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Andrew Reid

Canon 1D C to get $4000 price drop February 1st

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​Buying a 4K camera that can't feed out 4K is the same as back in the day buying a HD camera that can only output SD. Why would anyone spend $8,000 today on a 3 year old camera that has no high frame rate, can't be recorded externally, soft HD. 

Even if you don't have a need for 4K over HDMI today for that price don't you want, don't you expect, to have it as an option should you want to do it next year or the year after?

​I'd like you a lot more if you started getting the BASIC FACTS right. OH BOY!! Soft HD??? Super 35mm mode is sharp as hell! Internally! The 1080p HDMI in 4K mode is also sharp as hell. As good as a C300. The 4K of course produces oversampled 2.5K, 2K and 1080p or whatever you like in post, which is sharper and more detailed than the internal A7S 1080p.

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

Simon, you want an unbiased 1D C take from me!?

Should have found EOSHD earlier http://www.eoshd.com/2013/04/the-canon-1d-c-review/

That's about as stinging a critisism as the 1D C deserves and to be honest looking back on it I got it wrong. It's a much better camera than that and for £5k it was a bargain, nothing you can say will make me regret it.

By the same token I like the A7S as well and still use it, planning a Shogun shoot soon. So keep calm and carry on sir, preferably not here though! Maybe somewhere else! Mental asylum perhaps!?

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Why would I want you to regret it? Re-read my few posts here. I've been level headed the whole time.

I would never want someone to not enjoy their camera.  But your position needs to be unbiased.. Actually I take that back, your site is called EOShd so I guess EOS means its a Canon zone here. Fair enough. 

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It's like reading one clueless comment after the other.

For 3 years I covered virtually nothing but NON-Canon cameras. Mainly the GH2!!

OK so you lack knowledge, about a great range of subjects here, but at least man up and admit it

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Why would I want you to regret it? Re-read my few posts here. I've been level headed the whole time.

I would never want someone to not enjoy their camera.  But your position needs to be unbiased.. Actually I take that back, your site is called EOShd so I guess EOS means its a Canon zone here. Fair enough. 

​From my experience with the NX1, I can definitely say that Andrew provided the most unbiased review out there. Where everyone was bashing the newcomer (Samsung), he treated this camera as any other new camera from a respected professional brand (can't say the same thing from cinema5d though). 

Maybe you should grab a 1DC and try for yourself - or not. Although I don't think there is one perfect camera, but Andrew never stated that the 1DC was perfect - on the contrary -, and if you read his review he was quite harsh on this camera at the time. 

 

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Again I was being level headed and you respond with that... 

Your even more arrogant than people say. I've heard a few podcasts ripping on you but now I see why. Sad little child in his digital castle. The only people your impressing are the noobs. 

I don't need an unbiased anything from you, your transparent to me.  Tell us again how you bought a 3 year old camera that can't output 4K, can only record m-jpeg, no peaking etc and you made it No.1 on your list???

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Again I was being level headed and you respond with that... 

Your even more arrogant than people say. I've heard a few podcasts ripping on you but now I see why. Sad little child in his digital castle. The only people your impressing are the noobs. 

I don't need an unbiased anything from you, your transparent to me.  Tell us again how you bought a 3 year old camera that can't output 4K, can only record m-jpeg, no peaking etc and you made it No.1 on your list???

​Wow seriously you need to take a break... 

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Guest Ebrahim Saadawi

 Earlier Andrew mentioned we should have more females on this forum.  There is something to that.  On another forum I used my wifes name and its a whole different deal. I write the same but everyone act's humane.  Unfortunately, (or fortunately depending on your view) the drama that Andrew helps create is what attracts views.  (just check the threads with hefty view counts)  I agree Germy1979, these threads are entertaining and where else will you get called out by a sites owner so quickly!  I appreciate Ebrahim Saadawi trying to police, but I also notice it tends to lump those who are trying to have an honest discussion with those like Trias.  (the threads a week or so ago involvinving JCS and Andrew comes to mind). JCS Is a perfect example of someone who handles himself with diplomacy and a level head on every thread. (There I go brown nosing again as Andrew calls it!)

