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IronFilm

Is a Sony FS700 still worth buying in late 2018??

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46 minutes ago, MdB said:

Dismiss C300 on spec if you want, but it still creates great images.

The problem is if we just wave our hands and say "but it creates great images" then we could say the same about a BMPCC or even a GH2.  Where does it end? Thus I try to be objective as well and look at their features/specs/value.

Of course the C300 can still make nice images! And if a person handed one to me and told me to shoot with it then I'd happily do that. And heck, I'd even buy one if offered at the right price. (probably a sub US$1K price?)

However at the current prices the C300mk1

has zero appeal to me, would I want *one* C300mk1 vs two FS700? Easy choice!

 

46 minutes ago, MdB said:

IMO better than an FS700.

Better than internal FS700?? Of course!
But better than external 4K raw? Nope! 
 

46 minutes ago, MdB said:

C500 does that plus RAW and yes it does HFR with 7Q.

Not as extensive HFR as the FS700
 

46 minutes ago, MdB said:

Downside of the C500 is that it doesn't do much with the Shogun.

Exactly. The C500 body is more expensive and the whole set up with a recorder is more expensive as Atomos isn't as viable an option.

If the total cost of ownership of a C500 with 4K was the same as a FS700 with 4K then I might maybe be able to overlook the negatives of the C500 and choose it over the FS700. However at the moment there is a massive price gulf in the difference between a C500 and a FS700 when you sum it up. 

Would probably go for a FS7 or F5 instead for only an extra grand ish more in total than a complete C500 4K package. 

 

46 minutes ago, MdB said:

Noisy?

I meant in terms of audible noise. 

You just can't record great usable sound with the C500 in 4K after a certain point in time. 

However there are DIY hack work arounds, but it still is a strike against the C500. 

 

46 minutes ago, MdB said:

FS700 was technically ahead at the time. It still technically ahead.

Exactly.

46 minutes ago, MdB said:

As for $2k + $1k that's still basically 2x Pockets.

Are we talking AUD or USD? 
As if AUD that is less than 2x Pocket 4K cameras
Plus add in external NDs, that will spread out the gap further. (ignoring the whole hassle factor.... plenty of reasons to prefer the camcorder/cinema form factor vs a DSLR/mirrorless/pocket approach)

 

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

It's not enough anymore to say the C300 "creates great images" because, at this point, you can use a $500 G7 to create great images. Are there things about the C300's image that are better? Of course, but when it comes to the standard of image quality, virtually every camera maker has gotten to the level where you can get results only dreamed about 10 years ago AND on a budget!

We truly are fortunate / spoiled, given we're even able to have this conversation! 

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1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

It's not enough anymore to say the C300 "creates great images" because, at this point, you can use a $500 G7 to create great images. Are there things about the C300's image that are better? Of course, but when it comes to the standard of image quality, virtually every camera maker has gotten to the level where you can get results only dreamed about 10 years ago AND on a budget!

We truly are fortunate / spoiled, given we're even able to have this conversation! 

We are at a point now where there is in reality too many choices.  And we can ill afford to make mistakes, because just having the camera is probably the lest costly part of video overall unless you are buying a 8K Red or something like it LoL.

Back to the old, no perfect camera thing. I kind of wish 4K never came out. It sure does complicate buying, shooting decisions.

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19 hours ago, MdB said:

 

I have a very early preorder on the Pocket 4k but what I still like about the FS700 w/ odyssey is the internal ND's, two proper XLR inputs, a great quality monitor, S35mm sensor, 4k 50p and even 4K 100p in burst (I'm in a PAL country). 

Yes, its a bigger/more cumbersome  rig than the pocket4k, but then sometimes that's a benefit. I also shoot a fair bit on Red and that's no less cumbersome than the FS700 w/odyssey. I'm not going to pretend the FS700 is ergonomic but it depends what your use to I suppose. Also, I can't really see myself using the Pocket 4k in its basic form all that often anyway. I would need another monitor mounted to it as the non tilting built in one is unusable when using a cinesaddle or any position you can't see the screen straight on. I would also probably want a mattebox for ND's (not a fan of VariNds). Battery life May also be an issue on longer shoots and then I'd brobably want some sort of small cage with top handle for handling. Are these issues for everyone? Of course not, but for my use, the FS700 may still be the better camera of the two but I'll evaluate that when I have the Pocket 4k in hand. 

