Nikon Zr is coming

[Ilkka Nissila]

3 minutes ago, Django said:

Tried out the ZR today, quite impressed with the hardware. It's been said a lot but the screen size is shockingly impressive. I tried it with some Sony glass via the megadap adapter and AF tracking was smooth as butter. From what I could tell ProRes codec seemed quite good, why is there no footage comparing it to raw & h265? It seems like the right middle ground. I'm seriously considering picking it up. Any final thoughts before I pull trigger?

I've had good experiences with Prores 422 HQ on Z8, and am thinking the same, why don't tubers test and show the results in their comparisons? While the data rate is quite high (note that Nikon has stated they will add Prores 422 LT to the ZR in a FW update) it is a video file for which in-camera distortion and vignetting corrections available and there is some noise reduction in play as well. Cined has tested it it is included in the database and it seems from the numbers that the camera in Prores HQ mode applies less noise reduction to high ISO files than h.265. It seems like a good compromise and if the LT version comes soon it might turn minds. 

[Django]

9 minutes ago, Ilkka Nissila said:

I've had good experiences with Prores 422 HQ on Z8, and am thinking the same, why don't tubers test and show the results in their comparisons? While the data rate is quite high (note that Nikon has stated they will add Prores 422 LT to the ZR in a FW update) it is a video file for which in-camera distortion and vignetting corrections available and there is some noise reduction in play as well. Cined has tested it it is included in the database and it seems from the numbers that the camera in Prores HQ mode applies less noise reduction to high ISO files than h.265. It seems like a good compromise and if the LT version comes soon it might turn minds. 

Cool, unfortunately could not test Prores other than on the camera due to no CFexpress but I may go back to the shop with my laptop to do further testing about this. Will report back.

Another quick set of question I can't find immediate answers: does the ZR allow FX to DX crop and digital zoom while recording like on the Z8/Z9? Not sure the 24MP allows this but I'd like to know. Also I'm unclear about LUT support, can it import .cube files? And if so can you bake it in cam? Finally is the 4K60p as good as on Z8/Z9?

Thanks in advance, I may pick the camera up today or tomorrow depending on these factors!

 

[ND64]

2 hours ago, Django said:

And if so can you bake it in cam?

No. For now its only Flexible Picture Controls. 

 

2 hours ago, Django said:

Finally is the 4K60p as good as on Z8/Z9?

Yes, but only with non NLOG profiles, like Flat and Standard. NLOG has a bug, or they deliberately added more NR with log profile. With YouTube compression, its not noticeable tho.

You can just wait to see how the firmware update turns out. 

[Django]

Can't seem to be able to import ZR R3D files into Resolve17, do I need to upgrade? any workarounds?

Tried a quick 4K ProRes shot and its looking good, not seeing the mushiness of h265.. 🙂  

[eatstoomuchjam]

The R3D files made by the ZR are actually R3D NE, a new codec which may or may not just be the same as Nikon raw, but with different processing applied.  Resolve 17 was released in 2020 before either Nikon raw or R3D NE existed so you will probably need to upgrade to 20.

A potential workaround would be to use redcine-x to apply basic adjustments and then convert them to a format that Resolve 17 can handle.

[Danyyyel]

The Best video to debunk that hit piece from CineD about the ZR dynamic range test they did. This is a side by side of the ZR and the Red dragon Monstro and they are literally indistinguishable.  The Zr tone curve seems to grab a little bit more highlight and loses a little bit in the shadows. They must be a bit pissed at CineD, no one is talking about the C50, hen they were flown to Japan to film a promo video.

 

[ND64]

The reason people don't see the difference reported with chart tests in real life is the saturation limit of modern sensors, and they're all in the same ballpark. Improvements are mostly in the readout noise, which is good to have, but nobody lifts the shadows more than one, or in rare cases two stops, anyway. I don't blame CineD for reporting 10 stops, as its what they professionally do and they have to be consistent. But calling it an "average" camera was personal, for whatever reason. Average between what and what? But its not just a CineD thing. I sometimes doom scroll Chinese social networks and there are also some video shooters over there who sounds angry that this camera exists! Which is crazy. 

[eatstoomuchjam]

The C50 is a $3,900 camera.  It's quite good and I'd love to have one, but there's a LOT of competition in the $4,000 space.  It shouldn't surprise cined that not everybody's talking about it.  Ultimately, it will probably be a good seller for Canon.

On the other hand, adding something with "Redcode" in the name as a feature for the ZR was a fantastic marketing decision on Nikon's part.  With a decent colorist, the differences in a final image between the Redcode NE and Nikon raw are likely to be negligible - but it doesn't matter because people can now say that they have a camera that records Redcode RAW.

These days, used Komodos are not that much off the ZR in price - and lensrentals.com has their early BF special on off-rental gear where you can get 15% off one of their Komodos which are still in decent condition - putting them almost equal to the ZR in price.

But getting an OG Komodo means a bigger camera with a smaller sensor, much worse autofocus, worse/less flexible built-in screen, much ergonomics, worse media (Cfast vs CF Express), and probably buying a v-lock battery plate so you don't need to source older/expensive Canon camcorder batteries (I did exactly that), and a less flexible lens mount with fewer third-party lenses available.  But you do gain global shutter and 16-bit raw with better test chart performance.