​I never want to ''police'' people who are trying to have an honest discussion, in fact I love controversial/combative people on this forum who actually discuss, with information. I don't agree with any of Simon's comments about the 1DC, while Andrew nails it describing the, it's like reading what's on my mind everytime I get a hold of one..

but come on, this is just destructive, rude and negative comments,

​Simon,You're actually proud of this work?
There are so many wrong things in it,
 generally bad editing and tasteless slow-motion. I just cannot believe why you chose this work to demonstrate your superior taste in color science and cameras, its beyond me.


It hurts EOSHD. Pople will be intimidated to post their work fearing to get "you suck" without actual criticism. It's a really negative attitude to spread on EOSHD...

See this: Simon, your video has various errors/mistakes that I want to point out. X, Z, Y. It would have been much better if you did A, B, C. I can't see this as an example of superior colour science. Cheers.

Much better huh? conveys the same message with no rudeness. This is how I want to see criticism on EOSHD. Hopefully!

 

 

 

 

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He doesn't have to be unbiased. People read the articles on the EOSHD Blog for his opinion. Not much of a review or blog entry if you only go over specs and what it can and can do. Sometimes I find myself agreeing with Andrew, sometimes not. So what. Guess what, people differ from one to the next, you might've noticed.

If people buy a 1D C solely because Andrew just said he likes it and put it up as no.1 on his own personal list... well then maybe they don't deserve a camera that suits THEIR OWN purposes, because, chances are, not everybody will find the 1D C ideal for their kind of shoots. Although, even if they didn't care to do a bit of research and just went with the first thing that looked good, they're not even going to be disappointed that much to be honest. But lets be real here, people looking to buy a camera like that, hopefully they're already in the business and well informed themselves. Spending a couple of grand on a camera, I'm pretty sure people will want to know all the ins and outs before jumping in.

For the purposes Andrew got the 1D C it seems like a pretty good choice. I mean, it does look like it's a great hybrid camera. Does an excellent job for both stills and video. If you have Canon glass, that's great. Use it! You can still throw it in a backpack. It does 4K internally. There's something to say for keeping a high-end camera mainly for stills but also acceptable video on the go and aside a production kind of camera with more bells and whistles like the FS7 (by the way, great new video went up on the CameraStoreTV YouTube channel on that one). But there's little point in arguing what is the best choice for a certain person; they alone can say what works best for them, just as anyone else picks their poison. There's not that one perfect camera that does everything well for everybody, there's always going to be stuff you'd wish was different about it.

In the end we're talking about serious gear here. It's hard to go wrong with a Canon 5DmkIII, Panasonic GH4, Samsung NX1 or Sony A7S and the likes, but surely anything more serious and expensive must be good enough as it is? Then it starts comes down to... it's not about the size but what you do with it. And everyone wants to do different stuff. Hakuna matata.

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Guest Ebrahim Saadawi

Onto topic: I remember testing images of the 1Dc 4K vs 6k Red Dragon frame, took them onto Vegas and graded them, the 1dc image was markedly better, it really did surprise me. It's more 35mm like than dragon, way more. This says a lot about the 1dc, and at the new price it's a real winner... I am actually watching all the reviews and stretching o get one & sell all my gear and hopefully finaly feel emotionally satisfied with the images Philip Bloom did a wonderful review if anyone missed, on youtube, he shows how 4k vs s35 vs ff vs 60p modes compare in real life. The s35 mode looks like down sampled 4k, and can be recorded to Ipb small files, isn't that lovely? 4K for interviews/landscpes & effeient s35 for the bulk of work... great workflow for wedding/doc/news/event shooters

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Camera reviews are just like film reviews...they are subjective. And that's okay. A cheaper and less featured camera is not necessarily worse than a more expensive / complex one - its about the image, the same way a low budget movie is not necessarily worse than a hundred-million dollar big budget one, its about the story. Bugati may be better than a Prius, but Transformers is sure as fuck not better than Birdman.

Remember, we are in the creative industry, not science industry.

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Ebrahim said the image was markedly better and I wanted to know in which way. 

