kye Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 On 6/29/2023 at 2:49 AM, zerocool22 said: Ok what picture profile are you guys shooting on? On the panasonic S5 I mainly shot natural. Now I also got an S5II and the natural profile looks very different, now I want to use both camera's on the same shoot, so I figured I want to shoot V-log. And offcourse I did some test shots, and oh my, V-log is soooooo noisy, I was expecting a bit more noise. But the difference is immense. So not sure if I should use natural on both camera's and try to match them as good as possible, or try my luck with V-log on this shoot (there is a significant DR bump in V-log though, but not sure if its worth the trade off in Noise). I want to avoid post noise reduction. (I just tried the noise reduction on V-log in Camera from 0 to 5 (half way). But I don't see any major difference really. What is the rest of your image pipeline? If you're uploading to virtually any streaming service then their compression will do you a huge favour by removing almost all the noise in the image. I did a test of creating a video with increasing levels of noise and then uploaded it to YT, and was absolutely stunned at the amount of noise I had to have on the timeline before any noise was visible in the output at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSMW Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 8 hours ago, hyalinejim said: I shoot V-Log and don't burn the lut in. It definitely makes monitoring easier. I am edging towards burning it in… Why? Well I did with the Gamut LUT a couple of times and quite liked the result, especially from a workflow POV. But the problem I had was/is using 2x S5ii and 1x S1H as the latter does not have the option so there’s no consistency and even the subtle differences between the two models is something that needs more work…hence why I am still pondering whether I should shift that S1H now for that X that is sitting in an unopened box back home on my office desk… For most, burning in the LUT probably is not for them, but I only shoot one thing; and my primary client when it comes to aesthetics, is myself, so in principle, it works for me. I will need to investigate this but I presume it is possible to take say the Phantom Arri Neutral LUT and in Photoshop using a frame grab, add a mild further creative grade and then make a .cube file or something from it to then use as my ‘one and done’ in camera? You know about this stuff Jim. Can I do that or am I talking bollocks?! I’m pretty good these days with exposure, WB etc and mostly nailing my lighting (use of natural and created) so rarely far off in camera. This is not anything I ‘need’ to do at this time but always considering the direction of my work which is a certain subtle but distinct aesthetic, as seamless as possible workflow and possibly the integration of high quality frame grabs as a high proportion of my work. Re. the latter, I have been looking at it with each film I produce and nah, 25 or 30p using the 180 degree rule, even in 6k, rarely offers any opportunity. Waaaay too much motion blur! I had more success shooting 4k 50p last year so realistically and theoretically, I’m going to be waiting on a minimum spec of; 6k 50p and probably ditching the ND’s in favour of over-cranking the shutter speeds. Or even shooting quadruple the shutter speed rather than double with the ND? It’s finding the time to play this time of year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSMW Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 8 hours ago, hyalinejim said: I shoot V-Log and don't burn the lut in. It definitely makes monitoring easier. I am edging towards burning it in… Why? Well I did with the Gamut LUT a couple of times and quite liked the result, especially from a workflow POV. But the problem I had was/is using 2x S5ii and 1x S1H as the latter does not have the option so there’s no consistency and even the subtle differences between the two models is something that needs more work…hence why I am still pondering whether I should shift that S1H now for that X that is sitting in an unopened box back home on my office desk… For most, burning in the LUT probably is not for them, but I only shoot one thing; and my primary client when it comes to aesthetics, is myself, so in principle, it works for me. I will need to investigate this but I presume it is possible to take say the Phantom Arri Neutral LUT and in Photoshop using a frame grab, add a mild further creative grade and then make a .cube file or something from it to then use as my ‘one and done’ in camera? You know about this stuff Jim. Can I do that or am I talking bollocks?! I’m pretty good these days with exposure, WB etc and mostly nailing my lighting (use of natural and created) so rarely far off in camera. This is not anything I ‘need’ to do at this time but always considering the direction of my work which is a certain subtle but distinct aesthetic, as seamless as possible workflow and possibly the integration of high quality frame grabs as a high proportion of my work. Re. the latter, I have been looking at it with each film I produce and nah, 25 or 30p using the 180 degree rule, even in 6k, rarely offers any opportunity. Waaaay too much motion blur! I had more success shooting 4k 50p last year so realistically and theoretically, I’m going to be waiting