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newfoundmass

Budget Stereo Microphone Options?

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10 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I'm looking for something that picks up pretty much all the noise, from the action in the wrestling ring / to the crowd. I want the viewer to feel like they're there in the building. While the camera mics aren't terrible for this, I would like something better. 

Based on this particular requirement, where you are wanting to capture behind as well forward of the camera, I'd see if you could get a demo of the Zoom H3VR ambisonic mic/recorder.

Its slightly different (and slightly more expensive too) in being a recorder as well but it can be camera mounted and has a line out to feed the camera a guide track for easy sync later.

Because it records in the Ambisonics format you then have the ability to steer the listening position in post to create the balance that you need between the action and the crowd.

I am looking to buy one of these myself but haven't as yet so can't vouch for the quality at all (and the price of £300 is very cheap in comparison to anything else you'd need to have this capability) so as I say try and get a demo of it first.

This is a demo that B&H did of it recording a jazz quartet in binaural mode so pop your headphones on to listen.

It is meant for 360 viewing really but if you view it flat with the trumpet player and bass player facing you then you should be able to get the placement cues of the sax and guitar player to the rear of the listening position. 

When recorded in ambisonic mode, you will be able to alter the listening position to alter the balance to suit what you are after to make it more immersive.

 

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43 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Based on this particular requirement, where you are wanting to capture behind as well forward of the camera, I'd see if you could get a demo of the Zoom H3VR ambisonic mic/recorder.

Its slightly different (and slightly more expensive too) in being a recorder as well but it can be camera mounted and has a line out to feed the camera a guide track for easy sync later.

Because it records in the Ambisonics format you then have the ability to steer the listening position in post to create the balance that you need between the action and the crowd.

I am looking to buy one of these myself but haven't as yet so can't vouch for the quality at all (and the price of £300 is very cheap in comparison to anything else you'd need to have this capability) so as I say try and get a demo of it first.

This is a demo that B&H did of it recording a jazz quartet in binaural mode so pop your headphones on to listen.

It is meant for 360 viewing really but if you view it flat with the trumpet player and bass player facing you then you should be able to get the placement cues of the sax and guitar player to the rear of the listening position. 

When recorded in ambisonic mode, you will be able to alter the listening position to alter the balance to suit what you are after to make it more immersive

 

These microphones are very interesting to me, not to use practically, but just appreciation of the tech.

Do you know what kind of beam width / polar response they can simulate?

It looks like the original materials are now gone, but this 2010 technology announcement was very impressive - you could clearly hear what two people were saying to each other in the fullon environment of a basketball game.

https://singularityhub.com/2010/10/13/new-super-microphone-can-hear-you-in-a-crowded-stadium-video/

 

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7 hours ago, kye said:

In case it's relevant, I've read a lot about how audio engineers record music, and an example is how to record an orchestra.  They record using a directional stereo pair seated in the centre in the first few rows, or hung a bit above the orchestra looking slightly down.  Then there's a second pair of mics that are omni-directional that are hung way up in the ceiling space of the venue, on the left and right sides of the hall, either about a third of the way back from the stage or even further back.  
The idea is that the stereo pair give the stereo imaging, and the omni mics give ambience and scale to the recording.  They just pan them hard right and left and then adjust the two pairs to give a balance of directional and ambience.

I sometimes do the 'low budget' equivalent of that outdoors, by having the TM-2X mic on the camera and a Tascam DR-05 recorder alongside it (which has two omni-directional mic capsules to effectively record somewhat diffuse stereo). Then I mix and match between the two recordings at the editing stage.

Also, if you want some behind-the-mic sound 'surround sound', remember that a simple 90 degree crossed-pair cardioid capsule mic arrangement (like a lot of stereo mics are, including the TM-2X) provides some of that as anti-phase signal (subtract the Left/Right channels to extract it in post).

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5 minutes ago, kye said:

These microphones are very interesting to me, not to use practically, but just appreciation of the tech.

Do you know what kind of beam width / polar response they can simulate?

It looks like the original materials are now gone, but this 2010 technology announcement was very impressive - you could clearly hear what two people were saying to each other in the fullon environment of a basketball game.

https://singularityhub.com/2010/10/13/new-super-microphone-can-hear-you-in-a-crowded-stadium-video/

 

It is not going to give you the same targeting capabilities of that array of 360 microphones but it is capable of some flexibility in the simulation of different polar patterns.

The original Soundfield ambisonic microphones have been used for many years for orchestral recording and the advent of DAWs and plugins now makes it more effective for post targeting.

https://www.prosoundweb.com/topics/studio/soundfield_sps200_microphone_used_on_recent_abbey_road_session/

Some more general information here, although it is related to a product but is useful nonetheless as the principles are the same in other products.

https://knightlab.northwestern.edu/2018/03/29/capturing-the-soundfield/ 

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13 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

I've ordered the TM-2X and the Movo VXR3000. Figured I'd give the Movo a shot; I can always return it. 

What is the overall setup you're planning to implement?  ie, channel 1 & 2 directional stereo pair into camera 1, etc...

I'm curious :) 

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13 hours ago, kye said:

What is the overall setup you're planning to implement?  ie, channel 1 & 2 directional stereo pair into camera 1, etc...

I'm curious :) 

So I'm going to put the TM-2X on my ringside / handheld camera and try the Movo VXR3000 on my hard camera to try and get cleaner arena / crowd noise. 

The two announcers will use my Audio-Technica AT875R and Azden SGM-250CX mics into a Zoom recorder. Making use of what I have. :)

A Zoom H1 will go under the ring to get good ring noise. 

Not perfect but I'm hoping I'll see better sound that isn't so flat. I don't have the most knowledge about audio, it's one of the things I'm still learning, but it seems like a good start. 🤞🏻

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On 5/16/2019 at 4:12 AM, newfoundmass said:

I just realized I probably could've just used one of my Zoom H1s as a stereo mic into my camera 😂

Oh well. 

Well, yes (with some more messing about with an attenuator cable), but you have to remember to turn it on and put it into record (or record pause) etc. - and the small handheld recorders I've used (not tried an H1 though) are generally bad for handling noise, so you also ideally need a shock mount for it.

The beauty of plugin-powered mics like the TM-2X is that you just turn the camera on and it's working - perfect for 'run and gun' style use, and it's got a shock mount built-in.

(P.S. I think the TM-2X sounds better in 'high sensitivity' mode - there is a low/high switch on it - so I use that mode and turn the recording level well down in the camera, but your mileage may vary, especially if you are in a very loud environment).

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On 5/12/2019 at 8:46 PM, ac6000cw said:

I've used a Tascam TM-2X on several Pana G-series cameras and been very happy with it. Note it needs 'plug-in power' on the mic socket to work.

https://tascam.com/us/product/tm-2x/top

(the plastic extension arm is optional - I've never used it, the basic mic is relatively small)

I had a TM-2X that I  bought to use with a Tascam DR-60D mk2 -- I turned on the plug-in power and was set to go, but the noise floor was not good. I do understand that the preamp for input 3/4 on the DR-60D is not the best, but I returned the TM-2X immediately. That said, might be just the thing for a wrestling film. ;) "Noise floor? What? I can't hear you!"

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