In general, are 8 bit jpegs better than 16bit raw?  Is less resolution better?  How about the latitute of each image? Log vs Linear?  If anyone wants to easily compare the older non-Dragon Epic images vs 1dc images go to cinematography.net and download.  Tests from other sources can also be found quite easily.  Now if Ebrahim had said he was comparing images strait out of each cam I could possibly believe that, but he was testing, so I would assume manipulating images to their limits

Believe me, as an owner of 1dc I wish that it was markedly better.

 

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Remember, we are in the creative industry, not science industry.

Not even Ebrahim believes that.    "Filmmaking really began with technology, not through telling stories, because my 8mm movie camera was the way into whatever I decided to do. -Steven Spielberg" ;)   But I know what you're saying we can easily get caught up in the tech.  That's exactly why I love the 1dc.  Lets you easily create without a lot of tech knowledge.

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Guest Ebrahim Saadawi

I know that it's a bit hard to swallow the 1dc looks better than red, but it really does, to me... There various aspects of image quality as I wrote in an article lately, 
2-Noise amount: 1DC Huge advantage
3-Noise pattern: 1DC noise looks beteer, more filmic
5-Dynamic range roll off: 1Dc rolls off nicer to HL, I've
6-Colour science: This is the biggie, the 1dc has more pleasing colour
8-Digital artefacts (Aliasing/rolling shutter): both have no aliasing artefacts
9-Sensor size/image format: 1dc is a larger format, shallower dof

Red has IQ advantage in resolution (doesn't matter after 4k), and the colour depth produces less banding/more ''thick'' gradient, but that's not important to me if the 1dc gives me no need to grade at all, just better, more filmic feel... It's subjective, but I'd rather shoot a feature/filmic film on a 1DC vs an epic. 





 

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First off, nice tutorial on imaging basics posted on dvxuser and elsewhere.

 Now on to my Q's. 

Were you some what scientific in your testing methods? , For the Epic Dragon what compression settings, which olpf, your debayer settings and gamma, iso or asa rating (set for optimal latitude or?), the scene captured and its dynamic range, nd filters with or without ir, resolving power of the lens, type of lighting ie.. plasma led, fluorescent, tungsten.  color temp ?

 For Canon 1dc, c log or picture style?  over iso 400? and were all other applicable settings the same for both cams? 

 Then what size screen and its resolution did you view the images on? at 1:1 for both?   Was your working colorspace for broadcast or cinema or was it srgb?  

 On to the grade.  Did you try to color match to each other, throw on a lut or ? This is especially important in the 1dc's case. The 1dc log looks great and you can push it around quite a bit, but the chroma noise comes quickly once colors are saturated, (Had the 1dc since it came out, and see it regularly, but for small screen and web, not an issue) Ppro also definitely causes problems for the 1dc. I didn't take time to figure out the problem like Andrew, I just found it didn't look as good as in other software and moved on early last year. 

2-  Different mfgs use different amounts of noise removal.  Take the Fuji's as an example.  Everyone (including me) loves their colors and raves about them.  Look on any of the major review site comparison images and you will see very little noise, even when compared to some of the best sensors available at any price.  The fine detail is also gone.  It looks nice, but soft.  Notice the 1dc is softer than other 4k cams.  Very pleasing. (perfect imho). Draw your own conclusions.

3-  Depends upon settings above as well as being subjective

5- Dxo (if you believe them) rate Epic as the best they have ever tested.  14.8ev and color bit depth on par with medium format Phase one.  Other proper tests including the one I mentioned in my earlier post clearly show otherwise, and the often quoted and outspoken Shane Hurlburt completely disagrees.  (subscribed to his inner circle and not impressed) Andrews blog is far better.

6-Straight out of cam most seem to agree.  Much better options for making the epic pretty though.

8- 1dc definely has banding on smooth gradients , (even in non adobe products)  Add some noise and most of the time your okay

9- ff6k on the Dragon is 1.25 (roughly) so it is actually minutely larger than the 1dc. 19 megapixels as well. 18 for 1dc

 

" that's not important to me if the 1dc gives me no need to grade at all"

Lets be reasonable. Can you honestly say you would make a movie (other than a doc or reality) where you wouldn't have it graded?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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In the DSLR and consumer/mid-pro video space Canon has the best color science and it's reflected in their sales. The ultimate camera for consumers might be a Sony sensor, Canon color science, and Apple product design and GUI. As noted in the post in the 5D4 thread, Sony can match and exceed Canon (and ARRI) in color science if they want to (F55 matching Alexa, F65 exceeding it). This is cool because we know we've got options if Canon isn't able to provide solutions we're looking for.

