New L-Mount Lumix (cinema?) Camera

[ac6000cw]

2 hours ago, MrSMW said:

For fast paced run & gun work, it's superb and has multiple frame markers for my 'films' and for my socials.

The 'pro' features aside, I can't really fault it.

And if they are now under 1k, like so much Lumix stuff, I think that is where and when they make most sense.

I agree.

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

red

Welcome to The Cool Club 👍

I wanted the orange one...and then realised that was a Nikon Zf option 🤪

[zerocool22]

Hmm the big miss is no internal Nd Filters. If they would have included that it would be a huge success. 

Looking forward to actual footage though, s1rii def looked better then the s5ii.

Might pick up an used r5c(EF ND adapter) or c70 with speedbooster, that way I can have internal ND's. 

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, zerocool22 said:

Hmm the big miss is no internal Nd Filters. If they would have included that it would be a huge success

This is possibly the single biggest thing where Lumix could score a win and something most were hoping for, if not expecting.

My own expectations were an identical body, but otherwise different sensor pairing of ‘S2R’ and ‘S2H’, the latter with internal ND and the former with a larger than 45mp sensor.

But we have not got either and no sign of either and realistically, I think no hope of either based on recent and imminent models.

Sony are about to pop out a new FX and a new Alpha any time and though I suspect they will not be groundbreaking either, will possibly be the new benchmarks at this 2.5-4k price point.

And so much for the FX style body for the new Lumix’s. I’d like to have seen that as that at least would have been something…

[Thpriest]

I keep coming back to price and value. The Sonys are about 50% more expensive. Whilst the price of the new Lumixes seems a bit high for me at present, I'm sure that within a year the have great offers or bundles on all of the new cameras. That's when i usually pick them up. So far Lumix has offered me unbeatable value. I hope that continues.

[Andrew Reid]

1 hour ago, Thpriest said:

I keep coming back to price and value. The Sonys are about 50% more expensive. Whilst the price of the new Lumixes seems a bit high for me at present, I'm sure that within a year the have great offers or bundles on all of the new cameras. That's when i usually pick them up. So far Lumix has offered me unbeatable value. I hope that continues.

Each to their own but for me it isn't just about the camera bodies, but the prices of the lenses.

There's more affordable lenses and better value money lenses for Sony E-mount, Fuji X and Nikon Z than for L-mount. As for the camera bodies I look only to the real street prices for mint condition used bodies, and occasionally the new price if I cannot afford to wait 5 or 6 weeks for the first used ones <2000 shutter count to come around.

Sony can justify their high pricing of the flagship stuff as they are popular and in demand, whereas Panasonic S1R II etc. is not.

But if we ignore the a1 II and a9 II for a moment and look at the other Sony bodies especially used, the value for money is actually very good in particular the a7 IV at £1400.

The a7r III used in mint condition can be had for as little as £900 or 1000 euro. That's an extremely capable stills camera with very good 4K as a bonus.

The OG Sony a9 is also a good deal around £1200, with the stacked sensor, 20fps raw, and oversampled 4K.

The ergonomic improvements from the original a7 through to the a7 III and a9 are significant as is colour science improvement.

a7 III can be had for well under £1000 today.

Looking at the newer stuff Sony a7r V mint condition is £2500 and brand new £3200.

Panasonic has a direct competitor with high megapixels and modern video features, of course that's the S1r II.

But it is only £200 less new and is in the same body as a lower-end camera, whereas the a7r V has the build quality and design of a flagship camera, if you put it side by side with the original Sony a1 for example you might even say it's higher-end.

The value for money in Panasonic's range is in the lower-end stuff. S5, S5 II, S9, and the older Micro Four Thirds stuff like GH6 which can be had for ridiculously low prices now.

If you are going to drop £3500 on an S1 II be prepared to lose £1000 immediately as you drive it off the forecourt, and another £1000 in 12 months when it drops to selling for just £1500 second hand like the a7 IV.