on a minimum spec of; 6k 50p and probably ditching the ND’s in favour of over-cranking the shutter speeds. Or even shooting quadruple the shutter speed rather than double with the ND? It’s finding the time to play this time of year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSMW Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 8 hours ago, hyalinejim said: I shoot V-Log and don't burn the lut in. It definitely makes monitoring easier. I am edging towards burning it in… Why? Well I did with the Gamut LUT a couple of times and quite liked the result, especially from a workflow POV. But the problem I had was/is using 2x S5ii and 1x S1H as the latter does not have the option so there’s no consistency and even the subtle differences between the two models is something that needs more work…hence why I am still pondering whether I should shift that S1H now for that X that is sitting in an unopened box back home on my office desk… For most, burning in the LUT probably is not for them, but I only shoot one thing; and my primary client when it comes to aesthetics, is myself, so in principle, it works for me. I will need to investigate this but I presume it is possible to take say the Phantom Arri Neutral LUT and in Photoshop using a frame grab, add a mild further creative grade and then make a .cube file or something from it to then use as my ‘one and done’ in camera? You know about this stuff Jim. Can I do that or am I talking bollocks?! I’m pretty good these days with exposure, WB etc and mostly nailing my lighting (use of natural and created) so rarely far off in camera. This is not anything I ‘need’ to do at this time but always considering the direction of my work which is a certain subtle but distinct aesthetic, as seamless as possible workflow and possibly the integration of high quality frame grabs as a high proportion of my work. Re. the latter, I have been looking at it with each film I produce and nah, 25 or 30p using the 180 degree rule, even in 6k, rarely offers any opportunity. Waaaay too much motion blur! I had more success shooting 4k 50p last year so realistically and theoretically, I’m going to be waiting on a minimum spec of; 6k 50p and probably ditching the ND’s in favour of over-cranking the shutter speeds. Or even shooting quadruple the shutter speed rather than double with the ND? Ie, say if any S1H replacement offers 6k 50p, then instead of a shutter speed of 1/100, use 1/200 which won’t freeze all action, but there’s rarely much action at a wedding that needs a faster shutter speed. Choppy looking video? Not really at 50% slow mo… Dozens of 2 second clips etc. The longer stuff such as full length ceremony that is going to be played back at 100% speed, shoot ‘properly’, so I’m just talking clips. It’s finding the time to play this time of year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSMW Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 8 hours ago, hyalinejim said: I shoot V-Log and don't burn the lut in. It definitely makes monitoring easier. I am edging towards burning it in… Why? Well I did with the Gamut LUT a couple of times and quite liked the result, especially from a workflow POV. But the problem I had was/is using 2x S5ii and 1x S1H as the latter does not have the option so there’s no consistency and even the subtle differences between the two models is something that needs more work…hence why I am still pondering whether I should shift that S1H now for that X that is sitting in an unopened box back home on my office desk… For most, burning in the LUT probably is not for them, but I only shoot one thing; and my primary client when it comes to aesthetics, is myself, so in principle, it works for me. I will need to investigate this but I presume it is possible to take say the Phantom Arri Neutral LUT and in Photoshop using a frame grab, add a mild further creative grade and then make a .cube file or something from it to then use as my ‘one and done’ in camera? You know about this stuff Jim. Can I do that or am I talking bollocks?! I’m pretty good these days with exposure, WB etc and mostly nailing my lighting (use of natural and created) so rarely far off in camera. This is not anything I ‘need’ to do at this time but always considering the direction of my work which is a certain subtle but distinct aesthetic, as seamless as possible workflow and possibly the integration of high quality frame grabs as a high proportion of my work. Re. the latter, I have been looking at it with each film I produce and nah, 25 or 30p using the 180 degree rule, even in 6k, rarely offers any opportunity. Waaaay too much motion blur! I had more success shooting 4k 50p last year so realistically and theoretically, I’m going to be waiting on a minimum spec of; 6k 50p and probably ditching the ND’s in favour of over-cranking the shutter speeds. Or even shooting quadruple the shutter speed rather than double with the ND? Ie, say if any S1H replacement offers 6k 50p, then instead of a shutter speed of 1/100, use 1/200 which won’t freeze all action, but there’s rarely much action at a wedding that needs a faster shutter speed. Choppy looking video? Not really at 50% slow mo… Dozens of 2 second clips etc. The longer stuff such as full length ceremony that is going to be played back at 100% speed, shoot ‘properly’, so I’m just talking clips. It’s finding the time to play this time of year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSMW Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 Sorry. Something weird going on above with the quad post! 