Some of the work I do uses the Sony F5 and f55 as an A Cam so the FS700 cuts in perfectly with them. 

While the c300 does shoot lovely images, it's frame rate limitations made it a non starter for the work I do. 

Please don't get on here making it sound like I'm bashing on any particular camera, I'm just outlining why one camera may be better for certain people. 

For me, the FS700 is still a perfectly great camera today just as the FS7, f5 and f55 are. The FS700 w/odyssey punches far far above its weight and judging it on its age or current second hand price is just wrong. 

I'm seeing FS700's w/ Odyssey's including 5+ batteries, 4x512GB CD SSD's, full cage etc going for $3500 AUD. I can't see the Pocket4k being any cheaper once I add a second monitor, batteries, the equivalent 4x500GB Cfast cards, ND's etc...but right now I can't be bothered doing the math.

What I am looking forward to with the Pocket4k is the colour science and the compressed RAW options. 

 

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On 7/20/2018 at 7:54 PM, IronFilm said:

has zero appeal to me, would I want *one* C300mk1 vs two FS700? Easy choice!

Same logic applies - 2x BMPCC 4K or 1x FS700? Easy choice!

On 7/20/2018 at 7:54 PM, IronFilm said:

Better than internal FS700?? Of course!
But better than external 4K raw? Nope! 

C500 RAW > FS700 RAW. C300 OOC > FS700 OOC. 

C500 and C300 are on a different level. FS700 is handicam / NEX group prosumer product. Don't need what the C300/C500 offer? Then FS700 is a fine choice. Offers better 'spec' and always has. Nothing new here. Plenty of professionals bought the C300/500 over the cheaper and 'better' spec'd FS700. 

On 7/20/2018 at 7:54 PM, IronFilm said:

If the total cost of ownership of a C500 with 4K was the same as a FS700 with 4K then I might maybe be able to overlook the negatives of the C500 and choose it over the FS700. However at the moment there is a massive price gulf in the difference between a C500 and a FS700 when you sum it up. 

If you don't need what the C500 offers, again the FS700 is a good choice. Not really sure what you're arguing about? Do you want to know if the FS700 is any good or do you want to try and 'prove' that it is better than everything else? 

On 7/20/2018 at 7:54 PM, IronFilm said:

You just can't record great usable sound with the C500 in 4K after a certain point in time. 

Hyperbole. 

On 7/20/2018 at 7:54 PM, IronFilm said:

Are we talking AUD or USD? 
As if AUD that is less than 2x Pocket 4K cameras
Plus add in external NDs, that will spread out the gap further. (ignoring the whole hassle factor.... plenty of reasons to prefer the camcorder/cinema form factor vs a DSLR/mirrorless/pocket approach)

Well I'm talking in AUD as that is my market. Pocket is $1585. FS700 is ~$2.2k+ plus Atomos which is $1k+ or Odessey which is $2k+. Really want to talk about NDs? Personally I'd just use them in-adapter for the most part. 

As for plenty of reasons to prefer the larger form factor - Sure! Except the FS700's form factor is universally panned for being absolutely rubbish. So that is a big minus - It's cheap, it's uncomfortable so none of the pluses of a larger body and then has the minuses that means it needs bigger grip gear for everything, every time you buy / hire things like gimbals etc you need the MUCH bigger and more expensive versions of everything, but lets quibble about the cost of NDs ;)

On 7/20/2018 at 10:59 PM, newfoundmass said:

It's not enough anymore to say the C300 "creates great images" because, at this point, you can use a $500 G7 to create great images.

So what IS required then if that isn't enough? Surely your whole point is that pretty much all gear is 'good enough' these days so it comes down to specific uses or features right? 