[Thpriest]

As i'm a freelancer and can discount VAT I buy most of my kit new. Each country and market is different. The Sony A7iv is going for around 1800€ and the Lumix S5ii for around 1300€ on the second hand market here in Spain. That's a decent lens price difference.

When I bought the S5ii 2 years ago I got it with the Sigma 28-70 2.8 for 2590€. Discount the VAT and that's hard to compete with in my eyes. I looked at buying Sony but to buy a similar kit (2 cameras, 24-105 f4, 28-70 2.8 and 3 1.8 primes) was double the price.

[MrSMW]

36 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

There's more affordable lenses and better value money lenses for Sony E-mount, Fuji X and Nikon Z than for L-mount

Truth bomb and for me, it was the Tamron zoom's that swung it.

I'm not really a big zoom fan, but the reality is, for my work, I just need them and the lighter and more compact the better and that is exactly what they are.

38 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Looking at the newer stuff Sony a7r V mint condition is £2500 and brand new £3200.

Panasonic has a direct competitor with high megapixels and modern video features, of course that's the S1r II

I think for pure stills, then the Sony.

For pure video use, then the Lumix.

Hybrid, I could make a case for either, but again, for me, it's when the lens question is brought into the equation and that is where it tips heavily for me back to Sony.

But then why I am interested in picking up the Sony 50-150mm f2 ASAP because surely that is quite big and quite heavy?

Well yes it is, but not stupidly so and if it will allow me to lose a body and a couple of lenses and gain me something else in actually having and using it, then it makes sense. 

42 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

The value for money in Panasonic's range is in the lower-end stuff. S5, S5 II, S9, and the older Micro Four Thirds stuff like GH6 which can be had for ridiculously low prices now

Yep.

15 minutes ago, Thpriest said:

When I bought the S5ii 2 years ago I got it with the Sigma 28-70 2.8 for 2590€. Discount the VAT and that's hard to compete with in my eyes

Also yep. Put an A7iv plus Tamron 28-75 against it, and I suspect very little difference in price on the used market today and as above, I'd give the nod to the Lumix/Sigma as a pure video tool, but as a hybrid or pure stills, then the Sony/Tamron.

I think that is what it largely comes down to here, - use case.

You could chuck the Nikon Z6iii with the Tamron 28-75 also into the mix and again, I think on pure video capability, the Lumix still gets the nod (mainly if 6k open gate is your thing) but probably pushes the budget up slightly it being a bit newer.

Some might include Fuji, but for me that is something a little different.

Canon RF I don't think really has the glass and everything seems to be priced higher.

49 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

f you are going to drop £3500 on an S1 II be prepared to lose £1000 immediately as you drive it off the forecourt, and another £1000 in 12 months when it drops to selling for just £1500 second hand like the a7 IV

That's about the summary of it I fear. Had the cameras been a bit more 'pro' and innovative, then an argument could be made to justify 3.5k, but in this marketplace, I wouldn't drop that kind of money on them. But still waiting to see exactly what they are when launched, but I think we already know and there will be no surprise bombshells. Sadly, because I want to see them do well.

[stephen]

Panasonic older bodies are good value. New bodies are not.
S1R II sells for exactly the same price as Nikon Z8 which has faster and fully stacked sensor.
If rumors are true S1 IIE with same sensor as S5 II will be 2800 Euro. Same sensor with very similar specs in the form of Nikon Z5 II sells for 1700 Euro. S1 II supposedly will have the same semi stacked 24Mpx sensor as Nikon Z6 III and will cost  3500 Euro. Nikon Z6 III current price at a local shop is 2000 Euro. I don't think Panasonic will be able to keep these prices. Andrew is right, don't see how new cameras from Panasonic can attract or entice Nikon and Sony users to switch. Maybe with some unique features like open gate or anamorphic ? For me Nikon becomes more tempting not only  because prices are significantly lower for the same sensor and similar specs but because NRaw can be edited directly in Resolve, while ProRes RAW can't. Avoiding transcoding is  a significant time saver for me if I want to shoot  RAW internally.

