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Robinhood

Best APSc camera with 4:3 mode and x2 squeeze

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1 hour ago, KnightsFan said:

I don't believe there are any others. I'm not familiar with current ML capabilities. Maybe some other ML cameras can shoot 4:3 as well.

The GH5s/P4K/E2 are all very low resolution, primarily designed for video. I wouldn't recommend taking photos with them.

A speed booster is not required, no.

To answer your question from before...

No. Instead of thinking of the speed booster as widening your lens, think of it as enlarging your sensor. If you put a speed booster on an APS-C camera, you now have a full frame camera. If a lens vignettes on full frame, it will vignette on APS-C+speed booster. In fact it might even vignette MORE with wide lenses with large apertures.

1

Hmmm this is very good information. Well, I know the stills get worse on the S series versus the regular GH5 but I do like the idea that there is absolutely not crop factors whatsoever in all different aspect ratio shooting modes on this sensor.

But can you confirm that if a user was to snap a still while on 4:3 mode with a 2X adaptor, the still image would come out of camera already de-squeezed at 2.66 OR would it be squeezed and in a 4:3 container ready for post processing? If all stills taken while even on video mode, revert back to 16x9, I will be extremely disappointed. I hate how the ML hack hasn't fixed that on the canon's

Also, can someone address the in-camera de-squeeze simulator display function for the GH5s? How does it work and does it actually show an exact display for say 2.66 views so I could monitor and frame without the need for an external recorder (another added cost I do not want to deal with)

In an ideal world I'd have a camera that can upload LUTs and burn them into the footage and stills while in camera like the black magic and also have all that cameras amazing record codecs... but then have those features on an APS-C camera sensor size like the Fuji X-T3 so as to have no need for a speed booster -- and I must say I love the Fuji grain and film stocks options in camera to create an amazing look baked in. Dang...  If I were to pick one to have 4:3 mode it would definitely be the Fuji... since it's color and skin tones are certainly better then the GH5s

 

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

I don't have a GH5 or GH5s so I can't confirm how 4:3 photos or the desqueeze are implemented, sorry.

 

18 minutes ago, Robinhood said:

If all stills taken while even on video mode, revert back to 16x9, I will be extremely disappointed. I hate how the ML hack hasn't fixed that on the canon's

With the 5D3, you can crop the photo to 4:3 and it will have the same FOV as your video.

21 minutes ago, Robinhood said:

In an ideal world I'd have a camera that can upload LUTs and burn them into the footage and stills while in camera like the black magic and also have all that cameras amazing record codecs... but then have those features on an APS-C camera sensor size like the Fuji X-T3 so as to have no need for a speed booster -- and I must say I love the Fuji grain and film stocks options in camera to create an amazing look baked in. Dang...  If I were to pick one to have 4:3 mode it would definitely be the Fuji... since it's color and skin tones are certainly better then the GH5s

Haha, we've all got our list! :)

You have to jump up a few price brackets to get those, unfortunately.

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8 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

I don't have a GH5 or GH5s so I can't confirm how 4:3 photos or the desqueeze are implemented, sorry.

 

With the 5D3, you can crop the photo to 4:3 and it will have the same FOV as your video.

Haha, we've all got our list! :)

You have to jump up a few price brackets to get those, unfortunately.

Hmmmm yeah I mean in many ways-- I am more so looking for a DLSR Stills Camera that can perform the duties of capture anamorphic images in-camera ~ So I can monitor the de-squeeze in camera and then have the ability to take a screen grab/screen capture/snap shot/ of that image.... (in other words, I can then avoid having to purchase and rig up an external recorder)

Because If you think about it: I know now that there are now reverse speed boosters (so I can fit APSC lenses onto my 5Diii and utilize a smaller image circle lenses attached to my 2X adaptor in order to go wider into focal lengths before vignetting) -- this idea won't work....So now i'm in the realm of buying a new camera that is micro 4/3 at $2300  and then a Speed booster to use APSC lenses, and then I gotta get the lenses (the two fuji cine zooms are easily set me back to $6000)
So it's like $9k to get this rig going. CRAZY
And to not have fujifilm and grain looks... or to have built in/burn in LUT options like on the Black Magic.... this is a tough sell

