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Andrew Reid

Canon XC10 4K camcorder

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On 10/23/2016 at 9:15 PM, kidzrevil said:

has anyone ever used this with an external recorder ?

Yeah the 4K HDMI signal can be sent to a Ninja Star and auto downsampled. There is very little difference as the 4K is intraframe 422 so already most of the way there. I think maybe colours do look slightly better from the Atomos but it could just be the exposure shift I'm seeing (Atomos records slightly darker and therefore colours are more saturated).

On 10/23/2016 at 11:15 PM, UHDjohn said:

I've used it with a Shogun and Pix-e5h. I can't see any quality gain over the internal UHD 305 codec but haven't done any motion tests. I tested it to see if I could eliminate banding in blue skies but it didn't improve. ( HDMI out is 8 bit and not 10 bit)

I doubt motion will be any different as 4K on the XC10 is intraframe. I was pretty sure the XC10 outputs 10bit - at least from 4K - why do you think it's 8bit?

Anyhow the Ninja Star fares quite nicely with XC10. Small in size. Auto down samples from 4K and does pulldown from the Canon 50i/60i signal. Can be start/stop triggered by the Canon. File sizes are smaller than 4K 305mb but (I believe) better colour depth.

 

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
19 minutes ago, Lintelfilm said:

 

Yeah the 4K HDMI signal can be sent to a Ninja Star and auto downsampled. There is very little difference as the 4K is intraframe 422 so already most of the way there. I think maybe colours do look slightly better from the Atomos but it could just be the exposure shift I'm seeing (Atomos records slightly darker and therefore colours are more saturated).

I doubt motion will be any different as 4K on the XC10 is intraframe. I was pretty sure the XC10 outputs 10bit - at least from 4K - why do you think it's 8bit?

Anyhow the Ninja Star fares quite nicely with XC10. Small in size. Auto down samples from 4K and does pulldown from the Canon 50i/60i signal. Can be start/stop triggered by the Canon. File sizes are smaller than 4K 305mb but (I believe) better colour depth.

 

Both the Shogun and PIX-E5H display the incoming signal as 8bit. 

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35 minutes ago, kidzrevil said:

its crazy how many people missed that NR issue. Maybe I need to start doing reviews my damn self ! 1000 ISO is my absolute limit.

I also find it hard to believe that other people have not spotted the image ghosting and that makes me think it might just be some models. Only way to know for sure is to see footage from other units. It looks like @tomsemiterrific and @mercer are on the case and will post something in the other thread

In other news, more tests today confirm for me that the image is already losing detail at ISO1000 in HD.

Also, WideDR is better than CLog in HD because there's less banding and the colours are nicer.

CLOG:
CLOG.jpg

 

WIDE DR:
WIDE_DR.jpg

It also makes it easier to see the screen. I don't think there's any difference in dynamic range. I also learned that there are superwhites and 100 zebras are not necessarily clipped - I can get that info back in 32bit workspace in After Effects.

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37 minutes ago, kidzrevil said:

Even at 1000? Damn ?

How does wide dr compare to clog in terms of noise?

Im testing the cinema eos profile today with +1 sharpness in 4k and +2 sharpness in HD. Its worth a shot to see if that retains detail or affects the NR in any way

@hyalinejim 

The ghosting is as clear as day here

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=C5ZAcDtAq4s

 

Can't see any ghosting - where is it in the timeline?

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Yes at 1000 there is a slight smearing of the image in HD, but 4K shouldn't be affected as much.

I didn't notice a difference between the two when it came to noise - both were at ISO500 so not that much noise anyway except for shadow areas.

Yes, that video has very clear ghosting in some shots - like double vision!

4 minutes ago, UHDjohn said:

Can't see any ghosting - where is it in the timeline?

43s, back of the man's head - or the lady. Or when the white truck goes past, pause it and you'll see 2 sets of tail lights!

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1 hour ago, hyalinejim said:

 

I also find it hard to believe that other people have not spotted the image ghosting and that makes me think it might just be some models. Only way to know for sure is to see footage from other units. It looks like @tomsemiterrific and @mercer are on the case and will post something in the other thread

In other news, more tests today confirm for me that the image is already losing detail at ISO1000 in HD.

Also, WideDR is better than CLog in HD because there's less banding and the colours are nicer.

CLOG:
CLOG.jpg

 

WIDE DR:
WIDE_DR.jpg

It also makes it easier to see the screen. I don't think there's any difference in dynamic range. I also learned that there are superwhites and 100 zebras are not necessarily clipped - I can get that info back in 32bit workspace in After Effects.

It's recoverable in Resolve as well but what I found was that it bands more readily when over exposed this way. The scopes on the ext recorder show C-LOG has more DR than any of the other profiles.

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What would you say the difference between them is in terms of DR - they must be quite close right? I mentioned the superwhites because when you switch to WideDR from CLog the zebra area increases if there is slight clipping. However, I think this is just because of the way CLog spreads out the highlights and the actual clipping point looks to me to be more or less the same from my very unscientific tests.