🤪 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSMW Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 On 6/28/2023 at 10:25 PM, newfoundmass said: I think the S1H has a slightly nicer image, but I think the benefits of the X and the convenience of having three of the same cameras makes more sense. And final decision made… The S1H is staying and the S5IIX going back without breaking the seals of the packaging never mind the box. I went into this weekends 3 day shoot edging towards the 3 identical camera body approach, which I would prefer in principle, plus smaller, lighter, faster, newer has certain benefits, but… The S1H is just too good a stills camera. Yes, stills. It’s meant to be ‘The Video One’ but actually excels as a stills camera for shooting people and events because it’s that little bit less critically sharp than the others without The OLPF. And then there is build, the ergos, the feel of the thing to use and the shutter sound is just sublime. The S5ii by comparison feels and sounds tinny. So decision made. I can’t sell or not use the best camera I have ever used. At least not until a genuine replacement comes along. When or if that happens, but otherwise the S1H is being reconfigured in my line up as principal stills with occasional video and the S5ii’s becoming more video specific and less stills. Same kit, just re-jiggled about a bit! I think the gimbal is going though. Just not getting any real use out of it and the S5ii is pretty good in that department for my limited needs. Walter H, Juank and j_one 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_one Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 On 7/2/2023 at 3:20 AM, MrSMW said: And final decision made… The S1H is staying and the S5IIX going back without breaking the seals of the packaging never mind the box. I went into this weekends 3 day shoot edging towards the 3 identical camera body approach, which I would prefer in principle, plus smaller, lighter, faster, newer has certain benefits, but… The S1H is just too good a stills camera. Yes, stills. It’s meant to be ‘The Video One’ but actually excels as a stills camera for shooting people and events because it’s that little bit less critically sharp than the others without The OLPF. And then there is build, the ergos, the feel of the thing to use and the shutter sound is just sublime. The S5ii by comparison feels and sounds tinny. So decision made. I can’t sell or not use the best camera I have ever used. At least not until a genuine replacement comes along. When or if that happens, but otherwise the S1H is being reconfigured in my line up as principal stills with occasional video and the S5ii’s becoming more video specific and less stills. Same kit, just re-jiggled about a bit! I think the gimbal is going though. Just not getting any real use out of it and the S5ii is pretty good in that department for my limited needs. Glad you got it sorted (for now, I'm going to start keeping tally score of your re-configurations lol) I think the only real reason I'd want the X is for All-I recording with the RAW upgrade thrown in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSMW Posted July 8, 2023 Share Posted July 8, 2023 On 7/3/2023 at 6:33 PM, j_one said: Glad you got it sorted (for now, I'm going to start keeping tally score of your re-configurations lol) Keep an eye on this thread then https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/75353-vintage-zoom-lenses-with-ibis/#comment-577142 as I am going to try a vintage zoom lens 😉 My current S5ii AF problem caused me to consider how I might best use this unit for the remainder of my season before I can send it in under warranty to be fixed. Also, because the S1H is my preferred option for stills, that with the Sigma 28-70 f2.8 paired with the slightly dicky S5ii shooting video only with the 40-80 could make a very nice pairing for me. My other S5ii will cover off any AF video needs and longer static duty on a tripod. Could be a great set up but will withhold judgement until I can test it… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyalinejim Posted July 8, 2023 Share Posted July 8, 2023 Drum roll please.... I've finally got around to creating and releasing a LUT that gives accurate colour on the S5II and S5IIx. Big thanks to @Andrew Reid for allowing me to post about this. It's available here: https://lumasweet.com/shop/p/lumasweetlifelikes5ii I'll get around to doing a write up on it at some stage. In the meantime, here's a YT video (don't laugh!) that I made about it. This might also be of interest to anyone who's interested in camera colour science in general, even if you don't have this camera. newfoundmass, Simon Young, MrSMW and 4 others 5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted July 8, 2023 Share Posted July 8, 2023 4 hours ago, hyalinejim said: Drum roll please.... I've finally got around to creating and releasing a LUT that gives accurate colour on the S5II and S5IIx. Big thanks to @Andrew Reid for allowing me to post about this. It's available here: https://lumasweet.com/shop/p/lumasweetlifelikes5ii I'll get around to doing a write up on it at some stage. In the