Thinking about getting into a new system

[mercer]

Hello all, settle in for a long post...

For the past 10 years I have mostly shot with my Canon 5D Mark iii with ML Raw. Other than a couple short stints with some native lenses, the only one I kept was a beat up 28mm 1.8 because it was cheap and I really like the rendering.

I also have a Sigma FP which delivers a fine raw image but I've always found it to be an awkward camera to work with... especially with its horrific battery life and annoying SSD tethered to the camera.

For the past year I've been using a GH6 a lot I bought on the cheap. It has the Arri LogC update, and I've been fairly happy with it except for my normal distaste for crop factors... although I have found the cheap 7artisans 24mm 1.4 lens to be a treat. For the most part, I think the GH6 could be the ultimate low budget filmmaker's camera. The LogC curve/color science mixed with 4K/5.7K ProRes HQ codec truly is remarkable... not to mention the IBIS which is nothing short of miraculous. Even the 1080p, with its small ProRes file sizes looks pretty amazing to me.

Otherwise, I borrowed a friend's Canon R7 for a few weeks and found it to be a pretty amazing little camera. The h.265 files were way better than I thought they'd be. The cLog2 was a treat to grade, the AF was practically perfect and the IBIS was better than I expected.

Since the pandemic, I've gotten into shooting stills a little. I first started with film and loved it. I still shoot some, but they're a little expensive since I don't have the capability to process/scan them myself. I then picked up an Open Box Pentax K10D which I enjoy taking out and getting some random shots with the beautiful CCD sensor, but video is more important to me than stills and I don't want to maintain multiple systems so I am thinking of starting over and investing in a new camera and a lens or two...

So... I was looking for some advice from anyone who has first hand knowledge about a few different systems. My criteria for stills is basically nothing... shoots decent stills. For video, I'm looking for a full frame camera that shoots internal raw video, or ProRes, has decent IBIS and decent AF. I'm a few months away from a purchase, but I'd like to keep it below $2500 for the main camera and then possibly pick up a second, lesser model,  camera in a year or so.

Right now, it seems like Canon or Nikon are the two obvious options, but after reading Andrew's mini review of the FX2, I'd be open to going Sony as well even though there's no internal raw. I have ruled out Panasonic and the L Mount. I have extensively used an S5iiX and have meh feelings about it. I just didn't jive with it.

I'm kinda leaning towards Nikon due to the ZR, but it doesn't seem like the best hybrid camera. But in a lot of ways, it's kinda my dream camera... even though I think 6K is a bit of overkill. I'm also interested in the Z5ii because it seems like it gets me a good bit of my list and gets me into the Z ecosystem for a fairly decent price.

But since I started shooting video with a ZR65, I've always gone back to Canon and have always been relatively happy about it.

And finally, although lenses are important for stills and those times I'd like to track an actor in a short film or something, I'd probably use my vintage lenses more often.

Anyway, I know this is a lot, but any insight you guys might have would be much appreciated.

[Aussie Ash]

Hi Mercer are you intending to purchase auto focus lenses as part of the equation ?

[mercer]

1 hour ago, Aussie Ash said:

Hi Mercer are you intending to purchase auto focus lenses as part of the equation ?

Hey thanks for the reply. More than likely yes, but only one prime to start out with. For instance, with the Nikon or Sony, I would go with their 40mm prime. With Canon, probably the 35mm or that new 45mm. 

[eatstoomuchjam]

For sub-$2,500, a used EOS R5 ticks a lot of your boxes, I think.  Afraid of overheating and want longer takes?  R5C is right at the top of your price range, but would be doable.  

If you're willing to compromise on IBIS for the Nikon ZR and if you're willing to bypass stills, a used OG Komodo is just in the $2,500 price range.  If you already have some stuff around for rigging up a cinema camera, you'd be able to use it pretty cheaply after that.  If not, you'd probably be in a few hundred bucks more and out f your price range.  The Komodo does have a built-in gyro, though, so it can be stabilized.  Otherwise, the ZR seems to be a fantastic choice.

A used Nikon Z8 would be just out of your price range, but would also be a really solid choice.  A used Z6 III would do you really well too.  Price is about the same as a brand new ZR.

lensrentals.com has a used BMCC 6K for under $2,500 as well.  It's a sensor from 2018, but you can get good results and nowadays, it has surprisingly good autofocus.  No IBIS, though.

 

[Emanuel]

Yes, Z8 is a temptation. And now ZR... : ) However in my case, the Blackmagic 6K FF and the FX30 are both in a league of their own.

