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Andrew Reid

Canon 1D C to get $4000 price drop February 1st

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So far this is what you guys have said are the benefits of the 1DC that warrant $8,000

 

18MP stills

Low light  (Nope)

Super compact

Long battery

Uses EF lenses  (So does A7s)

Extremely light  (Nope)

Canons colour science  (Nope)

Internal 4K vs Shogun/O7Q

Metal body   (A7s is more than strong enough)

 

So After ruling out the features that the A7s matches or excels at your left with these

18MP stills    (Meh nice but not worth an additional $6,000  also I have a D800 with 36MP stills which has better dynamic range than a 1DC yet I prefer the stills from the A7s because its dynamic range more than makes up for pixels)

Long battery    (Meh nice but not worth an additional $6,000)

Internal 4K vs Shogun/O7Q    (granted but a shogun isnt a burden, its a fantastic monitor with excellent exposure tools)

 

P.s. Just my opinion but I crossed out Canon colour science because its a myth and I dont know where that saying started. I dont call redish skin tones good colour science. C100, C300 and C500 are fine but their DSLRs like  5d's have contrasty unrealistic colour. 

 

The most important thing to accept is that judgement is relative to your experience and experience grows, changes, develops, even sometimes regresses :)

Super compact, compared to what? Compared to the Alexa. Yes. The FS7 is also compact compared to the Alexa and so is the Epic. The 1D C is smaller and lighter than both. Sports journalists run around with it all day without it posing a problem (1D X)

Compared to a GH2, yes it is a lot heavier and larger.

Low light is very good vs the A7S I will show this soon.

EF lenses on the A7S isn't a stable experience I can speak from experience.

Canon colour science, the facts are undeniable there sir. Simon you need to get more experience. The 1D C in 4K C-LOG has C500-like colour, it has nothing to do with the 5D's unrealistic colour in H.264. It's closer to the 5D3 in raw.

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

I freaking love this camera and have from day one.  That price was ridiculous though..  My only curiosity goes with the image.  I had a C100, and didn't notice the really warm cast it had on the overall image until I saw comparison videos with the mark II.  The color is a lot more honest with the new version and updated processor...  which is what that has been attributed to.   While the 1DC and C100 are 2 different cameras and processors,  I'd hate to see an upgrade with better color after I bought a 1DC.  Just curiosity.  Canon seem to be addressing an issue with older image technology

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Canons “Colour science” looks great but is bad. Its not accurate, its a look, a grade embedded in your footage. Yes its a pleasing look but that doesn't make for good colour science, its good marketing. 

 

Good colour science is one that gives you the most REAL result, not the most pleasing. 

 

Wedding photographers and videographers like it because it looks pretty and frankly they are wedding photographers. They are the entry level of the photography industry. Same for wedding videographers. Theres nothing wrong with that and a great place to start. 

 

The only way to get decent colour from a Canon DSLR is Magic Lantern. 

 

Andrew I’m not lacking experience. I’ve been in this game a lot longer than most and yourself. I’ve worked with 1DC and was underwhelmed and thats why I’m asking what seemingly rational people see in this camera. So far the only feature I’ve seen that its better is battery life. 

 

 

To HMCINDIE’s comments. SLOG2 takes some learning, both in shooting and grading.

Saying the A7s’s usability is “piss poor”.  In what way?? Seriously…  If its in a cage its the same as everything else. If its not in a cage then add the battery grip and it feels great (and doubles the battery life) it also has an eyepiece that actually works and that OLED viewfinder is beautiful. I’m never using my z-finder again. 

 

I can't comment on issues you had shooting your tv intro but it wasn't the cameras fault. Either a weird setup or lensing. Buried in the cameras settings theres knee, black detail etc extremely customisable and I’m guessing someone mucked up your settings. 

 

Shogun is a dream and needed even more by something like a 1DC than an A7s for low shots, directors monitor etc not having an articulating screen,. 

 

But does the 1DC even have the capability to output 4K externally to record? or does its HDMI only do HD?  That would be a deal breaker right there. 

 

I just don't find the 1DC’s 4K to be that sharp but then I’m not overly interested in 4K for output. And with the F5 and A7s 4K is ridiculously detailed and no aliasing.

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Simon, knowledge is something I cannot get enough of (imaging related at least). Years  of experience (which you mention) usually equate to knowledge and maybe even wisdom.  So I might possibly learn from and value your perspective,  could you share your background?  (cameraop, colorist, dp)(stills or motion)(what cameras do you currently own and value of your current imaging gear)( broadcast,  docs, commercials, web, print, etc...)(do you usually work as a one man band, a small group, or large teams)? It's understood if this is more than you wish to share. I will also mention I really enjoyed reading Doug Laurents thoughts on the 1dc in earlier posts and am now curios how your experiences have led to another conclusion.  