Ohh yeah and then the 2X adaptor is like $2k

So now it's an $11k rig. OUCH. So this is just the reality of this all since I can't use my 5D because it is not really a usable multi-sensor camera hack that allows me to actually utilize the focal lengths I want to be shooting in.... Ugh....  and even if I would save $1k by going with the black magic or Fuji X-t3- those 16x9 modes redrive only as wide as 2.40 on 1.33X adaptors or a super wide 4.00 aspect ratio with a 2X adaptors... but either of these options do NOT capture the real height Vfov that the same lens would see if it were used on a sensor on a 4:3 mode.

hmmmm there is simply just not enough choiced... really there is actually only one choice for users who want to capture actual 2.66 uncropped cinemascope format-- and that is the GH5 or GH5s

Please confirm


 

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One question I haven't asked-- I were to used an apsC camera like that Fuji X-T3 (which only has 16x9)-- if I were to attached an external recorder of some make & model --- do these external recorders have some sort of sensor override function? So do any allow for imposing a multi-sensor size function?

Just trying to find out if there is a work around where I could force a 4:3 sensor mode via an external recorder onto an apsC camera so that I could get 2.66 out of a 2X front element adapter 

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On 10/11/2018 at 6:16 AM, DBounce said:

I'll be testing this out shortly. Just waiting for the Ninja V.

 

IMG_1485.jpg

Heard there's some problem with the Atomos and Fujifilm with using vlog and lut. I think there's a thread here and dvxuser about that. Can't confirm though but just a heads up

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Hey Robinhood, there are many ways to reach your goal, but your question is "complicated" with your obvious restrictions (limited to APS-C, 4:3, x2, and later by LUTs and...).
I presume you asked this question to avoid an good anamorphic adapter, which is expensive.

Please let me simplify your question, and if you accept it, an simplified and quick answer might be.

HOW DO YOU GET A "FINAL" 2.66 FOR A VIDEO RATIO ?

As you can see, I avoid all other complications. You can do it with any camera of your choice but with the proper lens (not anamorphic !).
Just follows the next... steps.

1) Choose the camera which give you the sensor size, Mpixels, low light, IQ color science, LUTs, encoding size and options internal or external, ... you name it, which you think is best for you, since any of these do counts for a final good image.

2) Take 2 stripes of "Painter's masking tape" (I love green one, so you can remove them easy without consequences) and obliterate the UP and DOWN of your LCD camera display to get that 2.66 ratio. You just set-up the proper "finder".

3) Now search for the lens or zoom who fill the image as you wish, most probable in the wide-angle range.

4) Take the shot (I will start with an 4k, DCI or not, widest resolution available).

5) Cut in post the UP and DOWN areas to suit your ratio, or better, fill them with black (or white, or any other color you like - this will help if uploaded to web !!!) and save.

Take this procedure with a grain of salt, but it does comply if you accepted the simplified technical question. :mrgreen:

For a fixed focal lens (no zoom), there is a very simple anamorphic solutions (yes, cheap one) of perfect optical quality, but need a good handy-man to set it properly (better for long focals and smaller sensor  :frown: ), anyway - is for other thread.

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On 11/5/2018 at 4:10 PM, GiM_6x said:


I presume you asked this question to avoid an good anamorphic adapter, which is expensive.

HOW DO YOU GET A "FINAL" 2.66 FOR A VIDEO RATIO ?

2) Take 2 stripes of "Painter's masking tape" (I love green one, so you can remove them easy without consequences) and obliterate the UP and DOWN of your LCD camera display to get that 2.66 ratio. You just set-up the proper "finder".

For a fixed focal lens (no zoom), there is a very simple anamorphic solutions (yes, cheap one) of perfect optical quality, but need a good handy-man to set it properly (better for long focals and smaller sensor  :frown: ), anyway - is for other thread.

