael Moore but I think he was duped in this film by his the gibb guy. I think the guy just told him corporations are doing green washing etc and his hate which most of the time is justified and he got triggered. People they are showing 90s footage, and the guy is talking about Solar panel with 8%...... conversion. I mean when was that, even 10 years ago we where in the 15+ % and now 20-23% for commercially available panel. He is talking about waste, today's good panel are between .2 to .5 % loss in capacity per year. We are talking 50 to 100 years lifecycle with over above 80% capacity. Same for battery, we are at the level of the million miles battery. That is 50 years average driving. Let's not even talk about cost. Solar being the cheapest ever form of producing electricity. This video is a good rebuttal of the documentary.
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1 hour ago, j_one said:
Hey there 👋
So I’m personally deciding between a few units, the Nanlite included. Adorama has their new Clar 350 with supposedly quieter fans (in contrast to the 300w model) listed at $450. I also have a deal for a lightly used Godox VL300 for $540 after tax/shipping.
I was about to order the Godox before I saw the Nanlite and Clar. Now I’m leaning towards the Clar. The power unit setup seems similar to the aputure 600d pro, but I may be mistaken.
I really only care for the bare bulb output, color accuracy, and fan noise. Opinions?
For me, all in one unit are so much easier to work with. I have the clar 300, having always to connect like 3 unit is a big hassel. Now some people will say that these unit have battery power, but the price of those batteries would cost like the same as those units. If you want to run those 300 watt units, better go the generator or those solar generators, because vmount for these wattage are very very costly.
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18 hours ago, IronFilm said:
That's not true, the Aputure Amaran 200D is cheaper than the FS300 (and only thirty bucks more than the FS200).
Also the Aputure you can control remotely with a nifty app, while it seems NanLite lacks that, and to even get basic remote control capabilities you've got to spend extra to buy a remote control accessory. (which isn't as fully featured as the Aputure app)""
I'd also like to hear the fan noise from each, the Aputure will only kick on when needed and is off otherwise.
Also, the Aputure is a true COB design, while the NanLight is rather an array of small LEDs.
From what I recall the Amaran construction is mainly plastic. We will have to see these ones, what they are made from and if they are more durable. That could also be important for many like me, as the light have to support some modifiers etc. Having a 300 watt model also is something to consider. Time will tell when some will be able to do test. To think that these kind of unit use to cost between 700 to 1200 is quite extraordinary. You could get 3 like these for the cost of the aperture 300, its just crazy. The thing is, once you reach those level of wattage, battery doesn't make real sense. The cost of batteries would be higher than the unit itself.
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On 12/18/2020 at 8:56 PM, Cameramoto said:
On Aputure website they claim the Amaran 200d brightness: "Up to 65,000 lux @ 1 meter with Hyper-Reflector."
Nanlite specs for the FS-200 are as follow on their website: Lux @ 1m w/55 Degree Reflector 5600K: 36730 lux"
Nanlite specs for the Forza 300 are as follow on their website: "Lux @ 1m w/55 Degree Reflector 5600K: 66300 lux"
The only references I collected from the independant review from Gaffer and Gear on Youtube is as follow for the 300 watts Apurture and Nanlite. These are real tests by a gaffer, so they are exact.
Apurture 300D II : 3080 lux at 3meters
Nanlite Forza 300: 5040 lux at 3 meters
Arri Pocket PAR HMI: 3480 lux at 3meters
So I don't think the Apurture Amarand 200d claims on the brightness are right. In fact I think they are rigged. If I where you I would wait for Gaffer and Gear to make a real test before you buy.
His channel:
These reading are very clever for the Chinese manufacturers that, I think from the launch of the forza, used special reflectors that are tailor made for the size of the COB to concentrate the light really at the center, which makes the reading very high. The problem is that he himself sees is that unless you want just lighting a face, the hotspot is not good at all as you don't really get an even spread. He also got the surprise that for example testing the Forza 500, when you use it with the reflector he was reaching 1.2k hmi lumens, but once reflected or put in a softbox, the light was significantly lower than the hmi. If people go to Nanlight website, you will see thay say they use a bigger cob to get a more even beam. In fact it is much more honnest in my view, as 99% of time these light will be used with some kind of diffusion. It is too easy to say my light is as powerful as y, but then it is only in a 5-10 degree spot.
These reflectors have really messed the method of measuring light output. My guess people should either test everything bare bulb or put these light in a standard sofbox and measure the light output.
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This reminds me on the fumy article on Nikon, I mean the day that Nikon will die, the likes of Panasonic, Sony, Fuji will already have died and the camera industry dead. Yes Nikon is not in the best of shapes, but so is everyone, more so the likes of Panasonic and fuji which have 4 to 5X less camera market. Sony itself is selling a fifth of camera it sold in 2010 even if it has 2x to 3x market share. All these will have quit long before Nikon.
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On 11/24/2020 at 10:31 PM, EduPortas said:
Nikon is not a video company. Their forte is and will always be photo gear.
They make very good products in that respect. A bit more expensive than the usual players, no doubt. But the quality is there.