meantime, here's a YT video (don't laugh!) that I made about it. This might also be of interest to anyone who's interested in camera colour science in general, even if you don't have this camera. Well done on getting such a great match... and the video too. Your career as a camera influencer has begun!! hyalinejim and 92F 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyalinejim Posted July 8, 2023 Share Posted July 8, 2023 Lol, @kye the amount of time it took me to make that simple video is just ridiculous! And I make videos for a living. I should have known better 😂 I am proud of the colour conversion though. I spent a long time trying to get it as close as possible without breaking the image. And that's the kind of stuff I do actually enjoy. For me, it's the digital equivalent of pottering around in the garden shed. 92F and kye 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSMW Posted July 8, 2023 Share Posted July 8, 2023 Great use of the Luma Colour Checker shirt Jim 👍 The only question I have is why a massive company like Panasonic are SO SHIT at doing this themselves?! I don’t know anything about this kind of thing but it’s my mission to understand more over this Winter and once this season is done, I think I’m going to need to give your LUT a whirl at the same time as learning Resolve. hyalinejim 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted July 8, 2023 Share Posted July 8, 2023 2 hours ago, MrSMW said: Great use of the Luma Colour Checker shirt Jim 👍 The only question I have is why a massive company like Panasonic are SO SHIT at doing this themselves?! I don’t know anything about this kind of thing but it’s my mission to understand more over this Winter and once this season is done, I think I’m going to need to give your LUT a whirl at the same time as learning Resolve. Panasonic will be getting exactly the results they want to be getting - they're just aiming at a different target. That target might be a different colour science, or it might be to cover up any image problems that creep in when shooting in odd situations like low-light, coloured lighting, poor CRI lighting, etc etc. These are just guesses of course. IIRC there was a test some years ago on the most accurate camera, and Sony won by a good margin, and this was in the middle of their time as being regarded as having terrible colour science. The name of the game is providing something that has the nicest and most flattering colour science across the widest range of images. In my analyses (of which I've done several) this typically involves making skin-tones more flattering, and giving subtle tweaks to the rest of the image by emphasising the warm/cool axis and de-emphasising the green/magenta axis. The standard Panasonic 709 colour reproduction @hyalinejim shows in the video is rather odd because it's not really following the normal patterns that I've seen, even in other Panasonic cameras. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSMW Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 8 hours ago, kye said: Panasonic will be getting exactly the results they want to be getting - they're just aiming at a different target. Which to me seems an odd way of doing things ie, to my way of thinking, there would be one single accurate as possible conversion LUT and then you take it any direction you wish with a creative LUT or manually. Yes, I remember that test that Sony won with more picking their images in a blind test than anyone else’s. I was a Fuji user at the time and was most offended… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 6 minutes ago, MrSMW said: Which to me seems an odd way of doing things ie, to my way of thinking, there would be one single accurate as possible conversion LUT and then you take it any direction you wish with a creative LUT or manually. Yes, I remember that test that Sony won with more picking their images in a blind test than anyone else’s. I was a Fuji user at the time and was most offended… I disagree. Panasonic is in the business of selling cameras to people, the vast majority of whom either couldn't colour grade their images to save their lives, or can't even spell LUT. However, they have managed to include a couple of features that cater to the more informed, the first of which is the inclusion of V-Log which caters to those who can spell LUT but aren't the most discerning control freaks on the planet. The second, and most refined option is to use the external RAW capability, which is the most neutral, and requires the most effort in post to get a good image. This three-tiered system allows Panasonic to be the most pleasing for people that can't troubleshoot the images, and the most neutral to those with the most capability, with the V-Log tier being the middle-one - it's not the most accurate and it's not the least accurate. It's like a political dog-whistle, only in camera marketing terms. You can cater to multiple markets without them suffering from the limitations of the other markets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSMW Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 Maybe and that is why I am actually quite interested in raw as I’d like to explore having an image with the most latitude in post. However, contrary to that, I am also interested in a SOOC baked in look! Winter time will have to be my playground and