9

hello-- thanks for the response. 
For your simple method- I'm already employing this with my canon 5diii using magic lantern to display custom crop marks atop the LiveView. Currently i'm using one for 2.55:1 with a rule of thirds grid line. 2.55 is my final exhibition format. 
However, with this method, it doesn't get passed me that my HFOV is far wider than the same focal lengths of their 35mm film format and are also on a larger format to capture this virtual equivalent. Of course, this method just gets me the same perspective FOV but not with the true DOF and focal length combo as in 35mm cinema after knowing what FF focal lengths will give the same FOV after discovering the crop factor between the two formats.

If I were to do this on a digital stills camera, I found that if I were to shoot on an APS-H sensor size camera that employs a 4:3 mode then I would be the closest to the 4 perf film negative.
the only choice out there right now is this sigma-- which is a really appealing option, yet only has a stills mode and there is no mount adapter to use my EF lenses and I'd also have to get an external recorder simply to de-squeeze it's LiveView to take only stills.
https://www.sigmaphoto.com/sd-quattro-h-camera

Nonetheless, it would be interesting to know which is the best 2x anamorphic solution... that is NOT a projector lens attached.
A single focus non-projector lens 2x anamorphic solution that can go to wide angle focal lengths like 25mm when using a sensor size camera close to apsH
I don't think such a solution exists in the budget DIY adaptor realm but still interested to hear anyone's thoughts

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i'm not sure there is a cheap answer to that question

9 hours ago, Robinhood said:



Nonetheless, it would be interesting to know which is the best 2x anamorphic solution... that is NOT a projector lens attached.
A single focus non-projector lens 2x anamorphic solution that can go to wide angle focal lengths like 25mm when using a sensor size camera close to apsH
I don't think such a solution exists in the budget DIY adaptor realm but still interested to hear anyone's thoughts

there are answers to your question, however i dont think any of them are cheap plus getting down to 25 mm is a big ask i think maybe im wrong but i doubt it will be cheap  . technically letus make an anamorphic adapter  but that does 1.33 and fits a gopro but is soon to be discontinued, moondogs make something similar for the iphones. their your cheapest options and i doubt they would fit to a 25mm . next step up is projector lens and associated lens clamps and filter holders then you have to either double focus or buy a single focus lens adapter plus diopters if you want to get closer . its probably not that much cheaper than just buying a real anamorphic lens to start with perhaps, if you take the added level of drama all the above entails . dragging up letus  name again they make a bigger anamorphic but its only 1.33 for 16,9 as well and $2600 not sure how wide it will go with lenses. slr magic seem to be  reasonable priced at the moment. but i not done much research on them either, thats about the extent of my knowledge maybe others can chime in with their knowledge.  personally the anamorphic stuff i see advertised on here seems to have additional gold plating and gold ionized lens coatings as well the prices people are asking for them, good luck to them i guess. i'm thinking i might have missed the cheap anamorphic lens bus by about 12-18 months i guess. i saw an iscorama 36 for $6000   on ebay last week. i would have to win the lottery or start robbing banks to afford one of those sigh. excuse me while i go quietly  and have a cry in my  glass of milk.

ps : cine glass was probably never cheap and it seems to have turned a corner and is heading up ,way way up

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7 hours ago, leslie said:

i'm not sure there is a cheap answer to that question

there are answers to your question, however i dont think any of them are cheap plus getting down to 25 mm is a big ask i think maybe im wrong but i doubt it will be cheap  . technically letus make an anamorphic adapter  but that does 1.33 and fits a gopro but is soon to be discontinued, moondogs make something similar for the iphones. their your cheapest options and i doubt they would APS-C to a 25mm . next step up is projector lens and associated lens clamps and filter holders then you have to either double focus or buy a single focus lens adapter plus diopters if you want to get closer . its probably not that much cheaper than just buying a real anamorphic lens to start with perhaps, if you take the added level of drama all the above entails . dragging up letus  name again they make a bigger anamorphic but its only 1.33 for 16,9 as well and $2600 not sure how wide it will go with lenses. slr magic seem to be  reasonable priced at the moment.