On 7/21/2018 at 5:26 AM, Tone1k said:

I have a very early preorder on the Pocket 4k but what I still like about the FS700 w/ odyssey is the internal ND's, two proper XLR inputs, a great quality monitor, S35mm sensor, 4k 50p and even 4K 100p in burst (I'm in a PAL country). 

I agree. The FS700 is still a great unit and those features are nice. BUT you can't break the FS700 + 7Q combo down to make it smaller, where you can build up the pocket. Pocket has a great monitor and adding one is cheap and light. S35 is achievable through speed booster anyway. Dual XLRs and some connectivity etc are definitely plusses, as are NDs and SDI and all that. If one can have both (or all) then go for it. If I'm only going to have one, I think the pocket is more flexible. 

On 7/21/2018 at 5:26 AM, Tone1k said:

Some of the work I do uses the Sony F5 and f55 as an A Cam so the FS700 cuts in perfectly with them. 

The FS700 is perfect in that case. Or an FS5 etc. 

On 7/21/2018 at 5:26 AM, Tone1k said:

While the c300 does shoot lovely images, it's frame rate limitations made it a non starter for the work I do

Certainly less of an issue with the C500. But yes, the FS700 was definitely better in the frame rate options. 

On 7/21/2018 at 5:26 AM, Tone1k said:

Please don't get on here making it sound like I'm bashing on any particular camera, I'm just outlining why one camera may be better for certain people. 

Same. I think the OP was already convinced to get an FS700, which is fine. I was only making some 'other' suggestions but they seem to be all wrong. I think they just wanted people to confirm how great the FS700 is. 

On 7/21/2018 at 5:26 AM, Tone1k said:

For me, the FS700 is still a perfectly great camera today just as the FS7, f5 and f55 are. The FS700 w/odyssey punches far far above its weight and judging it on its age or current second hand price is just wrong. 

It is awesome what they can do for the money. 

On 7/21/2018 at 5:26 AM, Tone1k said:

I'm seeing FS700's w/ Odyssey's including 5+ batteries, 4x512GB CD SSD's, full cage etc going for $3500 AUD. I can't see the Pocket4k being any cheaper once I add a second monitor, batteries, the equivalent 4x500GB Cfast cards, ND's etc...but right now I can't be bothered doing the math.

That unit was indeed a great deal and got snapped up in 5 minutes flat. That's hardly the norm. 

On 7/21/2018 at 5:26 AM, Tone1k said:

What I am looking forward to with the Pocket4k is the colour science and the compressed RAW options.

Same. 

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1 hour ago, MdB said:

 

Well I'm talking in AUD as that is my market. Pocket is $1585. FS700 is ~$2.2k+ plus Atomos which is $1k+ or Odessey which is $2k+. Really want to talk about NDs? Personally I'd just use them in-adapter for the most part. 

As for plenty of reasons to prefer the larger form factor - Sure! Except the FS700's form factor is universally panned for being absolutely rubbish. So that is a big minus - It's cheap, it's uncomfortable so none of the pluses of a larger body and then has the minuses that means it needs bigger grip gear for everything, every time you buy / hire things like gimbals etc you need the MUCH bigger and more expensive versions. 

The FS700 is perfect in that case. Or an FS5 etc. 

Certainly less of an issue with the C500. 

I actually don't find the FS700 uncomfortable to use. Most people trashing the ergonomics were using it in its basic form, with the built in EVF. Yes, you can get a 'cheap and light monitor for Pocket4k but it will be no match to Odyssey. If you want a screen as good with professional aids, you need something better than the cheap light hdmi monitors out there. 

In terms of rigging, same requirements as C500 which you were recommending no?

The FS5's 4k is 8bit so to get it to come anywhere near the FS700 w/odyssey you also need to get an Odyssey for the FS5. The FS5's raw output is also noisier than the FS700s and its double the price (Second hand). FS700 is a better match for FS7, F5 and F55 as a B Cam.

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1 hour ago, MdB said:

Hyperbole. 