[Aussie Ash]

7 hours ago, mercer said:

Hey thanks for the reply. More than likely yes, but only one prime to start out with. For instance, with the Nikon or Sony, I would go with their 40mm prime. With Canon, probably the 35mm or that new 45mm. 

If you do decide to go with Nikon the FTZII adaptor works very well with F mount AF-S lenses and the resulting auto focus speed is very close to z mount.AF-S lenses are easy to get second hand and far cheaper than the new lenses in Z mount .My AF-S 35mm f1.8 was only Aus $200 second hand and to purchase new in Z mount is around Aus $1000.

[BTM_Pix]

I would say that Z mount would be the way to go.

It can adapt everything you’ve got in your lens collection to be near native.

Not just your AF EF and F mount but with the TechArt you can have AF of all your manual lenses as well.

If you can stretch to a used Z8 then that would close the argument on every aspect and would be a - if not THE -forever camera.

I say this as someone who has still failed to buy one for the past three years despite it being THAT camera to me.

But I’m going to London this weekend and you know what, I might well end up feeling saucy and doing a Wayne Campbell…

 

[mercer]

9 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

For sub-$2,500, a used EOS R5 ticks a lot of your boxes, I think.  Afraid of overheating and want longer takes?  R5C is right at the top of your price range, but would be doable. 

Being a Canon fan over the years, obviously I drooled over the R5 since it was released, especially after the overheating got sorted out (thanks to the fine folks on eosHD) but it was waaaay over the reality of my life. Since my interest was once removed, I'm a little unsure of the specs but believe that the 4K raw is cropped, not downsampled, right? 8K is complete overkill for what I do... in some ways as I started thinking about this, I've gone back and forth that the 1080p raw on my 5D3 is probably plenty good enough for the short films I don't finish (HA) so 8K is just perverse for me.

9 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

If you're willing to compromise on IBIS for the Nikon ZR and if you're willing to bypass stills, a used OG Komodo is just in the $2,500 price range.  If you already have some stuff around for rigging up a cinema camera, you'd be able to use it pretty cheaply after that.  If not, you'd probably be in a few hundred bucks more and out f your price range.  The Komodo does have a built-in gyro, though, so it can be stabilized.  Otherwise, the ZR seems to be a fantastic choice.

Unless I misunderstood your first sentence here... I believe the Nikon ZR does have IBIS? My real concern with the ZR is the 4K R3D crop in 4K. I'm sure I can live with S35 crop for video or maybe the 6K is soooo good that I will get over my analogesque snobbery. But the Komodo suggestion is tempting... another camera I have drooled over.

10 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

A used Nikon Z8 would be just out of your price range, but would also be a really solid choice.  A used Z6 III would do you really well too.  Price is about the same as a brand new ZR.

Z8 is also a dream camera... basically any camera with internal raw and IBIS is a dream camera for me, so the Z6iii fits into that equation as well.

Shit... just checked BH... the Z6iii is on sale brand new for $1999...

Hmm... that complicates things a little.

10 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

lensrentals.com has a used BMCC 6K for under $2,500 as well.  It's a sensor from 2018, but you can get good results and nowadays, it has surprisingly good autofocus.  No IBIS, though.

Not interested in BM products.

Thanks for all of the suggestions, a lot to think about.

[mercer]

9 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Yes, Z8 is a temptation. And now ZR... : ) However in my case, the Blackmagic 6K FF and the FX30 are both in a league of their own.

Thanks for the reply. It looks like I'll probably go Nikon or Canon, but if I was thinking about this at this point last year, the FX30 and possibly an a7c2 would definitely be in the running. I love the output from the FX30 but the media and the price isn't worth it to me. If the FX30 was $1200 or less, it would be a contender. As far as the BM 6K FF... just not a fan of BM cameras for what I do.

[mercer]

4 hours ago, Aussie Ash said:

If you do decide to go with Nikon the FTZII adaptor works very well with F mount AF-S lenses and the resulting auto focus speed is very close to z mount.AF-S lenses are easy to get second hand and far cheaper than the new lenses in Z mount .My AF-S 35mm f1.8 was only Aus $200 second hand and to purchase new in Z mount is around Aus $1000.

Good to know, thanks. All of my Nikon lenses are non-ai/ai/ai-s but I did see that the special edition of the 50mm 1.8G is available refurbished from Nikon for $199... so that's kind of interesting. Of course the 40mm f/2 Z is only a little more, so it'd be a little redundant. Either way, it's good to know that option is available. Do you know if the EF adapters for Canon R cameras have the same level of consistency as the Nikon adapter does? Also are there good portrait, AF-S G lenses that are relatively inexpensive but still good lenses... say 85-105mm?