Let's be honest here guys: Nikon = Japanese ethos. Failing for them means being bought by another Japanese company.
Since they are a part of the umbrella of the massive Mitsubishi group, I HIGHLY doubt we'll ever see a dramatic shift.
At least not as dramatic as Pentax, which by the way still make a very good photo cameras.
WOW at lease one poster who has some insight. Panasonic and Fuji are at 4-5% of the market, 4 to 5x lower than Nikon and Nikon is neck in neck with Sony. Guess what its Nikon that is going to die. Then they tell you, but Canon Sony Panasonic form part of bigger companies.............. While Nikon forms part of the Mitsubishi Kieretsu, the biggest, bigger than Sony, Panasonic, Canon etc group in Japan, with one of its investors being the biggest bank in Japan. Nikon has been positive until last year and was sitting on more than 2 billions in cash in 2017 at least. They even have been bullish about their 2021-2022 numbers predicting profits for their imaging division as this big loss is a one time write off so as to make the cmpany leaner as they want to adapt to an ever declining market. They also have invested a lot into new field like lidar technology.
The fumy thing is people using market share as a metric of progress. Tell that to Sony who where selling 5x more cameras in 2010 with 5-8% market share than today with about 20%. How much time do people think Sony corp will be happy as a non historic camera manufacturer to continue to invest and surely incur loss in a camera business. Is Nikon in great shape, definitely not, but they are in much better shape than other manufacturers like Panasonic, fuji and even Sony. One has only 5% at best, the other one is now stagnating at about 20% since Nikon and Canon have launched their Mirrorless lineup. Even more, because it is in an ever smaller market.
Olympus the perfect example of the non sense about Nikon death. While for the last 3-5 years we are hearing how Nikon will die soon, Olympus who no one predicted, just went out. Nikon has always been positive until last year. Their profitability or even loss started in the imaging division started last year but with massive investment in R&D. What people here don't know as they concentrate on only camera bodies. Nikon has released 18 outstanding lens during the last 2 years. They have another 6 until next year, that will be 24 lens in 3 years. This is an investment on the next decade to 15 years, those lens are so good with the advantage of the bigger new mount. They also have build 6 bodies during that time and are heavily predicted that at least 1 if not 2 pro bodies next year. Meanwhile what has the likes of Sony produce. My simple guess, is that we will see Panasonic, then Sony and then the likes of Fuji, and I would put Nikon just before Canon to quit the camera industry. The likes of Canon, Nikon and to a certain extent Fuji are historic camera manufacturers. Sony was just opportunistic on a booming market, now that it is going down and down, they will soon quite, by selling it to stop the loss.
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I post it here even if I am a bit disappointed about lack of 10 bit internal in the latest z6ii because this guy has a nice perspective of a hybrid shooter shooting the z6ii compared to the Canon R6. At least with Z6ii you still get 10 bit prores/dnxhr recording external and even RAW, with now not only Prores with Atomos, but also Black magic RAW which will go to 4k 60p in RAW (1.5 crop). The rest of the Z6 camera is just so good, very very good EVF, IBIS, body build and ergonomics, with the magic switch (from photo to video) and what I like the most very very good image quality even in 8 bit 😞 .
My hope is that if enough people complain they could give internal 10 bit, which would make it one of the best, if not the best Hybrid camera for about 2k. I forgot to add above that the autofocus also was already very good on the z6, and now it seems even better in the version ii with eye auto detect in video. I say that because the Achilles' heel of the Panasonic S5. For now I would recommend the z6ii bundle with the 24-70 F4 (very good lens) and the ftz adapter which give you the possibility to all the Fmount Nikon lens. I think you will have some money to put some 50mm 1.8 also in the 3k.
This is in Chinese but you can see test side by side of z6ii and Canon R6.
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10 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:
Anything less than 12 makes RED start barking.
Is that true, perhaps they are paying some licensing.
Nikon N-Line the new Canon C-Line for video?
In: Cameras
Posted
What a bunch of non sense from people like you. Nikon has their own tech, the Z9 is superior to the Sony Burano 30k camera!!! They could build a Burano killer tomorrow with the z9 internals, they don't absolutely need RED tech if they wanted to go into the video camera world. But can you show me any of Canon, Panasonic or Fuji with even a tenth of that resumé https://www.red.com/shot-on-red. Please show us, I am sure Canon has be used on the likes of blockbusters like Dr strange, Spiderman, Aquaman, Guardian of the Galaxy, The Suicide SQUAD, The flash and some of the biggest TV shows like the Witcher etc etc.
I will wait, to think their are some people who think a company will throw away such a legacy is just dumb. If you don't even know the basic of branding, why Honda who sells Civics, invested billions on an F1 engine, or Renaud doing the same while they sell Clio's.
The people from Nikon have said not to expect anything Tomorrow, not because imbecile are going to say they will kill RED, but because it takes time. RED just released a 8k 120fps global shutter camera, vista vision camera. What do you think, they are selling Canon rebel 50, you think release cameras every six months.