LUMIX L10 - announced

[mercer]

13 hours ago, kye said:

I missed your point about it being in the S9 chassis, but that makes total sense and gives a lot of hope for a GX10, as if they can fit a FF IBIS sensor assembly in there they should be able to fit a MFT IBIS sensor assembly in there too.

If they announced one of those I'd be very tempted to pre-order one.  I'm super happy with the images from my GH7 but the size is cumbersome for a lot of things, and my GX85 still softly calls to me because of the form-factor.  Once you add a large lens to it the difference becomes less significant of course, but there are lots of small lenses.

This is the GX85 vs the GH7 (they haven't put the L10 in yet) but it shows my general point:

Looking at the size this way really does show the genius of the LX100 and L10.  

This is the LX100 vs the GX85, but the GX85 has the 12-35mm F2.8 lens, which not only is MUCH larger than the LX100 (open and closed), but the lens is 1.5 stops SLOWER at the wide end than the one in the LX100 and L10!!

In order to get an MFT camera to match / surpass the LX100 / L10 lens, you need to go to the 10-25mm F1.7 lens, which isn't a fair test as it's wider and constant F1.7, but the size difference is....  stunning.

The more I think about it, the more I realise the F1.7-2.8 lens and GH7 sensor combo really an 80% combo, where with its speed and aperture and the GH7s ISO performance, for general travel / family / hobby / creator / vlogging / etc stuff you'll only really miss the odd situation here or there where you'd wish for something more.
This is absolutely in contrast to the other little cameras I've looked at (the Sony ZV-1 comes to mind) where as soon as you go inside or after the sun sets the image turns to mush with the poor ISO performance, plus the DR of the GH7 sensor will seriously embarrass lots of the alternative options too.  This is because most of them are just old, but that seems to be the state of the market for these smallest options.

I'm not really sure what the current alternatives are for the L10, but happy to hear if someone wants to make a list...

Sounds like you should be on the lookout for a used LX100?

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

Already looked a ton of reviews for this one, since is (almost) the camera I was waiting since 2014, when I got my OG LX100 - it was my first 4k camera. Still have it here, internal batery dead, but still functioning well.

For years tried to get an MK II, but the used prices are insane (should drop now). This one solves a lot of problems of the LX100 I and II:
- Finally it have a PDAF sensor on it, and with more resolution to boot (12mp on the OG, 17 mp in MK II, 20 mp in this one).
- The sequential field EVF is gone, is a proper OLED now, the same 2,36mp panel that everyones uses. Never had the tearing issue with my LX100, past in the day it was on par of the others, but now you see the resolution difference.
- Movable LCD. I would prefer a tilt screen instead of a flip, but in todays market, I undersatnd the decision.
- More controls, more customization, LUT support (this is a MUST), switch for stills / video / S&Q, and now is a PASM model (In the LX100 you had to remember to set the shutter speed manually every time you wants to record a video).

I was 100% sure to get one, and I saw the price. Ouch. But newer cameras are pricier each day. 

And after I saw some things:
- The camera is much larger than the LX100 models - in fact, have almost the same size than a S9. Ok, they fitted a much larger battery, but...for m43, it could be much smaller. Battery aside, it could have the old size (even with some video lenght cap, like 30 mins - not the 15 min of the LX100)...and than I realized.
- Panasonic now have the tendency to share body design between cameras (S5II and G9 II, for example). Then my prediction - this body will be shared with the S9 II, EVF and all.
- About the lens - is exactly the same, but the PetaPIxel guys said that Panasonic told them that the dust problem was addressed. And the stills appear much sharper than the MK II, looks like there were som optimization.
- No IBIS - Probably it would cause trouble the the "multi-aspect" of the sensor. The lens does not cover the whole sensor, and vignette would appear if the sensor moves (which does not occur with the lens OIS). Internal space for an IBIS they have for spare - the GX9 is much smaller and have a very good IBIS. They should keep the lens formula the same, just make it larger (to cover the whole sensor) but...profits.