[mercer]

4 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

I would say that Z mount would be the way to go.

It seems to be the case. Pretty amazing what Nikon has accomplished in the past few years.

4 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

It can adapt everything you’ve got in your lens collection to be near native.

Not just your AF EF and F mount but with the TechArt you can have AF of all your manual lenses as well.

That is a pretty cool feature, even though my mind cannot grasp how the Techart is accomplishing it. I had a quick look on BH and they only seem to have an EF to Z and a Leica M to Z... do they make an F to Z? The M mount one is kinda interesting because the more I get into shooting film, the more I have become interested in an M6 or earlier model... again completely perverse for my needs considering I usually shoot with an FE or the random Pentax/Canon/Minolta camera, but there's just something unique with a rangefinder.

Speaking of the FE... the FE/FM variants are damn near perfect cameras for stills for the type of stuff I shoot so as I started researching Z mount cameras, I almost forgot about the ZF and I instantly got a little excited about it... even though it lacks a lot of the video requirements I want for a hybrid... but so does the ZR... anyway after a quick search I found this...

Then I searched for a size comparison of the ZF vs. the DF and other than the grip, they were basically the same size... I thought mirrorless was supposed to give us smaller, lighter bodies. I mean my GH6 is only a little smaller than my 5D3...

What a joke in some ways...

Rant over.

4 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

If you can stretch to a used Z8 then that would close the argument on every aspect and would be a - if not THE -forever camera.

The Z8 would be amazing, but I don't know if I could do it. I think I'd rather have a ZR/ZF combo or just a Z6iii. Maybe if I could figure out a way to make some money from this stuff, a Z8 could be in my future... but then that would open a whole new set of possibilities... an R6iii/C50 or C70 combo...

And this is the problem I have been dealing with since I started this hobby. No camera meets all my needs (wants) but it's obscene for me to really have more than one camera. 

Another off topic rant... I've been seeing social media posts from the filmmaker Pete Ohs... I posted about him a long time ago because he made a film a year with a 5D Mark iii with ML Raw and his films were screened at SXSW and Sundance and they all got some type of distribution deal... well he's still making at least a film a year... his films are still being screened at SXSW and Sundance and he still gets distribution deals and he still makes his films using his 5D Mark iii with ML Raw and when asked, his reason is... "that's the camera I own." I immediately feel like an a complete asshole for chasing these other cameras. Of course, he's a tripod guy with very static shots that he shoots in basically one location (or very few) whereas I am trying to shoot more run and gun and stealing locations whenever possible., so I've realized how important IBIS is to my style of shooting and AF on some level... but not as important...

END RANT.

Anyway, I'm still in my early phase of thinking this through. I guess if I was smart, I'd dust off my tripod and shoot with my 5D or FP... or learn how to grade Log footage and use the GH6... but I really want 32 bit float audio and R3D/ProRes files... or nRaw/ProRes files... and IBIS in FF with some halfway decent AF... is that too much to ask?

first world problems...

4 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

I say this as someone who has still failed to buy one for the past three years despite it being THAT camera to me.

But I’m going to London this weekend and you know what, I might well end up feeling saucy and doing a Wayne Campbell…

Do it!!! You're a Nikon guy at heart it seems and you've been taking about it for a while... how nice would it be to have your "forever camera?" 

[BTM_Pix]

48 minutes ago, mercer said:

That is a pretty cool feature, even though my mind cannot grasp how the Techart is accomplishing it.

Very small mice are operating pulleys to physically move the lenses in and out of focus.

Hang on, it’s not mice it’s small motors.

50 minutes ago, mercer said:

I had a quick look on BH and they only seem to have an EF to Z and a Leica M to Z... do they make an F to Z?

Nikon’s FTZ adapter takes care of the AF Nikkors and for manual focus ones you just use the M mount one with additional M to F adapter stacked.

And indeed the same for any other type such as C/Y and M42 etc that have M adapters.

The other Z mount adapter that you may or not be interested in is the MegaDap E mount adapter which opens up the world of small and affordable primes.

There is even a Fuji X to Z adapter which is obviously only for APS-C lenses but would come in handy if your additional down the line Z camera was the not at all shit Z50ii.

56 minutes ago, mercer said:

how nice would it be to have your "forever camera?" 

It would be a tacit admission that the end is nigh 😂

[eatstoomuchjam]

2 hours ago, mercer said:

Being a Canon fan over the years, obviously I drooled over the R5 since it was released, especially after the overheating got sorted out (thanks to the fine folks on eosHD) but it was waaaay over the reality of my life. Since my interest was once removed, I'm a little unsure of the specs but believe that the 4K raw is cropped, not downsampled, right? 8K is complete overkill for what I do... in some ways as I started thinking about this, I've gone back and forth that the 1080p raw on my 5D3 is probably plenty good enough for the short films I don't finish (HA) so 8K is just perverse for me.