The 1DC is a fantastic camera- it was priced at $12K and stayed there for a long time. There wasn't really any competition for what it offered. That's now changing, and thus the price drop.

I have not used a 1DC, however the 5D3 also has Canon's color science. The 5D3 is currently the best value in pro-level DSLRs for stills (Nikon Dxxx are also pretty good). During still photoshoots, after we're done working with the 5D3, I'll take a few shots with the A7S and Canon lenses. Out of the camera Canon images look superior: much better skin tones and color. Talent always loves the look. The right amount of saturation in the mids (skin tones), nice highlights, shadows, etc. The A7S also looks nice, but must be tweaked in post to look great. In very low light, the A7S passes the 5D3 with better noise behavior (much less fixed pattern noise). I would expect the 1DC to exceed the 5D3 and it looks like it does in noise processing: reduced grain and artifacts.

Cameras and lenses are our paint brushes and canvas- to create art, to inspire, to communicate. To capture and transmit emotion, to tell a story. Each tool will have a different effect on the art created, a different emotion. Many times when discussing tools we get trapped in logic, sometimes illusion, and emotion goes the wrong way while being ignored. The energy of our emotions propagates to others- do we feel better when we help each other? When we learn new things without our ego blinding us? At the end of our lives, what do we look back and think about changing? Sharing knowledge with others, helping others, making them laugh, entertaining them, or something else?

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Which camera is "better" is subjective and based on user experience, requirements and taste. I haven't used the A7s, FS7, Red or Arri but of course they all produce stellar results. For my needs the 1Dc provides the convenience of 4K in camera, very sharp HD in super 35 mode and excellent stills in one small package. Full frame 50/60p is a bit soft but looks ok after sharpening in post.

1Dc 4K log looks very cinematic and is easy to grade if exposed optimally. The histogram would be useful if it would stay on while recording but unfortunately that's not the case. This is my only gripe with the 1Dc. Canon could address this with firmware.. it seems likely the dual digic processors would be capable of generating a waveform and histogram. I don't like having to rely on an external monitor for this.

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Onto topic: I remember testing images of the 1Dc 4K vs 6k Red Dragon frame, took them onto Vegas and graded them, the 1dc image was markedly better, it really did surprise me. It's more 35mm like than dragon, way more. This says a lot about the 1dc, and at the new price it's a real winner... I am actually watching all the reviews and stretching o get one & sell all my gear and hopefully finaly feel emotionally satisfied with the images Philip Bloom did a wonderful review if anyone missed, on youtube, he shows how 4k vs s35 vs ff vs 60p modes compare in real life. The s35 mode looks like down sampled 4k, and can be recorded to Ipb small files, isn't that lovely? 4K for interviews/landscpes & effeient s35 for the bulk of work... great workflow for wedding/doc/news/event shooters

​Yes it really is this good.

Once you get your head around the ridiculous pricing and ridiculous reluctance of Canon to make simple firmware changes (keeping histo on during a shot as gingercat mentioned is perfect example), you will realise what a good deal it is at the current used prices. Nothing else touches that image internally in such a small camera. The larger cinema cameras have other drawbacks, let alone price. Long boot times, heavy bodies, fans, expensive media, external recorders, v-lock batteries, no thanks. C500 needs an external recorder just to get on par with the 1D C! If Canon release anything this year it HAS to be an internal 4K replacement for the C500 at NAB, it is practically guaranteed but it won't be £5k like my 1D C.

The NX1 is perhaps the closest, so that remains a very good deal.

The A7S internal 1080p is great but I need 4K internal, better build quality and a native EF mount.

I admit I was too harsh on the 1D C then it came out, if there's a bias then it's quite a natural one - I was angry at Canon for putting such a nice image out of reach. This is what the 5D line should have been headed towards all along but they got way too greedy and wrapped up in savagely high mark-up. Unlike Panasonic. Unlike Sony, Unlike Samsung. I still think their business will suffer if this kind of behaviour continues.

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