It is a very good camera, and I still want it badly. But is expensive, and for an EDC camera, for my use cases, an RX100 VII is a more versatile and smaller proposition (and costs the same new, much kess used).

The X-E5 is almost a dream camera to me too, and I did not bought one, again for the price. And I shoot less and less, hard to justify it.

[kye]

12 hours ago, mercer said:

Sounds like you should be on the lookout for a used LX100?

Typing that reply certainly did make me warm even more to the LX100 and L10, but considering I have the GX85 and 14mm F2.5 already (and are therefore a FREE option!) it's pretty hard to beat for a number of reasons..

The size with the 14/2.5 is similar, and it doesn't get larger when you turn it on:

As I edit in 1080p and am softening the image in-post rather than sharpening it, the 14/2.5 on the GX85 can be a 31mm and a 62mm (with the 2x zoom function) which are both absolutely awesome focal lengths for shooting how I like to shoot.  

I can easily bring other lenses if I am shooting something worth putting some effort into shooting (ie, it's not just an EDC opportunity).

I've shot an absolute ton of tests on the GX85 so I know it inside and out.

Like most of us here, I both crave the simplicity of having a fixed-lens setup that would do most of what I want, but I crave the choice and freedom of the options that an interchangeable lens mount provides!

[MrSMW]

10 hours ago, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

Movable LCD. I would prefer a tilt screen instead of a flip, but in todays market, I undersatnd the decision

Other than the price, that really is my only criticism. Pull out tilt 100%!

[Andrew - EOSHD]

Is the 14mm F2.5 II the same optically as the original?

[kye]

8 hours ago, Andrew - EOSHD said:

Is the 14mm F2.5 II the same optically as the original?

Anecdotally, yes, from reddit threads and even Photography Life who have separate pages for the two models and both contain MTF charts that seem to be different (it's not the same image) but the curves appear identical.
https://photographylife.com/lenses/panasonic-lumix-g-14mm-f2-5-asph
https://photographylife.com/lenses/panasonic-lumix-g-14mm-f2-5-ii-asph 

The announcements from Panasonic also use the same description - V1 - from Panasonic announcement:

Quote

Comprising six lenses in five groups including three aspherical lenses, the lens system achieves both compact size with a short overall length of 20.5mm and high optical performance.

V2 from DPReview (I couldn't find the announcement of V2 on Panasonics website?

Quote

Comprised of 6 lenses in 5 groups including 3 aspherical lenses, the lens system achieves both compactness with short overall length of apprpx.20.5mm and high optical performance.

Why do you ask?  Your review at the time was quite favourable.

[PannySVHS]

It seems like Panny is asking if we want a Lumix L2000- an L10 with a mount, full HDMI, IBIS and a headphone jack, for 1199 and a Lumix L1000, an L2000 with GH5 sensor, for 899. I'd say two times Yes, please! Keep em coming! I would go for the L1000.

The names are too cool, so I am looking forward to my L1000. Heck, why not, the L2000 will be it for me.

[kye]

Emily talks about the L10 and MFT small cameras:

The main point I took from this made complete sense to me.  New cameras need to have new specs, new specs means current sensors and they need more power (both for the sensor and also processing much more data), and therefore there is more heat and larger batteries are required, therefore the chassis just needs to be larger.

I note that camerasize.com now has the L10 in their database, so that means we can get comparisons!

It is larger than the LX100, but not by a crazy amount...  

Emily did note that it's not pocketable, but also that after carrying it around Japan for 10 days she didn't feel that it was heavy or bulky at any point, so I guess there's a distinction there between pocketable and it feeling large / cumbersome / etc.

It's also interesting to compare to the S9:

Obviously the S9 needs a lens (unless you're an abstract filmmaker!) but the purpose of the comparison is that the S9 is a FF MILC camera with IBIS and the body is slightly narrower(!) than the L10, and the same height.   So, I see no reason there couldn't be a GX100 in the S9 body as it would be the same except with a smaller sensor.