ideally, my next camera will have internal raw as I really do not wish to buy an external monitor, or even worse, use one. From an ergonomic working perspective of a hybrid shooter. It’s not nimble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyalinejim Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 2 hours ago, MrSMW said: to my way of thinking, there would be one single accurate as possible conversion LUT and then you take it any direction you wish with a creative LUT or manually The problem is that there is only one conversion, the V35 to V709, but it's not accurate for all cameras because there are different sensors in them. I don't know if it was even accurate for the V35! Ideally, Panasonic would either calibrate the V-Log colour for each model so that it matches the input that the LUT expects (there is an internal transform from RAW to V-Log), or else create a custom conversion that's specific to each model. If you want an accurate as possible conversion for the S5II or S5IIx then LumaSweet Lifelike will do that job. 11 hours ago, kye said: The standard Panasonic 709 colour reproduction @hyalinejim shows in the video is rather odd because it's not really following the normal patterns that I've seen, even in other Panasonic cameras. From what I've seen of other cameras (GH5 and GH6) they're all significantly different from each other, and there's no real pattern to it, other than they all share bright, desaturated blues (though not to the same extent). Reds are all over the place between the three models. People complained about magenta skintones on the GH5. The GH6 has much brighter skintones (which looks nicer) but it's too far towards orange to be accurate. The hue of S5II skin is fairly accurate but it's so dark as to cause blotchiness. The only scope Panasonic has for calibrating colour across models under their current system is in the internal RAW to V-Log conversion for each camera. They're stuck with the problem of varying sensors (or colour filter arrays, IR filter, or whatever other hardware is causing the colour variations). They're stuck with a single conversion LUT. I guess the only thing they can tweak is the matrix that converts RAW colour to V-gamut. This is just a grid of numbers and is a very general kind of correction. Its effect on colour can be a bit like herding cats. And I would guess that this is why the colour varies so much between models. I'd love to know if it's the same problem with Canon and Sony, or whether their implementations of log are a bit more consistent. kye 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 5 hours ago, hyalinejim said: From what I've seen of other cameras (GH5 and GH6) they're all significantly different from each other, and there's no real pattern to it, other than they all share bright, desaturated blues (though not to the same extent). Interesting. The only ones I've compared with any level of attention are the GH5 and GX85, which seemed so similar that after doing my initial comparisons I just wrote them off as being "the same", which in my context is probably better defined as "similar enough that any differences between cameras are small compared to the normal differences between different scenes, so there's no reason to develop a transformation to match them in my projects". The testing I did was to shoot a real-world scene and also a colour chart, then I matched the GH5 to the GX85 by adding contrast and saturation and looking at the results on the waveform monitor and vector scope, paying attention to the curve, the rotation and saturations of the patches on the chart. They were close enough that I assumed all Panasonic cameras would match, as that seems the most likely assumption you'd make. So I just moved onto matching the iPhone with the GX85, and (referring to the above definition) that was definitely NOT "the same" 🙂 5 hours ago, hyalinejim said: The only scope Panasonic has for calibrating colour across models under their current system is in the internal RAW to V-Log conversion for each camera. They're stuck with the problem of varying sensors (or colour filter arrays, IR filter, or whatever other hardware is causing the colour variations). They're stuck with a single conversion LUT. I agree that the RAW->Profile is the only place they could match them, and I would have assumed that they would have done this. It's odd to hear they haven't! I mean, all you'd have to do is profile each camera, which would involve the same kind of setups that you'd need for testing them during the design phase, and then just install the transformation as a LUT. They're developing a bunch of them anyway, for each of the 709 colour profiles, so why they wouldn't do custom ones each time seems to be a false economy - especially considering how many of their users would own multiple models and shoot in multi-cam setups or at least multi-camera projects. Also, if you profile each camera, you don't have to re-do the colour profiles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSMW Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 @kye do you ever sleep? Or are you a vampire or at least something of a night owl because I thought you were in the US but post regularly during our Europe daytime?! IronFilm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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