22

Love the post
- Yeah, I was advised on getting a Lomo square front (which is a non-projector lens setup) -- but where to get these and how to mount them and for what price?? I do not know but apparently these are the best option to shooting on a 35mm sensor size and get wide angles to 25mm
- on the modern end of this same approach there is the SLR Magic which does have a 2x front element screw on solution (I believe) but I don't know how wide they can go and they have a reversed nikon stlye focus pull and the marks on the dial are entirely silly with no ft or mm distances markers.
- For the projector lens route I was suggested the Kowa 16 series (3 different models numbers but are actually more-or-less the same)-- apparently, these do get down to 25mm on Micro 4/3 with a speed booster como but they are a 16mm projector lenses for starters... so it's alreay a far smaller image circle to start with and thus limiting the wide angle use on sensor sizes and 35mm cine lenses to start with.
- The 1.33 Letus pro does go as wide as 21mm -- which is amazing but I frankly have no interest in 1.33x squeezes or shooting on 16x9 sensors because the height is not the true Vfov as 4 perf 35mm (4:3 sensors) and would be like shooting the Arri Alexa classic with a 2x stretch. ~ big investment for a personal rig with not the desired results. On that note, Letus does have a 1.8x anamorphic front which is amazing but that still only derives 2.39:1 on a 4:3 sensor.
- On the single focus solutions front-- DNA-HD did just announce a new smaller adapter that is available now, but there is no test footage or confirmations on how wide it can go in combination with given scope and what format sizes it can fit up to (8mm, 16mm, 35mm) format wise.

All in all, there is still  a camera issue anyway-- there are no APS-C or APS-H cams that have a 4:3 mode aside from that Sigma and there are also no FF cams that have an APS-H crop + 4:3 combination mode (this would be ideal... and perhaps the new Panasonic's will have this sensor option)
- On the micro 4/3 route-- the gh5s is obviously the way to go, but I still am a bit unsure as to which speed booster I would need-- to create a crop factor that retains the FOV of APS-H  image sensor size at 26.7×17.9mm  --which again, is the closest digital equivalent sensor size I have found to the ideal (4 perf 35mm) of 23.16mm x 18.16mm
- So yeah... if I'd need to do M4/3 (before investing a crap ton of money into an entire rig) I'd just need to figure out for starters which speedbooster gets my FF lenses closest to 23.16mm x 18.16mm when the camera is set to 4:3 mode to shoot anamorphic. Haven't found this info yet.

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 a canon with magic lantern installed perhaps, but you would probably have to crop. there might be an experimental build with 4:3 i'm not sure. i have ml installed on an older canon used mostly for playing around with timelapse so i'm not really up with current versions of ml

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On 11/16/2018 at 6:50 PM, leslie said:

 a canon with magic lantern installed perhaps, but you would probably have to crop. there might be an experimental build with 4:3 i'm not sure. i have ml installed on an older canon used mostly for playing around with timelapse so i'm not really up with current versions of ml

Yeah that would be perfect-- don't know if it exists though: a 35mm 4:3 crop mode for anamorphic .... yes, please!? But... again on the ML's canon's -- they have NEVER figured out how to simultaneously jailbreak the stills function to actually take photos of what the liveview is seeing while even in video mode-- taking stills always reverts backs to 16x9 or 3:2
now of course, one can put stills mode into 4:3 FF but again, no custom multi-sensor crop modes were ever made for the stills mode-- WHICH SHOULD BE SO EASY, especially one can already do a 2.66 video crop mode in 1080p resolution of the 16x9 mode.... apply the same type of functions to stills should not be hard

I personally am holding out for what sigma does in the APS-H quattro Foveon cams-- I did see an article they are now changing ot the lieca mount and immediately making a L-EF adaptor
I'd also wait to see what Fuji does in APS-C after their x-t3. Perhaps a flagship model will have a larger APS-H mode
The sony a7siii -- who knows whenever that will be out but it is certainly a hopeful contender
And upcoming Panasonic FF's could implement their multi-sensor modes from the GH line ~the most likely breakthrough...so yup, 1-2 years wait time 😕

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I guess I don’t understand this discussion at all. You’re concerned about all this for stills mode on a camera? Just shoot full-frame and crop to 4:3 APS-H in post (if that’s what you want. I don’t get why you want APS-H specifically but whatever.) You have to post-process to de-squeeze anyway. 