Obviously the depth is different, but that is lens dependent, and anyway, if it's not pocketable then it's down to how large it is when it's in use, and at this point it seems the L10 grows more than Pinocchio running for President:

I'm sort-of hoping for a GX100 as it would be extremely tempting, and also hoping it won't happen, as it would save me from being extremely tempted, and draw my attention away from my GX85 that (apart from it gradually turning into a film camera) I am remembering how much fun it is to use!

[Andrew - EOSHD]

I have a GM5 and I'd love Panasonic to update it but the market usually always chooses "more features" over "tiny size" when given the choice. The Sigma Fp got slammed for no EVF, no IBIS. The Panasonic S9 gets passed over for being too limited, even though it's a similar spec to the S1H, with better AF!

And with their 1 inch stuff like the LX15, nobody really bought it... all preferring RX100 VI etc, despite the fact the LX15 is one of the best compacts ever made with an F1.4 lens.

If Panasonic made a mistake with the L10 it's the lack of a prime lens version to go after the X100 crowd.

I also sense the age old marketing problems again with Panasonic. In Berlin, my local camera store (a very significant and long running one) has a Panasonic rep who is there very frequently, almost on a weekly basis. Panasonic have not even briefed him on the L10, let alone got a demo unit out for him to show to customers.

Camera companies need to learn the marketing basics.

If your strategy is to build hype around a big orchestrated online launch, have the camera in shops the next day, strike while the iron is hot. Why do the launch and actual release months apart and have nothing to sell?

[eatstoomuchjam]

As a counterpoint, their marketing seems to be working, given that they are now reporting big delays due to higher-than-expected preorders.

https://nofilmschool.com/panasonic-lumix-l10-delays

Of course, that could also be marketing and/or indicative that they just didn't make many in the first batch to force Fujifilm-esque shortages.

4 hours ago, kye said:

The main point I took from this made complete sense to me.  New cameras need to have new specs, new specs means current sensors and they need more power (both for the sensor and also processing much more data), and therefore there is more heat and larger batteries are required, therefore the chassis just needs to be larger.

This is somewhat true, I suppose, but Sony is still announcing/releasing 4K full frame MILC cameras and people are buying them.  Nothing says Panasonic has to release 6K or 8K in a tiny body.

If Panasonic released a camera in the GM5 body with the sensor from the GH5 or GH5s for $700, I'd be all over it.  In fact, GoPro is releasing an action camera with terrible ergonomics, a smaller sensor, and a 1" mount for $700 and there's all kinds of buzz/excitement around it.  If GoPro can cool an 8K sensor in an action camera body, why not Panasonic in a MILC body with 2x the volume?  How long can the new GoPro bodies record 4K without overheating?  Bet it's "until the battery dies."

 

[kye]

27 minutes ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

As a counterpoint, their marketing seems to be working, given that they are now reporting big delays due to higher-than-expected preorders.

https://nofilmschool.com/panasonic-lumix-l10-delays

Of course, that could also be marketing and/or indicative that they just didn't make many in the first batch to force Fujifilm-esque shortages.

This is somewhat true, I suppose, but Sony is still announcing/releasing 4K full frame MILC cameras and people are buying them.  Nothing says Panasonic has to release 6K or 8K in a tiny body.

If Panasonic released a camera in the GM5 body with the sensor from the GH5 or GH5s for $700, I'd be all over it.  In fact, GoPro is releasing an action camera with terrible ergonomics, a smaller sensor, and a 1" mount for $700 and there's all kinds of buzz/excitement around it.  If GoPro can cool an 8K sensor in an action camera body, why not Panasonic in a MILC body with 2x the volume?  How long can the new GoPro bodies record 4K without overheating?  Bet it's "until the battery dies."

Apparently they can't even educate their own sales reps about their own products, so their ability to sell a camera that doesn't have the latest specs may be less than required.

Emily said one thing in the video that was amusing, she said she had to hand it to Sony, as they have managed to brainwash their customers into thinking that larger sensors are better and that smaller formats aren't useful for anything.  This is true, there is all kinds of misinformation out there that people are just constantly repeating to each other.  The total amount of money spent on marketing must be absolutely unfathomable, but the thing is that companies will gladly pay for it because sadly, it works.