No seriously, after a few minutes or so it gets loud when doing 4K (or even 2K), worse than a RED ONE which I barely tolerate. 

1 hour ago, MdB said:

I think they just wanted people to confirm how great the FS700 is. 

Or bring up a massive dealbreaker that I hadn't thought of already, which I feel hasn't happened yet. 

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color with fs700 plus raw update and external recording with shogun flame in 4K 422 prores (10bit) is massive.

would buy one if price was right. the external recording via raw update makes this an image quality monster for indy filmers.

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27 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

color with fs700 plus raw update and external recording with shogun flame in 4K 422 prores (10bit) is massive.

would buy one if price was right. the external recording via raw update makes this an image quality monster for indy filmers.

True, I would totally agree with your statement. But it is really Only good siting on a Tripod rigged the way it needs to be. I can't picture it on a Gimbal I could ever afford. So that is pretty damn limiting in this day and age compared to what the P4K should be able to do, even if the AF is crap. So in essence you are going back in time, I am not to sure that is a good idea for Me on my limited income.

But if you are into Slo Mo, I am not very often, well I can't argue against the FS700. It is the best at it that we could ever afford. And it does it damn well to boot.

 

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8 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

True, I would totally agree with your statement. But it is really Only good siting on a Tripod rigged the way it needs to be. I can't picture it on a Gimbal I could ever afford. So that is pretty damn limiting in this day and age compared to what the P4K should be able to do, even if the AF is crap. So in essence you are going back in time, I am not to sure that is a good idea for Me on my limited income.

But if you are into Slo Mo, I am not very often, well I can't argue against the FS700. It is the best at it that we could ever afford. And it does it damn well to boot.

 

I also agree with your statement...FS700 could be a nice canera to have.....but the size and weight make it a breal dealer today.....I have a R1 MX and I use it only for very specifics shoots....and in a tripod....I will also go for the P4K....I can do a lot more with something smaller.

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6 minutes ago, hijodeibn said:

I also agree with your statement...FS700 could be a nice canera to have.....but the size and weight make it a breal dealer today.....I have a R1 MX and I use it only for very specifics shoots....and in a tripod....I will also go for the P4K....I can do a lot more with something smaller.

The Red MX?, wow I always wanted one. Not sure about now, but it would be a damn good learning tool, and I would imagine it still gets the job done if you aren't in a hurry..

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16 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

The Red MX?, wow I always wanted one. Not sure about now, but it would be a damn good learning tool, and I would imagine it still gets the job done if you aren't in a hurry..

Absolutely, always do the job, and the RED RAW is your best friend when your lights screwed up, I am now planing to use it in black and white mode as a backup for an eClair S16 with 7222 and 7266, I know you know what I am talking about, if a shoot is screwed up for any reason, I am planing to use the R1 to emulate that part in post, the old R1 never disappointed me in the past and I am sure will not do it this time.....don't ask me how I am going to transfer the film.....but I am sure is going to be hell, prices today are from another world......I will have to become a student to get a good deal.....you know....desperate time, desperate measures....

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35 minutes ago, hijodeibn said:

I also agree with your statement...FS700 could be a nice canera to have.....but the size and weight make it a breal dealer today.....I have a R1 MX and I use it only for very specifics shoots....and in a tripod....I will also go for the P4K....I can do a lot more with something smaller.

RED ONE and FS700 are in completely different worlds when it comes to weight/size and power draw!
 

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10 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

True, I would totally agree with your statement. But it is really Only good siting on a Tripod rigged the way it needs to be. I can't picture it on a Gimbal I could ever afford. So that is pretty damn limiting in this day and age compared to what the P4K should be able to do, even if the AF is crap. So in essence you are going back in time, I am not to sure that is a good idea for Me on my limited income.

But if you are into Slo Mo, I am not very often, well I can't argue against the FS700. It is the best at it that we could ever afford. And it does it damn well to boot.