So yeah, of course everybody's talking about the ZR.  Not sure why anybody, cined included, should be mad about it.  People are welcome to use whatever hammer they like - and more competition in the cinema camera space, especially affordable (in comparison) competition is great for us as consumers of those cameras.

[Django]

I initially dismissed the Nikon ZR. The compact body and odd I/O layout made it seem like a prosumer crossover rather than a serious tool. After spending real time shooting with it, that impression completely changed.

The huge integrated display transforms the experience. It feels intuitive, immersive, and for the first time a Nikon mirrorless seems built for video operators. Pair with a Leica M lens and it delivers this uncanny mix of smartphone agility and FF cinematic depth, a combo that feels surprisingly liberating (think sigma FP but with IBIS).

The body is metal and feels rock solid. The flip out screen isn’t ideal for low angle work, but that’s about the only ergonomic miss. The stills side remains capable and thoughtfully separated from the video mode.

The redesigned video interface finally feels modern, with waveform, quick exposure tools, and four customizable banks all within reach. The main system menu still feels like a maze, but the dedicated video page is a major step toward a proper cine oriented workflow. I just hope Nikon will pull more from the RED side (traffic lights, open gate, 17:9 etc) in a firmware update.

Despite its understated design, the ZR stands out as Nikon’s most forward-thinking hybrid yet. The 32-bit float audio, internal R3D recording, and that massive touch display all combine into a package that feels disruptive and modern at a mid-tier price point. Haven't been this tempted by a camera in a while.

[Danyyyel]

15 hours ago, ND64 said:

The reason people don't see the difference reported with chart tests in real life is the saturation limit of modern sensors, and they're all in the same ballpark. Improvements are mostly in the readout noise, which is good to have, but nobody lifts the shadows more than one, or in rare cases two stops, anyway. I don't blame CineD for reporting 10 stops, as its what they professionally do and they have to be consistent. But calling it an "average" camera was personal, for whatever reason. Average between what and what? But its not just a CineD thing. I sometimes doom scroll Chinese social networks and there are also some video shooters over there who sounds angry that this camera exists! Which is crazy. 

I have been a pro photographer for 20 years now and live in a tropical island with lighting ratios you can't even imagine in most countries. This is why I have been always very sensible to Dynamic range result/progress/testing for the last two decades, as most of the population including me are darker skin and we have very hard light. During that time I saw the first digital cameras (I would say from 2 to 3rd generation) depending on how you count, go from about 10 to 14-15 (SNR) DR test in RAW, as contrary to most videographers, photographers been shooting in raw for decades. I have seen what a 10 stops DR camera image look like and my ZR is no way as bad as this. Last week I had to film some B rolls for the launching of an international car brand here, where we had to mix some of our country shots with their own media. And as I had little time, I had to go around and shoot in less ideal conditions with harsh middle day shoot and some with harsh backlight and I had to dig deep into the shadows. This is start of the summer in the southern hemisphere, so the light was already hard even not quite as from December to March. 

So to come back to CineD, I have enough experience to know their numbers/conclusion are just BS. In fact they are some of the reference that have educated me, mostly with the latitude test, which I consider the best test today. But when you take RAW numbers and pit it against mostly compress/NR based codec, guess what, it is disingenuous. Because if you had watched DR test for the last decade with Xyla charts and Imatest, you would know that Raw data tend to score much less because of noise, but in that noise is still a ton of Data. Gerald Undone who is himself not a Nikon Fan, does the explanation very well in the ZR dynamic range test. First he got 10.9 stops at 0.5 medium noise rating, which strangely jumps just a little bit to 11.1 on a normalized 4k timeline, and just adding a little NR, where as he says the details in the shadows are still very high he reaches 12.6. This is in the RED Komodo X range. I have seen other test from french (I am a french Speaker) to even Korean which were around same numbers and which corelate with multiple side by side test. And no way their are 2.5 stops difference between the KX and the ZR!!! But it is not the first time I see them cooking their numbers to support some kind of narative. But this time it was the exact opposite for the Sony A9iii. The one with the Global shutter that even with your eyes could see with a bad DR, but I remenber the guy putting so much NR to get 9STOPS of exposure latitude, to say it had great latitude. Yes it is a 1080p image, but doesn't mean it has 1080p details, which I pointed in the comments.

[Danyyyel]

By the way to continue my my post above, I saw a very intriguing test by a Chinese Channel where he tested the ZR not only at 800iso but also at 400/ And the results are astounding. 

So he is getting more than a stop of DR at 400 vs 800 ISO in Nraw!!! at ISO 800, the slope-based DR is 14 EV, SNR=1 is 12 EV, and SNR=2 is 10.6 EV.

At ISO 400 (Lo1), the slope-based DR is 14.6 EV, SNR=1 is 13.1 EV, and SNR=2 is 11.9 EV.

Another surprise is with the NEV to R3D conversion. The measured DR for Slope-based DR reaches 15.1 EV, SNR=1 reaches 13.3 EV, and SNR=2 reaches 12 EV. These are incredible results.

His test using the Xyla chart looks very solid, perhaps the best and most detailed I have seen. I would have hoped he would have tested the R3D at 400 (Is it even possible?) and the latitude test with 400 so as to have a double check on the chart numbers. If anyone speaking chinese could translate in case I am saying stupid things, and has the app, as I can only see the video at 360 P. The channel name is 家硕_JiashuoMedia,"

 

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV19KWkzQEq1/?spm_id_from=333.1387.homepage.video_card.click