Is it a monitoring issue? If you want to see what you’re shooting de-squeezed, there are plenty of cameras with outputs and external monitors that can hook up. 

Maths on the GH5 4:3 sensor and Speedboosters:

17.3 X 13mm

X0.64= 27X20mm

X0.71= 24.3X18.3mm

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On 11/20/2018 at 6:40 PM, Caleb Genheimer said:

I guess I don’t understand this discussion at all. You’re concerned about all this for stills mode on a camera? Just shoot full-frame and crop to 4:3 APS-H in post (if that’s what you want. I don’t get why you want APS-H specifically but whatever.) You have to post-process to de-squeeze anyway. 

Is it a monitoring issue? If you want to see what you’re shooting de-squeezed, there are plenty of cameras with outputs and external monitors that can hook up. 

Maths on the GH5 4:3 sensor and Speedboosters:

17.3 X 13mm

X0.64= 27X20mm

X0.71= 24.3X18.3mm

1

Ohh thank you so very much for this info!!

My whole thing is to get to a 4:3 mode on a digital sensor that is closest to the specs size of 4 perf 35mm film. This original anamorphic cinemascope is 23.16×18.16mm
So it looks like a X0.71 speed booster would be perfect for FF lenses on a m4/3 sensor since it results in 24.3×18.3mm
This is even closer than aps-H at 26.7×17.9mm 


Cool. So here is my question then: would this m4/3 + X0.71 speed booster combo allow for being able to go to wider focal lengths before vignetting when paired with FF lenses??
In other words, does this crop mode and focal reducer method solve the problem of the typical FF lens/FF sensor combo that can't go wider than 40-50mm lenses when using 2x scopes? 

I'd like to get down to 25mm focal length lenses to use and so I'm trying to find a method to get out of the larger FF sensor sizes (which is causing the problem) while not going smaller than traditional 35mm film. All these ana scopes were made for this format after all...

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On 12/8/2018 at 5:10 PM, Robinhood said:

Cool. So here is my question then: would this m4/3 + X0.71 speed booster combo allow for being able to go to wider focal lengths before vignetting when paired with FF lenses??

In other words, does this crop mode and focal reducer method solve the problem of the typical FF lens/FF sensor combo that can't go wider than 40-50mm lenses when using 2x scopes?  

I'd like to get down to 25mm focal length lenses to use and so I'm trying to find a method to get out of the larger FF sensor sizes (which is causing the problem) while not going smaller than traditional 35mm film. All these ana scopes were made for this format after all...

Your question is kind of confusing... I think the age old confusing topic of  'equivalency' might play a part here?

Anyways...generally speaking the widest I have seen people get is somewhere in between 45-50mm fullframe equivalent focal lengths...

Working with your proposed setup of a m43 sensor (crop factor 2) and 0.71 speedbooster, you end up with a final cropfactor of 2*0.71= 1.42 for the combination.

Calculating with 50mm then gives 50/1.42=35.2 meaning that on m43 with 0.71x speedbooster the widest taking lens will be around 35mm.
Working without speedbooster means you can use a 25mm focal length on M43 (as it translates to a 50mm equivalent FOV).

Hope this helps.

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Don't confuse focal length with field of view. There is NO advantage/disadvantage on ANY sensor size when it comes to field of view/angle of view (how “wide” of a view you get) through a scope. It will vignette at the EXACT SAME field of view no matter what size sensor you use. 

 

The change in useable focal length (in mm) on various sensor sizes in indeed due to “equivalency”, also referrers to as “crop factor.”

 

There is something to be said for larger sensors with regards to depth of field. If you want it shallower, larger sensors will be the ticket. 

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