 

FS700 Only usable on a tripod? Nonsense! I use mine on the shoulder, on a cinesaddle, handheld in front of my chest, and on a ronin. On the ronin, you just mount the camera as per normal and the recorder becomes the monitor you would normally use anyway mounted on the cross bar.

While it's true you probably can't use a single handed gimbal, for me, that's a non issue. 

If you pfer a DSLR form factor, get the Pocket4k but if you prefer the feel of a proper cine camera, the FS700 w/odyssey is a fantastic choice. 

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On 7/23/2018 at 1:18 PM, Tone1k said:

I actually don't find the FS700 uncomfortable to use. Most people trashing the ergonomics were using it in its basic form, with the built in EVF. Yes, you can get a 'cheap and light monitor for Pocket4k but it will be no match to Odyssey. If you want a screen as good with professional aids, you need something better than the cheap light hdmi monitors out there. 

If you have a decent camera the aids are already in place, so a basic monitor (with a decent panel) will suffice. No it mightn't be an odyssey, but again you are paying a lot more for that combo. You can alternatively get a very nice monitor that is still smaller and lighter and cheaper (and potentially even better). 

On 7/23/2018 at 1:18 PM, Tone1k said:

In terms of rigging, same requirements as C500 which you were recommending no?

Well no. I said I was interested in the C500 and FS700 but landed on the Pocket 4K. I may have also suggested the C500 is an alternative model that has some benefits (not the least being the significantly great connectivity to the outside world that the FS700 is limited in). The C500 would require the same rigging and Odyssey as the FS700. As a package would also be somewhat more expensive (but not that different, which is why I mentioned it). 

On 7/23/2018 at 1:18 PM, Tone1k said:

The FS5's 4k is 8bit so to get it to come anywhere near the FS700 w/odyssey you also need to get an Odyssey for the FS5. The FS5's raw output is also noisier than the FS700s and its double the price (Second hand). FS700 is a better match for FS7, F5 and F55 as a B Cam.

The FS5 is a lot smaller and can be broken down into a MUCH smaller system than the FS700 @ 4K. So the FS5 has a distinct advantage there if you need flexibility. First I've heard about it being noisier, only heard the other direction. Body is double the price, sure, but once you add the Odyssey you're looking at a much smaller gap. Add all the other stuff and the $1500-2k AUD difference becomes quite small indeed. 

On 7/23/2018 at 1:32 PM, IronFilm said:

Or bring up a massive dealbreaker that I hadn't thought of already, which I feel hasn't happened yet.

It sounds like you've found your camera then! No seriously, you were already sold on it and don't want to hear otherwise... So why not buy it already? 

Personally these are the pros and cons: 

Pros

- Does RAW and HFR pretty cheap

- S35 that match other Sony cams well

 

Cons

- Handles poorly

- Average colour (certainly fixable in post - if you like spending all your time fixing things in post this might be a plus)

- Clunky for grip (needs bigger grip than smaller setups, which adds cost and reduces flexibility)

- Low-ish build quality

- Expensive compared to some newer options

- Middle of the road connectivity, better than a Pocket worse than C300/C500

 

Those two Pros many very well outweigh those smaller Cons for you. As such just go and buy one. 

12 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

True, I would totally agree with your statement. But it is really Only good siting on a Tripod rigged the way it needs to be. I can't picture it on a Gimbal I could ever afford. So that is pretty damn limiting in this day and age compared to what the P4K should be able to do, even if the AF is crap.

Agreed. AF isn't terribly important but YMMV. The FS700 CAN be rigged up but it's a bit of a kludge. It's an awkward shape and design. 

2 hours ago, Tone1k said:

FS700 Only usable on a tripod? Nonsense! I use mine on the shoulder, on a cinesaddle, handheld in front of my chest, and on a ronin. On the ronin, you just mount the camera as per normal and the recorder becomes the monitor you would normally use anyway mounted on the cross bar.