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Hi Sam,

To me experience doesnt equal good advice so my thoughts are just mine. I started in broadcast in 92 well before digital anything. Shooting sport in Ikigami that needed its own tape machine on a shoulder strap. Worked for several networks. switched from camera to editing (one inch tape then) then switched to commercial directing and control room switching. Then jumped sideways to my hobby which was 3D graphics (in 1998) and did that for 6 years full time as senior graphics specialist for Seven network. Then went out on my own in 2004 and stayed there ever since returning to shooting, editing and maintaining 3D. 

Used about every Sony camera in that time. Canons etc. Edited on about everything. Went full circle in the 3D world from 3DS Max for years to Maya for 10 years and back to 3DS Max years ago.  In non-linear kind of did the same thing Premiere to Final Cut (classic) back to Premiere. 

As for content its a mixture of everything, TVCs to docs, comedy, corporate, dont think I've ever done a music video tho. 

Usually work as small team, occasionally one man band. Grading I use Resolve like most I guess.

This I cut in Premiere, graded in Resolve and shot on the F5.

 

Thats the broad version sorry. 

Cheers,

Simon

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Beautiful. Experience may not equal good advice, but it sure makes for a polished product.   

 What current Mfg in your opinion has the most true to life color science and also the most pleasing?  I use Flicker camera finder to show hundreds of pics onscreen simultaneously by random users, all using the same camera (obviously lens choice and image manipulations come into play).   It is a very good way to observe an overall look by a Mfg.  Definitely something to be said for  ccd's

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Canons “Colour science” looks great but is bad. Its not accurate, its a look, a grade embedded in your footage. Yes its a pleasing look but that doesn't make for good colour science, its good marketing.

 

And with the F5 and A7s 4K is ridiculously detailed and no aliasing.

Canon colour science is respected by people like Antony Dod Mantle, so you wanna pick fights with him? Better come armed with the facts...

A7S has aliasing in 4K, way more moire and false detail than the 1D C in 4K.

That comment alone makes it clear you need to do some more research into this and get the basic facts right.

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I think it should have good dynamic range and with a good white balance when shot, in the edit it should look exactly as you remembered it. Basically reproducing what your eye saw. Good dynamic range is needed there because our eyes are so good. If a camera has that then from there you can make the footage into anything you like in the grade. With a good data rate of course.

To me SLOG2 does that nicely with beautiful highlights. The reason I dont like Canon DSLR colour (not including magic lantern here) is because you can see so often when they've used a 5D to shoot for example. It jumps out at you, has a certain look. Redish faces, a slight glow maybe which I'm not sure could come from in cam noise reduction or just the codec?

Most cameras are getting so good now they are much the same in image quality but still big differences in handling.  The F5 for example, beautiful image but slow menu navigation. A7s is a much faster camera to work with. Fast menus with heaps of software assignable buttons that the F5 could only dream of. Crazy for a $2500 camera. You cant really judge by price anymore. 

You can perhaps grade any camera to look like anything but if the camera has poor dynamic range then that will be the limiting factor. 

Good dynamic range above 13 stops. 

I do actually have one piece of advice which I was taught a long time ago.  CUT ON MOTION  by that I mean if someone is lifting a glass of water dont cut when the glass reaches the face to another angle, but before when its in mid motion. Shutting a car door, cut mid motion not after the door shuts..  That sort of thing. 

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I think it should have good dynamic range and with a good white balance when shot, in the edit it should look exactly as you remembered it. Basically reproducing what your eye saw. Good dynamic range is needed there because our eyes are so good. If a camera has that then from there you can make the footage into anything you like in the grade. With a good data rate of course.

I don't need to take lectures from people who have never shot with the 1D C on where it's strengths and weaknesses lie.

I have both the A7S and 1D C under one roof and they're both great.

You're making wild claims like the only way to get good colour from Canon DSLRs is with Magic Lantern, because that's your experience with the 5D, as it is mine. The 1D C is a different beast.

To me SLOG2 does that nicely with beautiful highlights. The reason I dont like Canon DSLR colour (not including magic lantern here) is because you can see so often when they've used a 5D to shoot for example. It jumps out at you, has a certain look. Redish faces, a slight glow maybe which I'm not sure could come from in cam noise reduction or just the codec?

What does the 5D H.264 have to do with the 1D C? We all know it's shit! I've been saying as much on EOSHD for 3 years!!

Most cameras are getting so good now they are much the same in image quality but still big differences in handling.  The F5 for example, beautiful image but slow menu navigation. A7s is a much faster camera to work with. Fast menus with heaps of software assignable buttons that the F5 could only dream of. Crazy for a $2500 camera. You cant really judge by price anymore. 

I agree. So what's with the combative nature of your post!? It should be a dick swinging contest on my forums, perhaps we need more girls around to make the discussion more rational.

You can perhaps grade any camera to look like anything but if the camera has poor dynamic range then that will be the limiting factor. 