I think you're right.  The 5D II has some sort of full frame 4K raw if I remember right, but that's well out of the price range.  I think you mentioned the C70 in another comment - used prices on them are just about in your price range.  If you don't anticipate shooting in >4K for any reason, the C70 is really a hell of a camera.  The DGO sensor + somewhat soft OLPF really makes some of the loveliest images that I've ever seen.  Canon's focal reducer can also be locked onto the front with screws so anything that can adapt to EF will look full frame-ish.  Built-in ND's are fantastic.  Though it lacks IBIS.  I really don't think it's the camera for you, but the DGO sensor is a really big deal.

2 hours ago, mercer said:

Unless I misunderstood your first sentence here... I believe the Nikon ZR does have IBIS? My real concern with the ZR is the 4K R3D crop in 4K. I'm sure I can live with S35 crop for video or maybe the 6K is soooo good that I will get over my analogesque snobbery. But the Komodo suggestion is tempting... another camera I have drooled over.

You understood right and I was just flat-out wrong.  My mistake, sorry about that!

2 hours ago, mercer said:

Shit... just checked BH... the Z6iii is on sale brand new for $1999...

A Z6 III that costs less than a ZR?  As dreamy as the small size of the ZR is, for me, that'd be an easy choice.  Sheesh!

[Emanuel]

Z6 III vs ZR, you said?

Both are full frame, both use the Z mount, both have subject detection AF for 9 subject types, and both offer internal RAW up to 6K/60p.

The Z6 III has a 24.5MP full-frame sensor, and the ZR also uses a 24.5MP full-frame partially stacked sensor with EXPEED 7. From there, though, the split becomes pretty obvious.

The ZR is the one Nikon has shaped as a compact cinema camera. It gives you internal R3D NE, RED colour science, Log3G10 / REDWideGamutRGB, 32-bit float audio through the internal mic and 3.5mm jack, plus a 4.0-inch screen designed more for actual filming without leaning as heavily on external accessories. Nikon is very clearly positioning it as a compact cinema body.

The Z6 III, on the other hand, is much more complete as a stills camera.

It has a 5.76M-dot EVF, burst shooting up to 120fps, Pre-Release Capture, mechanical and electronic shutter options, and up to 8 stops of stabilisation with Focus Point VR. It is simply the more all-round camera of the two.

Physically, the ZR is noticeably smaller and lighter at around 134 x 80.5 x 49mm and 540g body only, or 630g with battery and card, whereas the Z6 III is larger and heavier at roughly 138.5 x 101.5 x 74mm and 670g body only, or 760g with battery and card.

The viewing setup also says a lot about the intent behind each one.

The Z6 III has an electronic viewfinder and a 3.2-inch vari-angle screen.

The ZR goes the other way with a 4.0-inch rear monitor and is not really being sold as an EVF-centered body at all, but as a video monitoring-first tool.

Audio is another area where the ZR is in a different class, because the 32-bit float recording is a major selling point and still quite unusual in this form factor. The Z6 III has serious enough audio for video work, but that is not one of its defining features.

Even the card slots tell the story. The Z6 III uses CFexpress/XQD plus SD UHS-II, while the ZR uses CFexpress/XQD plus microSD. That alone already says a lot about the difference in philosophy between a photographic hybrid and a compact cinema camera.

The Z6 III is still the more rounded hybrid camera, while the ZR looks much more like a compact cinema body built primarily around video use.

On paper they overlap in some important ways, because both sit in the same broad full-frame Z-mount ecosystem and both are clearly meant to appeal to shooters who care about strong video features, but the intent feels different.

The Z6 III is the camera I’d look at first if the job includes serious stills as well as video, because it gives you the EVF, the more conventional hybrid ergonomics, the stronger photographic identity and a much more all-purpose way of working.

The ZR, by contrast, seems aimed at the person who is leaning far more into filmmaking and wants a smaller cinema-oriented body, RED-style workflow influence, more specialised video tools and a more stripped-back approach that is less about being a do-everything camera and more about being a focused moving-image tool. That is really the core of it.

The Z6 III is the safer all-rounder. The ZR is the more interesting specialist.

So if somebody mainly shoots photo and video in equal measure, I’d say Z6 III. If they are really after a compact cinema camera in Nikon form, then the ZR is the one that makes more sense.