How does it go with lenses in this config? The ones I've seen you can only really put very small lenses up front. Adding heavy glass or follow focus etc just makes it unusable on the Ronin from what I've seen. Yes obviously the monitor can mount on the bars. Still a Pocket 4K would be a lot more flexible (and fit easier and better balanced and use a smaller, cheaper, easier to move, easier to find / beg / borrow / rent / buy gimbal with low cost wireless follow focuses built in) than the FS700. FS700 is definitely doable on all sorts of grip, just every bit of grip needs to be the bigger, sturdier, heavier, more expensive, harder to find / borrow / rent / barter gear. Once you've got all that you suddenly need a dedicated production van for the camera dept and a second and third team members and so on. Shooting a bigger camera has compromises all the way down the line. If you are shooting bigger productions then no worries - But if you're shooting bigger productions then you aren't shooting on the budget camera you bought on eBay either. 

It makes sense to stay smaller where you can unless there is the need to go bigger. Having the option of both (as you will) is also nice to have. If you've only got one, smaller is better. 

All-in-one is also better. 

2 hours ago, Tone1k said:

If you pfer a DSLR form factor, get the Pocket4k but if you prefer the feel of a proper cine camera, the FS700 w/odyssey is a fantastic choice.

Agreed. Although I would argue that the FS700 doesn't in fact feel like a proper cinema camera. 

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Saying the FS700 is no good for a solo shooter is also saying the FS7, F5, F55, Ursa Mini Pro or any other camera that doesn't fit on a handheld gimbal.. Is no good either.

Your comments about a decent camera will already have decent aids in place,  show me a dslr sized camera that has a great fully articulating screen, false colour, waveform, accurate peaking, full LUT support etc 

In terms of needing Follow focus motors and all that other parafenalia you mention... That's just not the case. In fact, you can put a small Sony E-mount lens on the FS700, mount it to a ronin or similar and have perfectly usable autofocus (with face tracking!) if thats what your into. Try doing that with the Pocket! 

I said 'if you prefer the feel of a proper cine camera'... The FS700 odyssey combo feels more like a cine camera compared to small handheld set ups in its build, pro level features (with the odyssey) etc. 'if you prefer it' meaning closer to. 

All cameras are good options, I know the FS700 can make me money, not sure about the Pocket yet. I'll see when I receive it.

It really depends what you need and where your priorities are as to which you choose. But please don't spread false information by saying things like 'you'll need a whole grip truck or camera van to use it'. 

 

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2 hours ago, MdB said:

As such just go and buy one. 

Indeed. I will! Am following up a lead or two I have on a camera.
But am in no rush. As I don't need a new camera. So will wait for the perfect bargain.

 

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I snagged a fs700u earlier this year for really really cheap and have really been enjoying it.

I  intend to have it R upgraded and get either the 7q or shogun inferno, but I've really enjoyed having it so far.

I bought it because I wanted a proper camcorder style video camera with XLRs, NDs, external buttons for everything and all the other features that come with such.

It hasn't disappointed in those areas at all.

I've gotten some focal reducers and dumb adapters and can mount any/all my lenses on it.

I do not have any native e-mount glass, but wouldn't mind picking something up 

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8 hours ago, Tone1k said:

FS700 Only usable on a tripod? Nonsense! I use mine on the shoulder, on a cinesaddle, handheld in front of my chest, and on a ronin. On the ronin, you just mount the camera as per normal and the recorder becomes the monitor you would normally use anyway mounted on the cross bar.

While it's true you probably can't use a single handed gimbal, for me, that's a non issue. 

If you pfer a DSLR form factor, get the Pocket4k but if you prefer the feel of a proper cine camera, the FS700 w/odyssey is a fantastic choice. 

Hell I can probably put a Arri Alexa on my Shoulder, Can't be as big as ENG cameras. But to say it is convenient or manageable solo, well sure a person can do anything if you want, but some ideas are, well, silly.a

Like I said, on a Tripod it is a great camera for the money, not a fan of the color science in camera, but this is a whole new world of video since that camera came out.

And yeah I love Cine Cameras layouts also, but at my age, and being a man, how I look, it ain't happening anymore unless I want to take shots of trees in a corn field! No kids there I hope.

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