Good dynamic range above 13 stops.

1D C is a good 12 stops, I used both the 1D C and A7S and they have similar dynamic range internally but the A7S S-LOG 2 output has issues in 4K over HDMI.

I do actually have one piece of advice which I was taught a long time ago.  CUT ON MOTION  by that I mean if someone is lifting a glass of water dont cut when the glass reaches the face to another angle, but before when its in mid motion. Shutting a car door, cut mid motion not after the door shuts..  That sort of thing. 

​Congratulations on your experience. Now do us a favour and get more experience with the 1D C before spouting crap.

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Your 1DC looks mushy.

Can it even output 4K over HDMI?

My post never mentioned the 1DC but in all your quotes you just replied with 7 mentions of the 1DC...  There was nothing in what I wrote that was a pissing contest but you just made it into an intelligence contest..

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The 1D C has terrible ergonomics only so far as they couldn't be bothered to change the ergonomics of the 1D X.

However, compare it to the FS7 or the Blackmagic Cinema Camera... And it's actually a lot simpler, smaller, lighter, more straight forward due to the lack of bells and whistles.

So for certain shooting styles it works better. An EVF doesn't have to be expensive you can put a £100 loupe on the back and you have your EVF.

Then stick a gorilla pod under it, shoot it to your eye and you have your handheld rig without the need to add weight or shoulder rigs, etc. Works very well.

On a tripod it needs an articulated monitor of some kind but again, what's so hard about a Small HD DP4?

You can also have the operator work off the back LCD whilst a second person monitors off a large monitor somewhere on set, via wireless HDMI transmitter with the Paralinx Triton.

Also for docu it has more stealth than a dedicated video cam as it still looks like a stills DSLR.

Yes there are workarounds - however I do think you need a decent EVF/Monitor with peaking etc as focusing in 4k is critical.

I think it produces a lovely image, but it's still a very hard purchase to justify for my uses with other options available. 

It's a great stills and narrative camera and ... but for anything else, I think there are much better choices. :) 

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Your 1DC looks mushy.

Can it even output 4K over HDMI?

My post never mentioned the 1DC but in all your quotes you just replied with 7 mentions of the 1DC...  There was nothing in what I wrote that was a pissing contest but you just made it into an intelligence contest..

​but this thread is a 1dc thread so... isn't it what were all mostly talking about here? Also why would you really need 4k over hdmi if you have internal 4k? Dont get me wrong it would be great to have but hows that a deal breaker? A deal breaker for me would having only 4k through hdmi like the a7s has. You need external stuff which is another thing to rig up when setting up and another potential point of failure. 

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Your 1DC looks mushy.

Yeah, right ok.

My post never mentioned the 1DC

Your posts have mentioned it 8 times so far, I just counted :)

but in all your quotes you just replied with 7 mentions of the 1DC...  There was nothing in what I wrote that was a pissing contest but you just made it into an intelligence contest..

​If you're going to get nasty in a personal way Simon, you know where the door is.

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Simon needs to remember that everyone has different tastes and opinions on their camera choice, and what they find aesthetically pleasing. 

I personally find the 1DC to have one of the most beautiful, organic images on the market.  However I don't choose to own it simply down to the lack of good slow motion (a request I get for nearly every project). 

Francis Ford Coppola likes the GH2 image more than every other camera (as of 2013). What a rebel!! ;)

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Hi Sam,

To me experience doesnt equal good advice so my thoughts are just mine. I started in broadcast in 92 well before digital anything. Shooting sport in Ikigami that needed its own tape machine on a shoulder strap. Worked for several networks. switched from camera to editing (one inch tape then) then switched to commercial directing and control room switching. Then jumped sideways to my hobby which was 3D graphics (in 1998) and did that for 6 years full time as senior graphics specialist for Seven network. Then went out on my own in 2004 and stayed there ever since returning to shooting, editing and maintaining 3D. 

Used about every Sony camera in that time. Canons etc. Edited on about everything. Went full circle in the 3D world from 3DS Max for years to Maya for 10 years and back to 3DS Max years ago.  In non-linear kind of did the same thing Premiere to Final Cut (classic) back to Premiere. 

As for content its a mixture of everything, TVCs to docs, comedy, corporate, dont think I've ever done a music video tho. 

Usually work as small team, occasionally one man band. Grading I use Resolve like most I guess.

This I cut in Premiere, graded in Resolve and shot on the F5.

 

Thats the broad version sorry. 

Cheers,

Simon

​Simon,
You're actually proud of this work?
There are so many wrong things in it, I don't know where to start even.
Bad, weird and overly saturated colors that don't match from cut to cut, wayyy too contrasty in many shots; generally bad editing and tasteless slow-motion. I just cannot believe why you chose this work to demonstrate your superior taste in color science and cameras, its beyond me.

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