There are no bad cameras and it's good Lumix cameras have their fans and users.

[Andrew Reid]

43 minutes ago, Thpriest said:

As i'm a freelancer and can discount VAT I buy most of my kit new. Each country and market is different. The Sony A7iv is going for around 1800€ and the Lumix S5ii for around 1300€ on the second hand market here in Spain. That's a decent lens price difference.

When I bought the S5ii 2 years ago I got it with the Sigma 28-70 2.8 for 2590€. Discount the VAT and that's hard to compete with in my eyes. I looked at buying Sony but to buy a similar kit (2 cameras, 24-105 f4, 28-70 2.8 and 3 1.8 primes) was double the price.

Discounting the VAT if you're a VAT registered business or sole trader is a moot point when comparing between brands.

The reduction applies across the board whether it's Panasonic, Sony, Fuji or that laser printer you use in your home office.

When the Panasonic GH2 came out it cost £1099 I seem to remember and was the flagship hybrid camera from Lumix.

Inflation hasn't gone up THAT much.

What they are charging now (at £3500) is a fuck ton of money.

It leaves the whole industry open to major disruption when DJI or a Chinese smartphone manufacturer comes up with an enthusiast level alternative with the computational chops of a phone, no need to buy lenses, no need for the weight or bulk to be anything greater than a pocket compact.

The Xiaomi 14 Ultra is a sign of the future death of the mirrorless market.

But that's another story...

The mistake I think Panasonic is making relates to charging £3500 for a camera that sits in a mid-range body design, with one of the less popular mounts on the market (less common than RF, Z, E, Fuji X)

Panasonic are supposed to be attracting customers from these mounts, not giving in and simply price gouging their loyal existing ones.

[Andrew Reid]

22 minutes ago, stephen said:

Panasonic older bodies are good value. New bodies are not.
S1R II sells for exactly the same price as Nikon Z8 which has faster and fully stacked sensor.

Yep that's the rub.

And even the S1 II is a partially stacked sensor, but they want £1000 more than Nikon's partially stacked Z6 III.

There's no proper cutting edge sensor option from Panasonic. The organic sensor is vapourware and they seem to be reluctant to give any money to Sony Semiconductor for a proper stacked one.

22 minutes ago, stephen said:

If rumors are true S1 IIE with same sensor as S5 II will be 2800 Euro. Same sensor with very similar specs in the form of Nikon Z5 II sells for 1700 Euro.

Yeah this makes no sense to me at all.

What is the S1 IIe doing that the S5 II doesn't to justify an increase of over 1k?

22 minutes ago, stephen said:

S1 II supposedly will have the same semi stacked 24Mpx sensor as Nikon Z6 III and will cost  3500 Euro. Nikon Z6 III current price at a local shop is 2000 Euro. I don't think Panasonic will be able to keep these prices. Andrew is right, don't see how new cameras from Panasonic can attract or entice Nikon and Sony users to switch.

They are in a perilous position at low-end of the market share percentage wise, with Pentax.

They cannot afford to do this.

They HAVE to be attracting Nikon, Sony, Canon and Fuji users. Micro Four Thirds has also become an expensive mess. The G9 II pricing is mental. It's more than a Fuji crop sensor flagship like the X-H2.

22 minutes ago, stephen said:

Maybe with some unique features like open gate or anamorphic ?

Let's hope Panasonic have done their sums on how many people are willing to dump their Z8 for these niche features.

That's not to belittle them for doing anamorphic, I'm all for it.

But as a market strategy it's no game changer, sadly.

22 minutes ago, stephen said:

For me Nikon becomes more tempting not only  because prices are significantly lower for the same sensor and similar specs but because NRaw can be edited directly in Resolve, while ProRes RAW can't. Avoiding transcoding is  a significant time saver for me if I want to shoot  RAW internally.