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7 minutes ago, hyalinejim said:

Yes at 1000 there is a slight smearing of the image in HD, but 4K shouldn't be affected as much.

I didn't notice a difference between the two when it came to noise - both were at ISO500 so not that much noise anyway except for shadow areas.

Yes, that video has very clear ghosting in some shots - like double vision!

43s, back of the man's head - or the lady. Or when the white truck goes past, pause it and you'll see 2 sets of tail lights!

It's not too catastrophic. What' s the shutter speed?

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It looks like it is doing multiple exposures on each frame. Are you sure you don't have a setting somewhere activated which might do that? These in camera HDR modes some cameras have might generate an effect like that I would think, if the XC10 has that capability. Any HDR mode would be bad if there is significant motion in the shot.

Maybe something like the camera is recording natively at 60 fps, but regenerating it at some different frame rate by trying to combine frames?

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No idea, it's not my vid. Ghosting is independent of shutter speed though - SS only changes the shape of the ghost due to motion blur.

I agree that in this case it's not the end of the world - a test video / tourist vid. But there are times when this sort of motion artifacting is flat out unacceptable. I would hate to be in a situation where a client points and says "What's that? Can you get rid of it please?"

2 minutes ago, tugela said:

It looks like it is doing multiple exposures on each frame. Are you sure you don't have a setting somewhere activated which might do that? These in camera HDR modes some cameras have might generate an effect like that I would think, if the XC10 has that capability. Any HDR mode would be bad if there is significant motion in the shot.

Maybe something like the camera is recording natively at 60 fps, but regenerating it at some different frame rate by trying to combine frames?

In short, no, because if you play back frame by frame 25p footage the traces are from the previous frame, not a 50p interpolation 

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1 hour ago, hyalinejim said:

43s, back of the man's head - or the lady. Or when the white truck goes past, pause it and you'll see 2 sets of tail lights!

That looks like interlacing. Or someone shot it at 50p/60p and uploaded it in 30/25p causing the software to create some interesting interpolations.

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The only way to get that effect is to have a composite of multiple exposures, so it has to be something like that. This is digital media, not analog. There can't be ghosting unless the frame is a composite.

Interpolation can happen if the camera has a native frame rate and everything else is generated from that. The early HD models from Canon operated in that way, for example. The footage was shot at 60 fps as interleaved frames. All other frame rates and modes were resynthesized from that native shooting mode.

If the HDMI output is 60i, it just makes me wonder if the camera's native mode is like that as well. If that is the case, then the resynthesized image recorded internally may have that ghosting effect as a result.

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AFAIR the XC10 does have some interlaced modes but with interlacing there would be odd and even fields - you know, the horizontal serrated effect. I don't think that footage is interlaced but I shudder to think what interlacing + ghosting would look like :scream:

Hopefully other XC10 owners can post ISO 20,000 motion stress tests so kidzrevil and I can decide whether we should send our units back to Canon or ask them for a firmware update. 

All it takes is one sample video that DOESN'T show ghosting in a situation where my cam will produce it and I'll pop my XC10 in the post tomorrow. But I suspect it's all units.

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Idk, I think you may be expecting a little too much at 20,000 ISO. I didn't get a chance to do the test today, I may get to it Thursday, but I have a pretty busy week ahead of me. 

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1 hour ago, hyalinejim said:

Yes at 1000 there is a slight smearing of the image in HD, but 4K shouldn't be affected as much.

I didn't notice a difference between the two when it came to noise - both were at ISO500 so not that much noise anyway except for shadow areas.

Yes, that video has very clear ghosting in some shots - like double vision!

43s, back of the man's head - or the lady. Or when the white truck goes past, pause it and you'll see 2 sets of tail lights!

See i knew I wasn't crazy! Its clearly there its just acceptable to some just not acceptable for me! I've been shooting with a slow shutter to kinda mask it

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@tugela This might be the case, but the ghost comes from the actual previous frame, not an intermediate frame. You can see that in the frame by frame video I posted a while back. I'm pretty sure that it's temporal noise reduction as it increases with ISO.

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4 minutes ago, mercer said:

Idk, I think you may be expecting a little too much at 20,000 ISO. I didn't get a chance to do the test today, I may get to it Thursday, but I have a pretty busy week ahead of me. 

 

It's barely noticeable at low ISO. Everywhere in between is more or less noticeable, depending on what ISO, how much motion, and in what tonal range.

It's not that I ever intend to shoot at ISO 20000, it's just that it's incredibly noticeable and is the best test of "Does my XC10 have ghosting artifacts?"

There are 2 possibilities:

1. Only some XC10s have ghosting and kidzrevil and I should return our units.

2. All XC10s have ghosting and we should ask Canon for a fix.

All it takes is one sample clip to falsify no.2

 

 

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