There are no bad cameras and it's good Lumix cameras have their fans and users.

Not to mention the file sizes of ProRes RAW create all kinds of added expenses on the media side.

[cosarth]

I'm also not a big fan of the new design BUT I remember not long ago a trend that said "If Lumix incorporates good AF with all these great features it's game over for everyone else". Maybe people now want their camera to make some coffee or give them a nice massage.

I don't care about the sensor origin, if it's stacked or BSI or whatever. If it does the job for me I'm good. I can't see any other manufacturer giving so many features (Open Gate, DR Boost, 32 bit audio, LUT system, ProRes, waveforms, false color etc etc) in such price point and I will have no problem jumping ship if another company offers me a better package. But it's 2025 and the glorious Sony cameras don't even have shutter angle at 4500€+ price point...

Regarding sales, I see more and more professionals in my field switching to Lumix cameras after the S5II/Χ release, before that it was a Sony monopoly.

[Andrew Reid]

29 minutes ago, cosarth said:

I'm also not a big fan of the new design BUT I remember not long ago a trend that said "If Lumix incorporates good AF with all these great features it's game over for everyone else". Maybe people now want their camera to make some coffee or give them a nice massage.

Everyone else have not been standing still, unlike Panasonic.

So at the time, which was a long time ago (when I advised Panasonic to incorporate great AF) had they done so they would have attracted a lot of Canon users especially, and others would have been tempted too.

But unfortunately for Panasonic, too much time has passed and stuff like the Z8 and EOS R5 II exist.

29 minutes ago, cosarth said:

I don't care about the sensor origin, if it's stacked or BSI or whatever. If it does the job for me I'm good. I can't see any other manufacturer giving so many features (Open Gate, DR Boost, 32 bit audio, LUT system, ProRes, waveforms, false color etc etc) in such price point and I will have no problem jumping ship if another company offers me a better package. But it's 2025 and the glorious Sony cameras don't even have shutter angle at 4500€+ price point...

FX3 does have shutter angle, if that floats your boat.

I am still very welcoming of the Panasonic exclusives... except most of them aren't exclusive any more. Open Gate especially has been adopted by quite a few other cameras, including some that can be had for under $2k.

LUT system is on the Sony a6700, ProRes is on a Fuji, and 32 bit audio is such a niche feature barely anyone is going to prioritise that above the latest sensor design and speeds.

29 minutes ago, cosarth said:

Regarding sales, I see more and more professionals in my field switching to Lumix cameras after the S5II/Χ release, before that it was a Sony monopoly.

I would like to see the hard data, the numbers

[eatstoomuchjam]

1 hour ago, cosarth said:

Open Gate, DR Boost, 32 bit audio, LUT system, ProRes, waveforms, false color etc etc

Well, other than 32-bit audio, Fuji.  And often at a much lower price.  And honestly a lot of people, me included, have no reason to give a shit whether the camera captures 32-bit audio.  Most of my shoots are on sets with separate sound being captured and we sync by timecode so other than hopefully not sounding awful for viewing dailies, the sound captured by the camera is mostly ornamental.

I should also add that most of those audio engineers, despite having 32-bit capable recorders, just record 24-bit anyway because "the files get too big" (which usually gets a sad laugh from me, looking at my camera recording 6k or 8k raw).

In short, I don't need my camera to become a better sound recorder.  If I were doing more run and gun interview sort of stuff, then maybe.  Plus, as far as I can remember, 32-bit audio requires an extra device sold for $500.  At that point, it's not all that meaningfully different than the cheaper and similar-sized Zoom F3 ($300) which I could just mount on any camera, record secondary 32-bit audio, and feed a clean signal from it into the camera's mic/line in to record at 24-bit in-camera.  Then I would have perfectly decent audio in the camera and if something clipped in such a way that I wanted 32-bit, I could just pull the SD card from the F3.

Anyway.  Keep in mind that if we're talking about a $3,800 camera like the S1R II, it's also in competition with cameras like the (cheaper) Komodo which does open gate (though with a 17:9 sensor, but it can also crop down if you want anamorphic), allows baking in a LUT, can record ProRes, has nearly every monitoring tool (including the surprisingly useful traffic light monitoring system).  And a $3,800, the S1R II is really not that far off from the Ronin 4D ($5,000), Canon C80 ($5,500), and Sony FX6 ($6,000).

It's a great and capable camera - and I've seen at least one filmmaker who bought it to pair with his R4D (as I expected since the sensors are identical or close to it) as a much more portable travel camera, but Panasonic really either need to focus on the value for money segment (S9 being a good example) or offer cameras with truly compelling features that others don't have in the same range (internal ND, etc).  Otherwise, not only isn't there a compelling reason to pick them up, there's also less time spent educating people on why you're not using Sony.

[KnightsFan]

The leaked price (if correct) might reflect tariffs and that uncertainty, in which case other manufacturers might raise prices on both new announcements and existing products. Value comparisons this year might not be as useful as usual.

[ND64]

So here is the deal:

 

15-stop dynamic range V-LOG (dynamic range enhancement mode on)

14+ stops dynamic range V-LOG (dynamic range enhancement mode off)

24M new sensor

Full frame 6K30p OG, 5.9K60p 17:9, 5.1K60p 3:2, 4.8K60p 4:3, 4K120p 16:9/17:9, FHD240p

APS-C 3.3K 120p 4:3, 4K120p 16:9/17:9, FHD240p

S&Q 6K 60fps, 4K 17:9 75fps, 4K 2.4:1 120fps, FHD 240fpsFF

120Hz 5.76 million dot EVF

779-point phase focus

Dual native ISO100/800

Five-axis image stabilization with 8 stops in the center and 7 stops in the periphery

1/8000s mechanical shutter

70fps continuous shooting with electronic shutter, 10fps mechanical shutter

[ND64]

1 minute ago, ND64 said:

Full frame 6K30p OG, 5.9K60p 17:9, 5.1K60p 3:2, 4.8K60p 4:3, 4K120p 16:9/17:9, FHD240p

If its Z6iii's sensor, why they use these weird crop modes?

 

[Simon Young]

10 minutes ago, ND64 said:

So here is the deal:

 

15-stop dynamic range V-LOG (dynamic range enhancement mode on)

14+ stops dynamic range V-LOG (dynamic range enhancement mode off)

24M new sensor

Full frame 6K30p OG, 5.9K60p 17:9, 5.1K60p 3:2, 4.8K60p 4:3, 4K120p 16:9/17:9, FHD240p

APS-C 3.3K 120p 4:3, 4K120p 16:9/17:9, FHD240p

S&Q 6K 60fps, 4K 17:9 75fps, 4K 2.4:1 120fps, FHD 240fpsFF

120Hz 5.76 million dot EVF

779-point phase focus

Dual native ISO100/800

Five-axis image stabilization with 8 stops in the center and 7 stops in the periphery

1/8000s mechanical shutter

70fps continuous shooting with electronic shutter, 10fps mechanical shutter

That is all well and good but if they don’t offer a better OLPF than the z6iii and still have the gall to charge 1000 euros more then they can burn. And we still don’t know the readout speeds in open gate or with their dynamic range enhancement enabled.

I’m getting more and more convinced that the C80 is the one for me, ticks all the boxes, ugly behemoth of a body with a consumer hating RF-mount nothwitstanding. 6k, decent OLPF, internal raw and a proven 9,5ms readout in all oversampled modes.

[Simon Young]

4 minutes ago, ND64 said:

If its Z6iii's sensor, why they use these weird crop modes?

 

If you have access to the white papers then share them here.

[Simon Young]

20 minutes ago, Simon Young said:

If you have access to the white papers then share them here.

Nevermind:

https://m.weibo.cn/status/Prx4YF8NX?jumpfrom=weibocom#&gid=1&pid=8